47 replies to this topic

[marklaspalmas]

Im going to set about compiling a list of all rugby league matches played at professional level in the UK. On a rough calculation of about 700 games a year (round about 30 pro clubs playing 20 home games a year plus cup ties and rep. games) over 110+ years there will have been up to 80,000 games played.

Has anyone else set about doing a similar thing? Perhaps just for their own club? I'd like to hear from you.

Ta.

PS: Make sure any comments about how sad I am/ what an anorak I am/ the necessity of me obtaining "a life" are witty & original.

[paley]

Make sure any comments about how sad I am/ what an anorak I am/ the necessity of me obtaining "a life" are witty & original.

Damn, foiled again

[marklaspalmas]

Damn, foiled again

I was relying on you, too.

You were on rare form here:

What passes for repartee these days on TRL

[Derwent]

You can get all of the St Helens info off www.saints.org.uk

Edited by Derwent, 05 October 2007 - 07:50 PM.

[marklaspalmas]

You can get all of the St Helens info off www.saints.org.uk

Yes, very  good site that. Oldham have a good one too. And Wigan. Any other clubs?

[Derwent]

I can put you in touch with a guy who has done something similar for all of Workington's games. PM me if you want details.

[paley]

I can put you in touch with a guy who has done something similar for all of Workington's games.

Who wouldn't love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation?

Edited by paley, 05 October 2007 - 09:31 PM.

[shaun mc]

The Rugby League Record Keepers Club did all that n the 80's - a record of every game and the teams and scorers since 1895.
As you will appreciate there are some games where no records exist, but from memory the RLRKC had about 99% of games covered. The games since their survey ae easily accessible.

[hindle xiii]

I was relying on you, too.

You were on rare form here:

What passes for repartee these days on TRL

I set 'em up and he just knocks 'em outta the park.

[The Parksider]

The Rugby League Record Keepers Club did all that n the 80's - a record of every game and the teams and scorers since 1895.
As you will appreciate there are some games where no records exist, but from memory the RLRKC had about 99% of games covered. The games since their survey ae easily accessible.

Irvine Saxton from Featherstone organised all that.

How can one access the data today though??

It was a marvellous statistical mega project.

Mark - it's been done mate??  Didn't cha know?

[marklaspalmas]

The Rugby League Record Keepers Club did all that n the 80's - a record of every game and the teams and scorers since 1895.
As you will appreciate there are some games where no records exist, but from memory the RLRKC had about 99% of games covered. The games since their survey ae easily accessible.

Are they though? AFAIK the excellent RKC published a series of booklets which are now collectors items and extremely hard to get hold of. They also packed up in 1990, 17 years ago.

[Steve May]

I've PM'd you on this.

I am interested - being a geek, this is right up my street  

[marklaspalmas]

My idea to begin with was to put together a Fev version of the Saints stats website. I have all the data, teams, scorers, etc. but need to put it all onto the computer.

Then I was thinking this should be a league wide thing. I had a trawl round and found that (in different formats) Saints, Wigan and Oldham are well covered. I'd be happy to hear of any other club similarly well covered. It would be a question of the enthusiasts of each club doing the same. There should definitely be a site for all the rep. games played, counties, tour, international, etc.

I know all about the RKC and their work, but it really is difficult to get hold of the stuff they produced. I asked Tony Collins about re-publishing the booklets to kickstart interest, and while he agreed in principle, he wasn't sure of the financial viability and seemed wary about being landed with the job of co-ordinating such a project. The RFL does have archive copies of all the RKC stuff. IMO Irvin Saxton's great achievement, apart from hitting the library archives hard, was bringing together the individual statto's onto a team project. They packed up in 1990, but this club really needs reviving to go online.

My idea is now this. Use TRL as a focal point to put together a group, at least one statto for each club. Then go to Tony Collins and say, look we've got this group, let's have a meeting, decide on formats, website hosting, whatever, open the RFL archives to the group and get typing. Folk would have to volunteer to take on defunct clubs, but Im sure after a year or so's work, 30 people could put together a database of every club, every match, every player, every point. Awesome.

[shaun mc]

I have the majority (bar about 5-6 seasons I think) of the RLRKC booklets that were published since 1895.
Some are simple photocopies of booklet pages.
Yorkshire Programmes used to have some for sale, but Tony has since ceased trading, or was bought out. Maybe he's on here?

