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Kear sees the light on franchising


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#21 Ackroman

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 07:54 AM

RL has been packaged for TV not for fans.

#22 Dave T

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (NEIL FOX IS GOD @ Jun 30 2010, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sport is a game were the winner gets rewarded IE with promotion to a higher level franchise is total bulls@it yet another thing we have adopted from the states
You can finish bottom year on year out but if you have money and a posh stadium you can get away with it money is killing sport its killed football and it will kill RL as a sport face it we have no sport only poorly run business that losers money season in season out
The winners do get rewarded, with prize money and trophies.

It is unlikely that you will finish bottom year on year if you have a decent stadium and money. If you do, crowds will drop, sponsorship will drop, your ratings each time will be reduced, and if teams are then proving themselves to be stronger in the lower division, they will take your place.

'It's killed football'. No it hasn't.

It hasn't killed sport, and won't do.

When I go watching an RL game, I see two teams playing a brilliant game on the field. There have always been off-field politics, right back to 1895.


#23 rLrLrL

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 09:46 AM

QUOTE (Ackroman @ Jun 30 2010, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
RL has been packaged for TV not for fans.


So fans don't also watch on tv? How about potential fans?


#24 Trojan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Jun 30 2010, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
'It's killed football'. No it hasn't.



It seems to have killed it as an international sport in the UK. England's performance in the current contest can only be described as abject. The Premier League is effectively an exclusive club that has had billions lavished on it. The perfomance in South Africa is what this has produced. Surely we don't want to go further down this route.
15/20 years ago we looked to have the beating of Australia within our reach. But after 15 years of SL we seem further away than ever. Will the lack of competition for a SL place improve or detract from what for me is the holy grail of any sport - a successful international side? Plus of course the added benefit in the profile of such a sport in the UK. And of course what this thread started to be about the excitement that pulls the fans in.

Edited by Trojan, 30 June 2010 - 09:57 AM.

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#25 rLrLrL

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 10:32 AM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It seems to have killed it as an international sport in the UK. England's performance in the current contest can only be described as abject. The Premier League is effectively an exclusive club that has had billions lavished on it. The perfomance in South Africa is what this has produced. Surely we don't want to go further down this route.
15/20 years ago we looked to have the beating of Australia within our reach. But after 15 years of SL we seem further away than ever. Will the lack of competition for a SL place improve or detract from what for me is the holy grail of any sport - a successful international side? Plus of course the added benefit in the profile of such a sport in the UK. And of course what this thread started to be about the excitement that pulls the fans in.


So you're suggesting England were mighty or even close prior to Sky Tv's involvement. The so-called stars back then didn't seem any better than the current crop - unless you have rose tinted specs.

I suggest you go back to your drawing board and make up a better excuse.

Edited by rLrLrL, 30 June 2010 - 11:46 AM.


#26 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:16 AM

QUOTE (Ackroman @ Jun 30 2010, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
RL has been packaged for TV not for fans.


As rLrLrL says fans watch on TV in massive numbers and pay to watch on TV and that money goes to Superleague clubs.

I suppose you mean "REAL" fans. If you do the only reality professional sport recognises is money and wether you pay it to them via SKY subscriptions or via the turnstyles it don't matter.

I watch loads of games live and even more on TV and pay for the lot. Very nice "package" that is too.


#27 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:29 AM

QUOTE (NEIL FOX IS GOD @ Jun 30 2010, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
and jut how many SL clubs are in profit? How many are in debt up to their necks?


Well yes that's the point isn't it.

If we have around half a dozen clubs who can find an exciting team, compete for the trophies, spend full cap and pull in the fans that's where all the excitement will be and clearly is.

If the skint bottom half of the table can't compete and has no brass then of course that's where the doldrums come from. It seems weird to say that the bottom half of SL is boring because there's no relegation battle. the facts as Padge keeps repeating them is in the relegation years you could pick out the odd match here and there that was a relegation "winner takes all" in which several thousand extra fans were attracted to these games. However for the vast majority of "relegation" games the crowds simply did not turn up.

