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#21 Phil Stone

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 06:43 PM

Start by making sure EVERY club in a particular division is playing by the same rules. Take this new club in Wales for example.IF they are allowed extra Aussies the question should be asked WHY? If our Australian cousins can travel half way around the world to play in Wales i'm sure that there are a couple of dozen British players who would travel a couple of hundred miles to do the same.
Also, if a club is happy to start in the Championship (Toulouse) then they should accept that they are not exempt from relegation.In my opinion ALL new clubs should start at the bottom and if they are good enough, EARN promotion.I agree with Bob that P&R to SL has to be reintroduced.

#22 jamescolin

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 06:59 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stone @ Dec 12 2009, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Start by making sure EVERY club in a particular division is playing by the same rules. Take this new club in Wales for example.IF they are allowed extra Aussies the question should be asked WHY? If our Australian cousins can travel half way around the world to play in Wales i'm sure that there are a couple of dozen British players who would travel a couple of hundred miles to do the same.
Also, if a club is happy to start in the Championship (Toulouse) then they should accept that they are not exempt from relegation.In my opinion ALL new clubs should start at the bottom and if they are good enough, EARN promotion.I agree with Bob that P&R to SL has to be reintroduced.

And I agree as well. The question was HOW are we to achieve it. That why I said is the threat of a breakaway sufficient to make them wake up. I think we are all of the same mind. But getting the powers that be to move from their entrenched position we need to take action of some sort . All the protestation in the world won't make a scrap of difference. A combined Championship proposal that 'treat us fairly or we are gone' might work. But we need SOME form of action or the clubs in the Championship are going nowhere. All the things mentioned, we protest about. but they happen anyway. So protesting is no good. Something stronger is required. The real question is have the Chairmen of the Championship clubs got the b......s to take a united front or are they split because there isa faint hope they might win promotion. Divide and conquer.

#23 DMS

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:23 PM

I honestly believe that RL at part time level is fast approaching a critical moment. We have several clubs in real trouble. The fan base is not increasing in real terms. The RL heirarchy seem oblivious to the problems below SL. With a move to licensing we have removed any natural fairness in our game, this has lead to legions of fans leaving our game.
We also have the threat of Union moving to summer, the first murmurings have already started. If they do move this will put us in direct competition with a sport that has a lot more support from the establishment than we can ever hope to get. They have a far better international scene than we do. The tv broadcasters will fall over themselves to get union on board.
I've felt for a few years now that RL at part time level has a very bleak future. What's the answer, I haven't a clue. But like Mark i don't think a breakaway will happen and personally i don't think it would benefit us.
I now only follow FEV. I've lost all interest in anything else to do with RL. While there is a FEV i'll continue to go. If there's no FEV then i'll go back to the second greatest game in the world and give RL not one thought.
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#24 Bob Fowler

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:06 PM

One reason thta R.U. has an edge over us is that it is played at school level throughout the country and is the first introduction to Rugby of any kind for most lads. I was fortunate enough to have a father who was a dedicated Rovers fans, but when I was 11 years old, I didn't really understand the logistics of the game and had to play Union. I always said I would rather play Union and watch league and obviously over the years I changed. However, the grammar schools of my era bred many of todays media executives and the league game had Eddie Waring to promote the game. Eddie knew his rugby league but became ridiculed for his mannerisms. What we need more than any Expansions is the right people in marketing to promote the game throughout the country. Our game has in my mind been prostituted by get rich quick guys who haven't cared about the "big" picture. We need to promote the game from junior level to Super League if that means gimmicks then so be it. Keighley did well in the mid 90's and promoted the game to a level not seen by many before, it worked for them but like a few other clubs their reward was ignored in favour of Paris and London. The only thing that will bring crowds in is a winning team with enough energy to do constant promotions. Some may say that's flogging a dead horse in Featherstone, so let's move the goal posts, let's make coming to watch Rovers an experience and make new fans welcome. Many clubs are far behind promoting the game due to having to watch their pennies , but a little spent on this will go a long way. We the supporters can do our bit and should enhance the club in it's ventures in any way we can. The RFL are embarrased by the Crusaders debacle ( I was told this by someone from Red Hall) but have to stick to supporting the team they brought into Super League, they are not happy at all and Crusaders may find difficuly in maintaining their status next time round. We need good media coverage both by T.V and radio, we need talented marketing people and we need respect for the fans of the game.
To be a ROVER is a privilege not to be taken lightly, with fans like ours, we will always be honoured.

