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Kear sees the light on franchising


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#201 The Parksider

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Jul 5 2010, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
However, as has been proven in London and Sheffield who both in theory should attract huge gates every week, neither have managed it though, and both have historically struggled to attract fans and in reality you'd have to say catchment area does not/has not guaranteed large attendances, so why would it work in say Birmingham or Newcastle? However, I would love to know what promotion the RFL has done in the likes of Sheffield and London to attract fans and help to grow the game, at a guess I'd say not much, particularly in Sheffield.


I think the salary cap is too high at the moment and needs to be set to a level that can be maxed by all of the competing teams. If the SC was able to be maxed out and afforded by all of the clubs in the SL, then we would see the spread of talent I am advocating.


You always advocate something then try to logically analyse how it will work which is good stuff.

The idea RL is such a great game that if presented to a population at top level they will automatically flood to it has as you say been disproven. many places already have their soccer to watch primarily and secondly they have their beloved Union which is clearly preferred to league in non league areas.

It's too easy to offer this idea that all it takes for a big crowd is marketing. That costs money and the return is limited, even if you gave away unlimited free tickets there would be still the barrier of who wants to watch RL - their time is money and they won't waste that??

We watch RL in the northern towns bacuse its ingrained in the culture. That to me is the answer. If we can build good crowds over several generations by having the game extensively played in an area people will to a point gravitate to it. In short there's no short term fix. If we want crowds to grow in big population areas we have to grow an RL cluture there. Looking at generations here.

As for lowering the salry cap to bring in more clubs to max cap that is great in theory using a calculator and numbers to get to a proposal. Any such proposal means dragging the big six clubs who manage maximum cap right down. Even if they would wear it would it really be as simple as that??

All the fans are in the big clubs - Hull, Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire, Fartown can draw 70,000 plus fans because they are who they are. Will dragging them down be such a good idea. I am not sure.......


#202 Pride & Heritage

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 01:09 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 5 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You always advocate something then try to logically analyse how it will work which is good stuff.

The idea RL is such a great game that if presented to a population at top level they will automatically flood to it has as you say been disproven. many places already have their soccer to watch primarily and secondly they have their beloved Union which is clearly preferred to league in non league areas.
We watch RL in the northern towns bacuse its ingrained in the culture. That to me is the answer. If we can build good crowds over several generations by having the game extensively played in an area people will to a point gravitate to it. In short there's no short term fix. If we want crowds to grow in big population areas we have to grow an RL cluture there. Looking at generations here.

Maybe the solution is to introduce a national junior competition though schools to ensure that all or certainly most kids grow up playing or at least have a good exposure to the game, perhaps we need to add imputous to the existing schemes. I'm sure that is why Union is so strong, even in the area I grew up Union was the only code of rugby we played at school.

QUOTE
As for lowering the salry cap to bring in more clubs to max cap that is great in theory using a calculator and numbers to get to a proposal. Any such proposal means dragging the big six clubs who manage maximum cap right down. Even if they would wear it would it really be as simple as that??
All the fans are in the big clubs - Hull, Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire, Fartown can draw 70,000 plus fans because they are who they are. Will dragging them down be such a good idea. I am not sure.......

I think it might bring the gates at the big clubs down a little in the short term, but it should be balanced out by the increase in travelling away support as we would be guaranteeing more close games, which should result in cutting some of the apathy where fans of the big clubs do not see the point in paying to watch their team win easily in games against the bottom clubs.

Fartown is a good case in point, I watched them against Batley for years in the lower divisions with gates no better than Batley's at the time. They are a classic example of how a dead and buried team with no ground and very little support can become a major force in the game. Continued success and competitiveness on the field over the last few years has seen their gates and standing in the game increase to now make them a major club again. For the game to significantly grow over the next few years, and really take off, and to help it get closer to the elusive national sport status it wants to be. I would like to see the same growth achieved at Fartown at clubs like Salford, Wakefield and all of the other clubs that are struggling at the moment. The only way clubs can do this is through money at the moment. A sugar daddy is one avenue to success for them, but it can also lead to disaster in many cases, like at Oldham, Doncaster and more recently at Blackpool. By lowering the cap however, it would reduce the need for a sugar daddy at most clubs to make them competitive, it would ensure the future of the clubs and the game by maintaining a level of spending on players that would be sustainable, and in the future they would hopefully become self funding and profitable entities.

