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Alternative to mid-season test or origin game


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#1 BringBacktheBiff

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 10:47 PM

What about an allstars game with a selection on a draft system, appoint 2 coaches with each taking it in turn to pick players. Eg coach A would have first pick at full back then coach B first pick for a wing spot and so on. could do it as 2 sets off English teams or even allow a given number of overseas players perhaps 1 or 2 each. could brand the game as England Red vs England White so not to give the impression that one side is superior to the other as A vs B would. Would be very competitive and a better test than the French. Better than Yorks v Lancs as doesnt alienate cumbrians and Londoners such as McCarthy-Scarsbrook, Purdham, Clubb etc. IMO superior to the Barbarians / England v overseas SL players side concept as I feel the barbarian side would lack motivation and many would make themselves unavailable. The only problem would be getting the fans to buy into it as there would be no reason to support one side over an other.

Edited by BringBacktheBiff, 18 June 2010 - 10:48 PM.


#2 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 11:24 PM

QUOTE (BringBacktheBiff @ Jun 18 2010, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What about an allstars game with a selection on a draft system, appoint 2 coaches with each taking it in turn to pick players. Eg coach A would have first pick at full back then coach B first pick for a wing spot and so on. could do it as 2 sets off English teams or even allow a given number of overseas players perhaps 1 or 2 each. could brand the game as England Red vs England White so not to give the impression that one side is superior to the other as A vs B would. Would be very competitive and a better test than the French. Better than Yorks v Lancs as doesnt alienate cumbrians and Londoners such as McCarthy-Scarsbrook, Purdham, Clubb etc. IMO superior to the Barbarians / England v overseas SL players side concept as I feel the barbarian side would lack motivation and many would make themselves unavailable. The only problem would be getting the fans to buy into it as there would be no reason to support one side over an other.

Which is why it will never happen. There is no reason, whether the game would be good or not, to support either team.
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#3 East Coast Tiger

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 03:03 AM

But the idea has some merit in a way.

I think there could be some positives in an All Stars game in which fans have a say in the makeup of the teams.

Whether it be a British All-Stars v World All-Stars or Lancashire All-Stars v Yorkshire All-Stars, either could work.

The Brits v Foreigners game would probably be a better game and the rivalry involved might actually be more attractive to fans than the old country-based idea, especially outside the heartlands.

But on the other hand the county game would give more potential England players a chance to trial, which is part of the point of such a game, so for that reason it might be better.

In any event, it would help build interest by drafting players, not via traditional selections by a panel or coaches, but by the public. One of the really good things about the Indigenous v NRL All-Stars game was that the fans were involved from the start and all clubs were represented.

Maybe you could appoint a coach and a captain. But the rest are voted for by the public from a pool of players, perhaps sorted by position. If it was a county game any non Yorkshire or Lancashire players (Londoners, Welsh etc) could be drafted to either team. And to ensure they aren't dominated by the big clubs like Leeds and Wigan there could be a quota for each club, which might keep them more happy anyway.

It worked well in the All-Stars game here and it can work there.

#4 Mortis

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 08:52 AM

England v Celtic nations, a combined Scotland / Wales / Ireland team? They could play the games in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Dublin.


Just an idea...
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#5 Odsal Outlaw

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 09:03 AM

QUOTE (Mortis @ Jun 19 2010, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
England v Celtic nations, a combined Scotland / Wales / Ireland team? They could play the games in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Dublin.


Just an idea...


Thats not bad, probably best of all the ideas ive seen. If it was annual it would also give the better players from those nations a decent test to play in againt a top nation. Celtic Nations could also be an potential opponent for touring sides.
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#6 Pottsy

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 09:28 AM

QUOTE (Odsal Outlaw @ Jun 19 2010, 10:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thats not bad, probably best of all the ideas ive seen. If it was annual it would also give the better players from those nations a decent test to play in againt a top nation. Celtic Nations could also be an potential opponent for touring sides.