I agree this all needs to on-line as a resource. The attendances/referees and other details also need to be added. The games where details were missing or subsequently changed (these were published as part of qtly RLRKC newsletter which I have some) needs to be managed and verified. Who will verify and do the research?
I couldn't commit any time to do this for at least 6 months. I've just chnaged jobs, bought a house and am getting married in 8 weeks.

A website needs funding and copyright clearance, so those who access could be charged a small fee, or an organisation (RFL or LE) could fund it?

[tonyXIII]

I think this would be a great resource, but it will be a mammoth undertaking.
However, you don't need to finish it before publishing it. You could leave details as 'unknown' and invite people with the relevant knowledge to contact the 'manager'. This way, the database would grow steadily. You could do it club by club and then, when club X is one of few not covered, one of its supporters would be shamed into coming forward with the info.
It is vital, though, that the format is defined beforehand, so I think the idea of interested parties meeting is a good one.
I, personally, don't have any such records, so I don't think I can help. However, I wish you every success and I will be keen to see the results of your labours - it will be a herculean task. Good luck.

[marklaspalmas]

I'd like to keep this thread on the front page for a bit longer. Thanks to those who've got back to me so far.

What we're looking for is one statto from every club who has access to their club's complete playing record and is willing to transfer all that into some format for use on a collective website.

Ill post an update soon on the clubs covered thus far.

[Steve May]

tonyXIII is right.

I think it would be worth focusing on getting the data format right but leaving blanks to be filled in later and just putting things up quickly - probably the results of matches will be enough.

Then we can fill in details later, like team line ups, photos, match reports etc.

I'm chatting to a colleague of mine next week about data formats.  He's a developer who works with on line databases (catalogues and that sort of thing) so he knows his stuff.

I have a few records for Huddersfield BTW.

[marklaspalmas]

tonyXIII is right.

I think it would be worth focusing on getting the data format right but leaving blanks to be filled in later and just putting things up quickly - probably the results of matches will be enough.

Then we can fill in details later, like team line ups, photos, match reports etc.

I'm chatting to a colleague of mine next week about data formats.  He's a developer who works with on line databases (catalogues and that sort of thing) so he knows his stuff.

I have a few records for Huddersfield BTW.

Absolutely agree that that's the way to go. Once the format is in place, individual contributors can go at their own pace on their own club. Many statto's will have their own timeline in passing their data onto computer depending on work, free-time, etc.

I get a bit lost on the teccie stuff, but if a skeleton site is set up and contributors can work on it as and when then the project could take off.

This has obviously already been done at some clubs (Saints, Wigan, Oldham). Perhaps a bigger version of one of their sites would do the trick.

Plenty of cross-referencing required though, allowing people to consult by season, by player, by club, etc.

Tis a huge job. 110 years, 80,000 games. A wildish guess of around 20 to 25,000 players.

[shaun mc]

The work already done by the RLKRKC has got to be the start off point as its already there in print and has been verified. PLus it covered 95 or so out of a total of 112 seasons.

Every team and scorer since the RLRKC project closed is either in RL Express of the Rugby Leaguer.

If the project starts from scratch again who is going to verify it? Who says who is right?

A lot of work was put into the games where teams/scorers were missing, where AN Others appeared and where the data was just wrong, as well the huge amount of research required for the data for 000's of games.

[marklaspalmas]

The work already done by the RLKRKC has got to be the start off point as its already there in print and has been verified. PLus it covered 95 or so out of a total of 112 seasons.

Every team and scorer since the RLRKC project closed is either in RL Express of the Rugby Leaguer.

If the project starts from scratch again who is going to verify it? Who says who is right?

A lot of work was put into the games where teams/scorers were missing, where AN Others appeared and where the data was just wrong, as well the huge amount of research required for the data for 000's of games.

Quite right. I don't think there could be any point starting again "from scratch", though Im not sure any statto ever actually does that.

It's a question of re-formatting all the available data.

Most fans/stattos have lists for their own club. A lucky few have the RKC booklets from the 1980s.

What Im proposing is a database with all the info on.

We need a template created which statto's of each club could then use to input the data so that every club ends up with a database in the same format.

If it's done properly, these databases can then be cross referenced to get one giant databse for the whole game (don't shoot me down in flames, Im no teccie, but that's what's needed).

What we have at the mo' is dedicated fans of each club setting up statistical websites linked to their club. That's fine, but if every club used the same template/foramt the data could be drawn together to make a reference for the whole sport.