#25 marklaspalmas

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:30 PM

I agree with DMS in that the semi professional game (currently 22 clubs) is facing up to a number of difficult questions as to whta role and purpose it serves.

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to make a list of the real issues involved here. Obviously feelings are running high, but if we avoid the rhetoric about shambles/buffoons and level playing fields, it'll make it easier to debate the points.

SO far on this thread we've had....

1. No automatic P&R between SL and CC.

2. Finances are poor at some CC clubs

3. Attendances are poor at some CC clubs

4. Expansion clubs get exemption from import quotas.

5. Voting rights at the RFL favour SL clubs.

Any other important issues?

 

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#26 Robin Evans

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:52 PM

Dual contract/feeder clubs??
"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

#27 oldrover

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 01:01 PM

different rules in different divisions, (playoffs, bonus pionts etc.)
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#28 marklaspalmas

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE
Dual contract/feeder clubs??


Yes, this is a new one, but we'll have to see.

QUOTE
different rules in different divisions, (playoffs, bonus pionts etc.)


BPs right, not sure what you mean by the playoff differences OR.

So updated list:

1. No automatic P&R between SL and CC.

2. Finances are poor at some CC clubs

3. Attendances are poor at some CC clubs

4. Expansion clubs get exemption from import quotas.

5. Voting rights at the RFL favour SL clubs.

6. Dual contract system

7. Bonus points

Any more?

 

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#29 LOWFIELD

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:30 PM

In the challenge cup super league teams are allowed to play more foreign players than CC clubs.

#30 oldrover

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Dec 13 2009, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, this is a new one, but we'll have to see.



BPs right, not sure what you mean by the playoff differences OR.

So updated list:

1. No automatic P&R between SL and CC.

2. Finances are poor at some CC clubs

3. Attendances are poor at some CC clubs

4. Expansion clubs get exemption from import quotas.

5. Voting rights at the RFL favour SL clubs.

6. Dual contract system

7. Bonus points

Any more?


in the championship all the top teams go into the playoffs, but in championship 1 (or whatever were calling them these days) the team that finishes top does not. they get no income from playoffs. i don't know if prize money for winning the league out weighs what can be earned from winning the playoffs (prize money +gate money). maybe this comes under the p&r banner.
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#31 marklaspalmas

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 08:01 PM

QUOTE (oldrover @ Dec 13 2009, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
in the championship all the top teams go into the playoffs, but in championship 1 (or whatever were calling them these days) the team that finishes top does not. they get no income from playoffs. i don't know if prize money for winning the league out weighs what can be earned from winning the playoffs (prize money +gate money). maybe this comes under the p&r banner.


Right, gotcha. But surely they'd rather go straight up to the higher league than risk the playoffs? It does seem odd though at times. Fev probably had a better time of it winning the 2007 playoffs than the Welsh did winning the league.

 

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#32 jamescolin

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 10:23 PM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Dec 13 2009, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Right, gotcha. But surely they'd rather go straight up to the higher league than risk the playoffs? It does seem odd though at times. Fev probably had a better time of it winning the 2007 playoffs than the Welsh did winning the league.

It is still a question of HOW? Before there is a scheme it is all wishful thinking.

#33 marklaspalmas

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (jamescolin @ Dec 13 2009, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is still a question of HOW? Before there is a scheme it is all wishful thinking.


What's wishful thinking? We haven't said owt yet. Just outlining a few of the major gripes, that's all so far.

 

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#34 DMS

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 02:47 PM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Dec 13 2009, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, this is a new one, but we'll have to see.