The problem with the Celtic nations idea is that you'd end up with a side of second rate Aussies, fringe Superto League players and National League journeyman with no obvious support base. The result would likely be similar to the ones against France in recent years but there'd be none of the benefits. Can't see the point to be honest.

If they're going to try to contrive some competitive opposition, I'd go for reviving 'Other Nationalities' and at least try for a bit of a heritage angle and put together a side which could give England a meaninggul test.

Has anyone at all got an idea what kit ON used to play in?


#7 Pottsy

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 09:35 AM

FWIW, I'd actually have three Friday night rep dates in the calendar during the Super League season. Players could still 'double up' but they'd be away in training camp for the week. Players who decline rep selection would be ineligible for the weekend's SL games (the Aussies don't need blank NRL weekends for Origin/Trans-Tasman tests, so why do we?).

Date One: Origin - I know people will carp about Lancs v Yorks sending out 'the wrong message' but it's a meaningful rivalry that could draw a respectable crowd at the right venue and would provide the opportunity to take 40 of the country's best players in a training camp/Test-style environment to see how they cope.

Date Two: England v France - in France.

Date Three: England v Other Nationalities. With the right marketing, support from the clubs and a bit of thought put into the heritage angle this could tick all the boxes.

#8 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 10:42 AM

QUOTE (Pottsy @ Jun 19 2010, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
FWIW, I'd actually have three Friday night rep dates in the calendar during the Super League season. Players could still 'double up' but they'd be away in training camp for the week. Players who decline rep selection would be ineligible for the weekend's SL games (the Aussies don't need blank NRL weekends for Origin/Trans-Tasman tests, so why do we?).

Date One: Origin - I know people will carp about Lancs v Yorks sending out 'the wrong message' but it's a meaningful rivalry that could draw a respectable crowd at the right venue and would provide the opportunity to take 40 of the country's best players in a training camp/Test-style environment to see how they cope.

Date Two: England v France - in France.

Date Three: England v Other Nationalities. With the right marketing, support from the clubs and a bit of thought put into the heritage angle this could tick all the boxes.

The Aussies play less league games than us Pottsy, as well as no cup games, so they're in a better position to back-up than us (who are already shattered by international time anyway.

If we had a game against Other Nationalities, I wouldn't want the European players involved. Would rather they play for their own nations on the same weekend.
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#9 petero

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 11:53 AM

QUOTE (Odsal Outlaw @ Jun 19 2010, 10:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thats not bad, probably best of all the ideas ive seen. If it was annual it would also give the better players from those nations a decent test to play in againt a top nation. Celtic Nations could also be an potential opponent for touring sides.


And you do not consider the fact that France with a top selective side on the field could wipe the floor with all three of those er ........Celtic nations, individually or the best of them in a full Celtic rep selection squad, would be less of a test than what the Versus France game presents to England?

Sorry think again!


#10 ShotgunGold

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 12:25 PM

Do people not realise that we have one problem with this fixture, and that their "alternatives" would simply create many more problems that ultimately would be a step backwards for the overall goal which is a competitive and attractive England versus France fixture.

Sometimes I feel that people say ideas simply for the sake of it.

There is no coincidence that every sport organises teams on an national country basis. Why? Because most people relate country to identity, which is the whole reason why people support a team. If you don't feel connected to a team then you don't support them. England football is a prime example, the amount of people who don't follow Premier League but are simply following England because it is "the national team" is immense. Losing this connection would mean an even more meaningless fixture. People identify themselves with being English or French for a reason, because they feel connected to their country, not county, not city, but country.

It is also no coincidence that sponsors and television companies prefer this setup too, more so than a few one-sided games. So why are league fans wanting this gone?