Of course the follow on from the supposedly well attended and attractive relegation tussel may be the promotion of two new clubs to SL - say at the moment Featherstone and Leigh.

Then off we go again. Two more clubs destined for small crowds, low income and struggle such that there may not even be any relegation battle if they never get off the bottom of the table and go straight back down again.

Don't forget SL set up P & R such that by the time you got promoted they'd cleaned up on all the best pro players leaving the promoted side as relegation fodder from the start. I know HKR bucked the trend, but that was because Hudgell had 3million to buy himself safe in SL and even then they could have gone but for that "odd match" against Salford......

#28 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It seems to have killed it as an international sport in the UK. England's performance in the current contest can only be described as abject. The Premier League is effectively an exclusive club that has had billions lavished on it. The perfomance in South Africa is what this has produced. Surely we don't want to go further down this route.
15/20 years ago we looked to have the beating of Australia within our reach. But after 15 years of SL we seem further away than ever. Will the lack of competition for a SL place improve or detract from what for me is the holy grail of any sport - a successful international side? Plus of course the added benefit in the profile of such a sport in the UK. And of course what this thread started to be about the excitement that pulls the fans in.


England went out of the soccer world cup because there's around a dozen countries who currently produce better quality players than us. How this links in any way to GB's losses to Australia at RL is beyond me??

15/20 years ago we were regularly beaten by Australia, sometimes heavily. Today the same thing happens. That is because they produce far more quality players than us to pick from, and can pick those in form.

Where promotion and relegation to superleague in any way comes into this scenario you really must tell us.




#29 LOWFIELD

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:45 AM


I worry that we are making the experience of going the rugby as unexciting as possible and rather than having games that are 'must see' there are far more that are 'might see'. This is all clouded by attendances still being relatively high but I think that this doesn't tell the whole story.
[/quote]

If you look at Castlefords last 3 attendances then i think it shows Licencing is costing the game millions per season. 4200 v Catalans relegation battle add 2k. Salford away 3000 relegation at stake add 2k. Bradford away 5600 relegation at stake add 2k. Take this over a full season with all the effected clubs and millions are being lost

#30 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:49 AM

QUOTE (LOWFIELD @ Jun 30 2010, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I worry that we are making the experience of going the rugby as unexciting as possible and rather than having games that are 'must see' there are far more that are 'might see'. This is all clouded by attendances still being relatively high but I think that this doesn't tell the whole story.


If you look at Castlefords last 3 attendances then i think it shows Licencing is costing the game millions per season. 4200 v Catalans relegation battle add 2k. Salford away 3000 relegation at stake add 2k. Bradford away 5600 relegation at stake add 2k. Take this over a full season with all the effected clubs and millions are being lost

how come that didn't happen when fev were battling against relegation in 83, on top of which they won the cup: average attendance 2,600
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#31 Trojan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 12:19 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jun 30 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
15/20 years ago we were regularly beaten by Australia, sometimes heavily.


No you're wrong there Parky. In 1990 we came within a disputed referee's decsion of beating them in a series. We gave a creditable performance in the World Cup Final in 1992 and also in the Ashes series that year - also in the subsequent 1994 tour and 1995 World Cup. It's since then that the game has been declining internationally as far as England are concerned.
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#32 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 12:28 PM

QUOTE (LOWFIELD @ Jun 30 2010, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I worry that we are making the experience of going the rugby as unexciting as possible and rather than having games that are 'must see' there are far more that are 'might see'. This is all clouded by attendances still being relatively high but I think that this doesn't tell the whole story.


If you look at Castlefords last 3 attendances then i think it shows Licencing is costing the game millions per season. 4200 v Catalans relegation battle add 2k. Salford away 3000 relegation at stake add 2k. Bradford away 5600 relegation at stake add 2k. Take this over a full season with all the effected clubs and millions are being lost


I think that the attendances you quote may also have been affected by other factors, midweek game, and a game against a club whose own fanbase is dropping sadly like a stone, notwithstanding a sense of aceptance at Castleford that they don't seem to have the resources anymore to compete with the "big boys", and that includes players rumoured to have already done deals at bigger clubs as they play for you.