BPs right, not sure what you mean by the playoff differences OR.

So updated list:

1. No automatic P&R between SL and CC.

2. Finances are poor at some CC clubs

3. Attendances are poor at some CC clubs

4. Expansion clubs get exemption from import quotas.

5. Voting rights at the RFL favour SL clubs.

6. Dual contract system

7. Bonus points

Any more?

I'll give this a go Mark.
1. Re-introduce P+R subject to the promoted club fulfilling ground requirements. I do believe a club should have certain minimum standards.

2. Re-distribute finances on a fairer basis throughout league. Maybe on a sliding scale based on league positions.

3. I'm sure with P+R coming back that would give a surge to attendances. Though this does in someways rely on the club being successful. Extra finances would also allow the club to spend more on promoting themselves.

4.Overseas players to be reduced to 2 for ALL clubs. Overseas coaches would count as one. Expansion clubs should enter RL at Championship 1 level though i would give them extra help in promoting and managing their club. Maybe paid from central funds.

5. I don't know what the voting rights of clubs are now but i do not see how one vote per club is wrong. Providing they are full members of RL.

6. Dual contracts should be stopped immediately. Introduce a loan system that is fair and easy to understand.

&. Either introduce bonus points for ALL teams or abandon them.

Over to you people.
"FEVVED UP AND RARING TO GO"

#35 marklaspalmas

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 06:23 PM

QUOTE (DMS @ Dec 14 2009, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll give this a go Mark.
1. Re-introduce P+R subject to the promoted club fulfilling ground requirements. I do believe a club should have certain minimum standards.

2. Re-distribute finances on a fairer basis throughout league. Maybe on a sliding scale based on league positions.

3. I'm sure with P+R coming back that would give a surge to attendances. Though this does in someways rely on the club being successful. Extra finances would also allow the club to spend more on promoting themselves.

4.Overseas players to be reduced to 2 for ALL clubs. Overseas coaches would count as one. Expansion clubs should enter RL at Championship 1 level though i would give them extra help in promoting and managing their club. Maybe paid from central funds.

5. I don't know what the voting rights of clubs are now but i do not see how one vote per club is wrong. Providing they are full members of RL.

6. Dual contracts should be stopped immediately. Introduce a loan system that is fair and easy to understand.

&. Either introduce bonus points for ALL teams or abandon them.

Over to you people.


Good effort mate.

1. Agree with you all the way there.

2. By this I suppose you mean more SKY cash for the CC clubs. It'd be nice for sure, but Im not sure how we could justify this. SKY pays so SL games. We get 100K per club for CC games. Seems about right in terms of market value.

3. An eternal problem. Im not sure how closely attendances are related to P&R between SL & CC. The clubs have got to work hard at this.

4. There are too many imports in SL I agree, but that's their problem. Our league has it about right. With reagrd to expansion clubs getting a dispensation, well that's a difficult one. Celtic & Gateshead/whoever stuffing their teams with aussies doesn't look good, but then there is no local pool of talent for those clubs to draw on so where do they get the players. TBH I think you've got to give them a short term dispensation. Problem is that many expansion clubs find it too hard to move beyond that and to start producing their own players.

5. TBH I don't even know what issues get voted on at the RL council. The board of directors/chief exec. seem to decide everything

6. This is a new thing, so let's see. They're certainly open to abuse, but it may benefit us with the likes of Coady, etc.

7. We've had a couple of years of Bonus Points and I think they're ######.

 

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#36 Bob Fowler

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 07:37 PM

I can see NO problem in gaining a Super League licence at all it's simple.

Show the Lincecee's that we play at Elland Road
That we have a 3million pound interest free overdraft
That we will give work to as many Antipodeans that the NRL doesn't need,
That we will learn to speak Welsh or even Galic
Hire Richard Lewis and Nigel Woods as CEO and performance manager
Play one game at Elland Road tell them it's not suiotable and move back to Post oFfice Road
Form a new team in South Leeds (call them South Leeds or something) play them at RoundhayPark ( Which is in NOrth Leeds)
Hire Tony Smith as assistant Coach ( again)
Tell all Castleford and Wakefield fans that their new grounds won't be up to standard.
Then Wait for the letters in the rugby papers, but no-one will care the damage is done.