Getting the big clubs to agree is a different matter though. It could be achieved by a totally independent RFL who had the best interests of the whole game as its objective, but at this point in time I am not convinced that it is capable of being independent from the influence of the big teams and acting for the games best interests.

Edited by Pride & Heritage, 05 July 2010 - 01:30 PM.


#203 Ackroman

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 01:29 PM

Having been to watch Dewsbury play Toulouse on Saturday, I think that's the end of my association with Championship football, while franchising promotes the following negatives.

- no atmosphere, 864 fans shouting for 1 side. Why are Toulouse in this league?
- nothing to play for, it was like ground hog day. Only 1 team has any future outside the championship and there wasn't one fan in the ground to celebrate that.
- A disproportionate number of Aussies playing for Toulouse. The price of a future outside the championship (it seems to me).
- A disproportionate access to resources. Toulouse have a whole feeder system with St Gaudens FFS!
- It was like ground hog day. Reminded me of the time Huddersfield were in the NFP. Nailed on for Super League everyone else can go hang.
- It was like ground hog day, poor facilities, same as 1994 when the ground was built. Same old faces, same deluded aspirations, no new blood.

2 quotes.

What have the Romans ever done for us?. errrrr - nothing

The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result. I am therefore glad to announce I am no longer insane.

So if franchising has done anything, it's made my decision not to renew my season ticket a forgone conclusion. I'm sure I am not the first or the last.


#204 Pride & Heritage

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Ackroman @ Jul 5 2010, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Having been to watch Dewsbury play Toulouse on Saturday, I think that's the end of my association with Championship football, while franchising promotes the following negatives.

- no atmosphere, 864 fans shouting for 1 side. Why are Toulouse in this league?
- nothing to play for, it was like ground hog day. Only 1 team has any future outside the championship and there wasn't one fan in the ground to celebrate that.
- A disproportionate number of Aussies playing for Toulouse. The price of a future outside the championship (it seems to me).
- A disproportionate access to resources. Toulouse have a whole feeder system with St Gaudens FFS!
- It was like ground hog day. Reminded me of the time Huddersfield were in the NFP. Nailed on for Super League everyone else can go hang.
- It was like ground hog day, poor facilities, same as 1994 when the ground was built. Same old faces, same deluded aspirations, no new blood.

2 quotes.

What have the Romans ever done for us?. errrrr - nothing

The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result. I am therefore glad to announce I am no longer insane.

So if franchising has done anything, it's made my decision not to renew my season ticket a forgone conclusion. I'm sure I am not the first or the last.


Sadly Acroman, if we all take that attitude we are playing in to the RFL's hands in killing the game off below SL, as all of the clubs outside of SL will go to the wall. Maybe they will anyway, but I fear it will be the begining of the end for the whole game if it happens.

I too disagree with the Toulouse inclusion, I simply cannot see what they are doing for the game over here. The same goes for Catalan for that matter, they bring nothing to the sport, no fans, too many 2nd or 3rd rate Aussies, and they are taking money out of the game on travelling and hotel expenses every week either by them coming here, or by teams from this country playing them in France. It is money that could be better spent on trying to strengthen the game in this country IMO.

#205 dallymessenger

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 01:58 PM

is this thread still going?

the flat earth society have made more posts advocating the return of P&R than they get a crowd at their home games.

#206 Bomb Jack

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 02:34 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Jul 5 2010, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
is this thread still going?

the flat earth society have made more posts advocating the return of P&R than they get a crowd at their home games.


No one forces you to read it Dally. If you don't like it, move along.............

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#207 skep155

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 03:07 PM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Jul 5 2010, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sadly Acroman, if we all take that attitude we are playing in to the RFL's hands in killing the game off below SL, as all of the clubs outside of SL will go to the wall. Maybe they will anyway, but I fear it will be the begining of the end for the whole game if it happens.

I too disagree with the Toulouse inclusion, I simply cannot see what they are doing for the game over here. The same goes for Catalan for that matter, they bring nothing to the sport, no fans, too many 2nd or 3rd rate Aussies, and they are taking money out of the game on travelling and hotel expenses every week either by them coming here, or by teams from this country playing them in France. It is money that could be better spent on trying to strengthen the game in this country IMO.