Anything with an England A or England B, possibles v probables etc etc is a complete joke. Does anyone honestly expect people to turn up to a game like that, to really support their team (A or B take your pick I suppose) and to genuinely be able to talk about this game afterwards or perhaps to take people who have never seen a RL game before to this particular game. Do you honestly think Sky would have it on SS1 or SS2, that newspapers would give coverage to it? If you do then your incredibly stupid!

The Barbarians are viable in RU because they have history, and they have an identity. Plus they're not considered a "main-nation", and England regularly play proper national teams like France, Argentina etc throughout the year. Therefore a RL version would have many more problems then the current RU one has, which I believe is quite a lot when it comes to money and funding so I have heard.

Lancashire versus Yorkshire. Oh come on guys, surely we can do better than that? Two counties in England playing each other, that really is the way to push Rugby League isn't it... Forget that the London newspapers and press wouldn't give a dam, forget that 50% of RL Sky tv viewers are from Southern England, forget that we now have teams and players not from those two counties. If there was ever a case for taking a step backwards, then this would be it, infact it's more like taking a 20 year step backwards.

All other methods fail to take into account what the players might think. Would foreign players really care about an "All-Stars" team? They wouldn't have a true identity, they wouldn't have any fans, could they get sponsorship, would a player put this team over their Super League team to play for them like the England players have done? Of course not. The players want to play for England, and they want to play against a proper national team, where that be Australia or flipping Peru.

"Other Nationalities" or "Celtic Nationalities" again suffers from all of the other main problems that have arisen, as well as the fact that there would probably be lots of Australians and New Zealanders in there like someone else mentioned. It would have no support and if you think people will turn out in Edinburgh, Dublin or Cardiff to see "England v Other Nationalities" then I can assure you: they won't. Why the hell as a Scotsman would I rather support an ON or a Celtic Nationalities team over the Scottish national team. People forget that the French are generally behind their national side with 7,500 at Paris and 8,000 at Toulouse in the past, what about them when their fixture against England is lost?

So we're finally left with the good old fashioned option of "England v France", with it's one problem of not being competitive enough. Even so France still put it a good performance in some matches, such as the 34-12 in Doncaster, and are generally stronger in France and with a full-squad of players. Let's not forget this fixture also has happy players, a fanbase, commercial viability, some coverage in the press, shown on television and most importantly is not a complete joke from the "outsider looking in".

The RFL and FFRXIII should rightfully concentrate on trying to improve this fixture, and ignore the non-viable alternative suggestions.

//rant over



#11 Doghead

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 01:02 PM

How about County v State , you could also build up the roses games on the back of these fixtures.
Queensland v Yorkshire, Lancashire v NSW, I would pay to watch that.

#12 The Future is League

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 01:41 PM

we must still play the French to keep them on side as regards the International scene, but perhaps we could also play a combined PI side or a team made up of Kiwis playing in Super League.
i don't think England play enough International Rugby League prior to a world up or 4 nations tournament.

#13 joe elliot

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 05:07 PM

keep the french test and add a test against the welsh, stick with it and work on getting them more competitive.
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#14 Dirk Diggler

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 05:12 PM

Add this to the 'it will never happen' list.

1. Split the league in to Eastern & Western conferences, 7 teams each.

2. Have an all-star game east versus west, each can pick any England qualified player signed to a team in their conference.

3. Change the play off rules so that for any game between an eastern team and a western team then the team from the conference that won the all-star game is at home.

4. Conference that won last year is at home this year.

Fans will have a conference to cheer for.
Players and fans will have something riding on the result.

And, you could do exactly the same for NL level and play their all-star game as a curtain raiser.



#15 Odsal Outlaw

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 07:45 PM

QUOTE (petero @ Jun 19 2010, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And you do not consider the fact that France with a top selective side on the field could wipe the floor with all three of those er ........Celtic nations, individually or the best of them in a full Celtic rep selection squad, would be less of a test than what the Versus France game presents to England?

Sorry think again!