All Tongue in cheek but I'm so fed up with the whole thing , that I can't wait for them to revive Paris now to complete my despair.

Edited by Bob Fowler, 14 December 2009 - 07:38 PM.

To be a ROVER is a privilege not to be taken lightly, with fans like ours, we will always be honoured.

#37 Phil Stone

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:22 AM

http://news.bbc.co.u...ers/8412976.stm

an article on the BBC with comments from Jonathan Davis

#38 Pride & Heritage

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:26 AM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Dec 13 2009, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, this is a new one, but we'll have to see.



BPs right, not sure what you mean by the playoff differences OR.

So updated list:

1. No automatic P&R between SL and CC.

2. Finances are poor at some CC clubs

3. Attendances are poor at some CC clubs

4. Expansion clubs get exemption from import quotas.

5. Voting rights at the RFL favour SL clubs.

6. Dual contract system

7. Bonus points

Any more?


8. Approval of the visa's for overseas players last year, which turned out to be wrong resulting in the Celtic deportations, it is also deafeningly quiet regarding the other 13 or so other clubs who had also signed players using the incorrect visas.

9. A salary cap system, which is not ensuring clubs are avoiding financial difficulty, numerous clubs in all divisions are all reporting financial issues.

10. Abysmal attendances for the internationals.

11. The "Magic Weekend" is always reported as a resounding success with a gate of around 60000 across the 2 days, but I'd love to know how many people from the areas where the "weekend" takes place attend, most of the supporters of the clubs attend which would account for the majority of these 60000 IMO. This does not a constitute a success to me.

12. Finishing top of the league does not make you championship winners, that is decided by 1 game, the final, at the end of the season. Surely the best team is the one who consistantly, over the whole season, wins more games than anyone else.

13. A cup competition (NRC) which stops and starts throughout the season resulting in several weeks without a game for most clubs, and a lack of interest with most supporters, due to it being so disjointed.

14. Toulouse being allowed to start in the middle Division instead of the bottom tier, and they are exempt from relegation at the expense of teams around them.

....... If the 14 SL clubs vote for removing every other clubs from existence there is nothing the rest can do. They could also decide with the financial situation as it is at the current time, to keep all of the money from Sky next year if they see fit, then what?

Couple this to the fact that it doesn't matter even if you win the right to join SL on the playing field by winning the league ala Barrow last year, that avenue for success has been removed too, with the introduction of the licencing system with no promotion and relegation.

It saddens me to think that the selected few teams have been allowed to get away with this injustice and closed shop mentality for so long.

The argument has always been the likes of Batley would never compete at SL level, and that is probably true, as it stands, however a baloon payment was payed to Castleford when they were relegated from SL. How that could ever be justified is beyond me? Surely the best way to improve the game would be to pay some kind of baloon payment to help the newly promoted SL side to compete at a higher level. I'm talking about real investment from the RFL, to develop the club's infrastructure, not just short term with playing staff or just enough money to fund a team full of journeymen SL cast offs like Widnes were full of a couple of years back, but help with the set up of junior ranks from under 9's to open age teams, with close links to BARLA. Help with marketing and community development, the kind of work that is going off in development areas to help expand the game, and thus trying to improve the club long term. The stronger the game in the heartlands, the better the opportunity to expand the game in the future to non RL areas. Huge plaudits must go to the development work in the communities that already goes on by clubs themsleves, but with extra resources provided by the RFL it begs the question what improvements could be made to what is already happening.

Sorry if my input is not really welcomed on here, but I started a similar thread on the Batley Website and I wanted to lend a bit of support, so I hope it's welcomed, and to let you know that you're not on your own with your feelings regarding the state of the game.