That's working well in London isn't it? Then again you didn't really mean this country did you, you meant better spent strengthening the game along the M62, where it's already strong. The game is actually strong in parts of the south of France and people do want to watch it, as is continuously proven by Catalan's home crowds. Give me 7,500 in Perpignan watching SL over 4,000 in Featherstone any day, the Heineken Cup proves what generates the most money and interest in the long run.



#208 Ackroman

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Jul 5 2010, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sadly Acroman, if we all take that attitude we are playing in to the RFL's hands in killing the game off below SL, as all of the clubs outside of SL will go to the wall. Maybe they will anyway, but I fear it will be the begining of the end for the whole game if it happens.

I too disagree with the Toulouse inclusion, I simply cannot see what they are doing for the game over here. The same goes for Catalan for that matter, they bring nothing to the sport, no fans, too many 2nd or 3rd rate Aussies, and they are taking money out of the game on travelling and hotel expenses every week either by them coming here, or by teams from this country playing them in France. It is money that could be better spent on trying to strengthen the game in this country IMO.


The thing is P&H, there are a lot of us who have taken the decision to walk away from it all. It's just not for me any more.

#209 Ackroman

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 03:41 PM

QUOTE (skep155 @ Jul 5 2010, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's working well in London isn't it? Then again you didn't really mean this country did you, you meant better spent strengthening the game along the M62, where it's already strong. The game is actually strong in parts of the south of France and people do want to watch it, as is continuously proven by Catalan's home crowds. Give me 7,500 in Perpignan watching SL over 4,000 in Featherstone any day, the Heineken Cup proves what generates the most money and interest in the long run.


If the south of France has such a grip on RL why do they need us? Why do Toulouse have to travel to Dewsbury or Batley if that's the case?

7,500 in Perpignan. Not exactly setting the world on fire in comparison to the Heineken cup.

Fev aren't in Superleague to make a fair comparison. Try 2,500 in Salford.

#210 Ackroman

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 03:44 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Jul 5 2010, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
is this thread still going?

the flat earth society have made more posts advocating the return of P&R than they get a crowd at their home games.


Forgive me for not prescribing to your point of view but I have my own experience of RL. It's a bit like Soweto's experience of the world cup. I assume you are fortunate enough to go along the bypass and miss Soweto altogether.

#211 DemonUK

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 04:16 PM

QUOTE (Keith T @ Jul 1 2010, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As the Chief Executive of the RFL commented, "At a time when other major spectator sports are facing falling attendances, it is most encouraging to see our gates rising significantly once again. This surely demonstrates that however hard the times, people will always turn up to support a game which offers skill, excitement, commitment, self-discipline, and value for money.

However we musn't be complacent. Much remains to be done and it is particularly pleasingto find that many Rugby League clubs are at last paying attention to the vital need to improve spectators' facilities and comfort. The battle for people's time, attention, and money has never been tougher but the latest figures confirm my conviction that our game is marching inexorably forward to the ultimate goal, which will see Rugby League firmly established as a leading national spectator sport during the course of the current decade".

Mmmmmmmmm.


...and that my friend is complete and utter tosh. Like for like attendances are up at the moment by 0.28%-a total of about 400 fans over the twenty rounds to date. 5 SL clubs are showing an increase in attendances but 9 are showing significant decreases. The reason for the 'increase' Crusaders RL when compared with Celtics crowds last year (######, expansion must be working lol). Crusaders up 51%, Wire up 18% nothing else to shout about though. Attendances will show a fall by the end of the season I think



Sorry folks, no forecast comp this year


#212 Pride & Heritage

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 05:11 PM

QUOTE (skep155 @ Jul 5 2010, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's working well in London isn't it? Then again you didn't really mean this country did you, you meant better spent strengthening the game along the M62, where it's already strong. The game is actually strong in parts of the south of France and people do want to watch it, as is continuously proven by Catalan's home crowds. Give me 7,500 in Perpignan watching SL over 4,000 in Featherstone any day, the Heineken Cup proves what generates the most money and interest in the long run.


Personally I would put the cash to use in either narrowing the gaps between the SL and the CH's divisions, allowing a smooth transition for P&R between all clubs. Or I would make a serious push and try to get the game played and recognised in as many schools as possible. I maybe wrong, but the best chance to expand the game IMO is from a position of strength within the heartlands of the game. Then gradually expand the game once we have our house in order with 20-30 strong self-sustained and well supported clubs.