The World Cup would suggest otherwise. Anyway, I never said it was better than Eng vs. France, just the best of the ideas i'd seen. But you are still wrong, France would not wipe the floor with a Celtic rep side.
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#16 Pottsy

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 01:56 AM

QUOTE (Dirk Diggler @ Jun 19 2010, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Add this to the 'it will never happen' list.

1. Split the league in to Eastern & Western conferences, 7 teams each.

2. Have an all-star game east versus west, each can pick any England qualified player signed to a team in their conference.

3. Change the play off rules so that for any game between an eastern team and a western team then the team from the conference that won the all-star game is at home.

4. Conference that won last year is at home this year.

Fans will have a conference to cheer for.
Players and fans will have something riding on the result.

And, you could do exactly the same for NL level and play their all-star game as a curtain raiser.


It will never happen. Thankfully.


#17 callig

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:57 PM

I was giving this topic some thought today and wondered what people's opinions of a 'BARLA Heritage XIII' versus a 'Fans Select XIII' as a mid-season rep series for national selection would be. Not sure if BARLA Heritage is the best name for it but the idea would be to have a team made of players who played their junior rugby at a BARLA affiliated club before being picked up by a pro club. The Fans Select team would then be chosen by the fans from the players who didnt qualify for the ex-BARLA team and any players who would prefer to play for the Fans team.

The idea would be to play on the heartlands v non-heartlands concept without drawing some random meaningless line some where around the M62 and Cumbria. The two main questions would be are supporters go to buy in to it and what would the player pools look like for both teams (would the Fans team maybe need to be open to non-English players initially?). Being a former Siddal junior player I'd go for the BARLA team but making it a Fans select would hopefully draw the support of those that voted. Can anyone suggest what possible team line ups might look like?

Putting aside the arguements of if we should have an equivlent to origin or not what flaws have I missed in this idea if we did want such a series?

#18 roughyedspud

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 05:37 AM

England v Other nationalities mid season, the ON team would provide a far greater test than us putting 60 on france


&


England v france,wales,ireland or scotland post season before the 4nations/world cup



its really not rocket science

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#19 ParisSurtout

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 05:50 AM

I would have the following fixtures to help both England and France:

Mid season:

England vs France.
Hold it on a Friday night at Leeds or Manchester area (DW or Halliwell Jones), one year, and Paris or Toulouse the next, with no Super League game on that night. The French clubs play their SL or Championship rounds on a Monday or Tuesday night to give their players a chance to recover.

In ten years we could perhaps augment this with Wales vs Ireland as a preliminary telecast match held in either Wales or Ireland (alternating each year), assuming that Ireland has developed to the point of having a Super League club.

End of season pre-Four Nations / World Cup:

England vs Barbarians (Aussies and Kiwis in Super League)

OR

England vs Australian Barbarians

OR

England vs New Zealand Barbarians

Edited by ParisSurtout, 14 July 2010 - 06:11 AM.

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#20 ParisSurtout

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 06:30 AM

This year's Australian Barbarians team, should England want a very hot and invigorating warm up for the Four Nations.


Brett Hodgson

Pat Richards, Matt King, Matt Gidley, Amos Roberts

Michael Monaghan,
Matt Orford

Dallas Johnson,
Craig Fitzgibbon, Steve Menzies,
Dane Carlaw, Danny Buderus, Mark O'Meley


Interchange: Shaun Berrigan, Michael Vella, Joel Clinton, Chris Flannery,



Australian Barbarians B. Backup squad to play England B::


Luke Dorn

Scott Donald, Brett Delaney, David Howell, Chris Walker,

Brett Kearney,
Michael Dobson,

Luke Williamson,
Clint Newton, Ben Galea,
Peter Cusack, Chad Randall, Ryan O'Hara

Interchange: Michael Korkidas, Adam Peek, Glenn Hall, Ryan McGoldrick, Heath L'Estrange,
,

Edited by ParisSurtout, 14 July 2010 - 07:20 AM.

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