For what it's worth I believe the only way forward is to break away for SL, but the issue as someone has already stated is the 100k each club is getting from sky at the moment, but for how long we will continue to recieve this payment is anyones guess.

#39 Andrew Vause

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 11:07 AM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Dec 15 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
8. Approval of the visa's for overseas players last year, which turned out to be wrong resulting in the Celtic deportations, it is also deafeningly quiet regarding the other 13 or so other clubs who had also signed players using the incorrect visas.

9. A salary cap system, which is not ensuring clubs are avoiding financial difficulty, numerous clubs in all divisions are all reporting financial issues.

10. Abysmal attendances for the internationals.

11. The "Magic Weekend" is always reported as a resounding success with a gate of around 60000 across the 2 days, but I'd love to know how many people from the areas where the "weekend" takes place attend, most of the supporters of the clubs attend which would account for the majority of these 60000 IMO. This does not a constitute a success to me.

12. Finishing top of the league does not make you championship winners, that is decided by 1 game, the final, at the end of the season. Surely the best team is the one who consistantly, over the whole season, wins more games than anyone else.

13. A cup competition (NRC) which stops and starts throughout the season resulting in several weeks without a game for most clubs, and a lack of interest with most supporters, due to it being so disjointed.

14. Toulouse being allowed to start in the middle Division instead of the bottom tier, and they are exempt from relegation at the expense of teams around them.

....... If the 14 SL clubs vote for removing every other clubs from existence there is nothing the rest can do. They could also decide with the financial situation as it is at the current time, to keep all of the money from Sky next year if they see fit, then what?

Couple this to the fact that it doesn't matter even if you win the right to join SL on the playing field by winning the league ala Barrow last year, that avenue for success has been removed too, with the introduction of the licencing system with no promotion and relegation.

It saddens me to think that the selected few teams have been allowed to get away with this injustice and closed shop mentality for so long.

The argument has always been the likes of Batley would never compete at SL level, and that is probably true, as it stands, however a baloon payment was payed to Castleford when they were relegated from SL. How that could ever be justified is beyond me? Surely the best way to improve the game would be to pay some kind of baloon payment to help the newly promoted SL side to compete at a higher level. I'm talking about real investment from the RFL, to develop the club's infrastructure, not just short term with playing staff or just enough money to fund a team full of journeymen SL cast offs like Widnes were full of a couple of years back, but help with the set up of junior ranks from under 9's to open age teams, with close links to BARLA. Help with marketing and community development, the kind of work that is going off in development areas to help expand the game, and thus trying to improve the club long term. The stronger the game in the heartlands, the better the opportunity to expand the game in the future to non RL areas. Huge plaudits must go to the development work in the communities that already goes on by clubs themsleves, but with extra resources provided by the RFL it begs the question what improvements could be made to what is already happening.

Sorry if my input is not really welcomed on here, but I started a similar thread on the Batley Website and I wanted to lend a bit of support, so I hope it's welcomed, and to let you know that you're not on your own with your feelings regarding the state of the game.

For what it's worth I believe the only way forward is to break away for SL, but the issue as someone has already stated is the 100k each club is getting from sky at the moment, but for how long we will continue to recieve this payment is anyones guess.

great post

#40 Robin Evans

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Dec 15 2009, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
12. Finishing top of the league does not make you championship winners, that is decided by 1 game, the final, at the end of the season. Surely the best team is the one who consistantly, over the whole season, wins more games than anyone else.

I agree with almost all of your post other than the one point. I actually enjoy the play-offs nowadays. In footy and rugby they have been a resounding success and extend the number of meaningful games for many clubs right to the end of the season and obviously beyond.
Finishing higher in the league gives you increasing advantages the higher you finish for the play-offs.
A good system, not infallable, but one which provides enhanced entertainment for the fans, and usually the team finishing top has, more oft than not (from memory this so again, subject to scrutiny), gone on to win the comp. i.e. Barrow last year!

I broadly agree to almost everything else you post.

Edited by Robin Evans, 15 December 2009 - 11:17 AM.

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