Edited by Pride & Heritage, 05 July 2010 - 05:24 PM.


#213 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 05:38 PM

QUOTE (PJT @ Jul 3 2010, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
this is embarrassing to say the least and shows to me the current model of franchises and expansion isn't working.

nobody has said anything different. I find it deeply unsatisfactor. But then so were the comparable games in Salford's relegation season when they missed out on survival by one point.
Salford have had a close relationship with promotion and relegation since two divisions were introduced and before SL. I don't think it did them a whole lot of good.
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#214 tonyXIII

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 06:00 PM

For DemonUK: Someone pointed out earlier in this thread that the quote in question was from the 1980s and was made by David Oxley. I didn't realise that either until the explanation was posted about 200 pages ago.

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#215 The Parksider

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 08:16 AM

QUOTE (Ackroman @ Jul 5 2010, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Having been to watch Dewsbury play Toulouse on Saturday, I think that's the end of my association with Championship football, while franchising promotes the following negatives.

So if franchising has done anything, it's made my decision not to renew my season ticket a forgone conclusion. I'm sure I am not the first or the last.


When we had P & R a few years ago Dewsbury were battling for promotion to SL and IIRC managed an average gate of about 1300 around that time. Last year according to the Gillette yearbook they posted an average of 1263 playing in NL1.

Back at the turn of the millenium Batley returned an average attendance for the season of 837, now after Franchising they return an average attendance of 856.

With the deepest of respect Superleague or Franchising a.k.a. is simply not responsible for the supposed "falling off of attendances" and the "giving up" of spectators in the NL's to the extent often portrayed here. People get fed up with RL and don't bother going for a whole myriad of reasons, it's just so easy to pin things on SL or no P & R.

I recall Dewsbury in 1972-4. I was there at their Yorks Cup Final, famous championship win and their epic semi finals and at that time their Chairman Mick Lumb had a go at the town for not turning up in numbers to watch one of the best Dewsbury teams ever.

If there are low attendances in NL and NL1 your first stop is the creation of a divide between the clubs in NL and NL1. The likes of Keighley, Dewsbury and Batley do not belong in any shape or form next to the Skolars, Gatesheads and blackpools. When the NL clubs were split many chairman of the clubs losing out in the split warned that that would decimate their clubs, and they were right. NL1 is a graveyard.

If the attendances are poor in the NL's then look to the size of the towns that are there to provide spectators. Many are small towns in the very first place, and wouldn't provide much more support for soccer than they do for RL and in places like Workington you can P & R your way all the way up to play Manchester United. But P & R doesn't make for good attendances either at Town (who have it) or at the Workington version of the reds.

Clubs like York, Oldham and Swinton have been on hard times for years, but it wasn't SL who ran them down and sold their wonderful grounds.

If the attendances are low then try looking at the competition. I happen to believe that NL is a marvellous place to have a vibrant competition, but the darn thing doesn't start till well into the season because there's a silly manufactured cup to fill out the too short league season. It's a division in which Batley and Dewsbury should meet every year as should Workington and Whitehaven or keighley and Halifax. But they don't.

If franchising is responsible for anything in the NL's it's using NL as a holding competition for Widnes who should have gone in SL last time, and Toulouse who the RFL bottled out putting in, so as you say, they are dumped on you. But removing Franchising isn't the key to making the best of the NL and taking it forward, it's creating a 14 club NL and bringing back the Workingtons, Rochdales, York's and Oldhams from death valley, dumping out the Superleague wannabees into SL, and getting on with doing the best for
our traditional second tier of small clubs.

Yes many of these small clubs can look back on the success Saints and Leeds have now and conclude that they can do it again. My own club won every trophy in 1908 but that was 1908. The conditions then were low mobility for fans and speccies, high levels of local players such you could get a winning sides from your juniors like Hunslet did in 1908 and like Castleford and Featherstone did in the 1980's in living memory. That has gone and it went before SL ever came along, conditions are different nowadays.

Today we have to set up our game according to the way things are now. The best young players will travel to the bigger clubs and have no loyalty anymore - just a career to develop to pay their bills. The fans will gravitate to the bigger clubs with the best players on show. You no longer support Hunslet because you can't afford the bus fare to Headingley...........

As much as we'd like to, we can't recreate the past. But I do think we should be honest and not take the view that Superleague or Franchising for that matter is what has taken the past away from us.............






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