It's not relegation battles you need my friend (which are statistically matches with below average attendance - of that there is no doubt, Padge has his "facts") you need what Wigan, Fartown, Crusaders, Saints, Wire, Salford, Quins, Crusaders, Widnes, and HKR have and that is a rich backer, or you need to have a fanbase like Hull or Leeds.

Low crowds come more from having clubs in SL who can't compete. I see no low crowds in the NRL


#33 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 12:37 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No you're wrong there Parky. In 1990 we came within a disputed referee's decsion of beating them in a series. We gave a creditable performance in the World Cup Final in 1992 and also in the Ashes series that year - also in the subsequent 1994 tour and 1995 World Cup. It's since then that the game has been declining internationally as far as England are concerned.


I was there when Meninga obstructed someone getting to Stewart at Old Trafford Tro, but what exactly am I wrong about. We have lost to the Aussies regularly since we won the world cup in 1972.

Maybe we didn't lose as often and as by as much, but then we had legends like Hanley, Schoey and Gregory at half back, we could find British wingers, and play full backs in form like Hampson. We had pack giants like Harrison
Skerret, Betts, and Platt and our teams were well balanced. Today we have to really push it to scrape up 13 in form quality players.

The demise of Great Britain is about the demise in numbers of international quality british players. Superlague today offers six figure salaries for such players to play our game and get to the top. The incentives are there.

The kids sadly haven't come.

What earthly link is there to promotion and relegation????

#34 gingerjon

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 12:47 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It seems to have killed it as an international sport in the UK. England's performance in the current contest can only be described as abject. The Premier League is effectively an exclusive club that has had billions lavished on it. The perfomance in South Africa is what this has produced. Surely we don't want to go further down this route.
15/20 years ago we looked to have the beating of Australia within our reach. But after 15 years of SL we seem further away than ever. Will the lack of competition for a SL place improve or detract from what for me is the holy grail of any sport - a successful international side? Plus of course the added benefit in the profile of such a sport in the UK. And of course what this thread started to be about the excitement that pulls the fans in.


The NRL is franchised.

The USA came first in England's group. Any idea how P&R works for Major League Soccer?

England are World Champions in Twenty20 and yet no county has ever been relegated from what this season is called the Friends Provident t20.
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#35 gingerjon

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 12:48 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's since then that the game has been declining internationally as far as England are concerned.


If we could have kept it together for ten more minutes England would probably be the current Four Nations champions.
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#36 Ackroman

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 01:10 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jun 30 2010, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As rLrLrL says fans watch on TV in massive numbers and pay to watch on TV and that money goes to Superleague clubs.

I suppose you mean "REAL" fans. If you do the only reality professional sport recognises is money and wether you pay it to them via SKY subscriptions or via the turnstyles it don't matter.

I watch loads of games live and even more on TV and pay for the lot. Very nice "package" that is too.



"RL has been packaged for TV fans not for attending fans"

Both yourself and rLrLrL could have simply agreed with me.

And to make my point explicit I agree with the sentiment of the thread that there are a lot of "pointless" games for club fans (is there are need for points?) and with that comes a real lack of atmosphere. It may look OK on T.V but the passion for the live event is dying off. I go to enough games to "feel" that.

One word of warning regarding what a fan might be. I wouldn't pay to watch Wigan, Widnes, or York by choice. Put it on TV and I probably would.

Edited by Ackroman, 30 June 2010 - 01:11 PM.


#37 Trojan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 01:44 PM

QUOTE (gingerjon @ Jun 30 2010, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If we could have kept it together for ten more minutes England would probably be the current Four Nations champions.


No we fell apart after an hour. They destroyed us in the last twenty - I was there. It's the best England/GB performance I've seen since the mid nineties. As for their comp being franchised - so what? if that's how the Aussies like their sport ok, most of us in this country don't like our sport in this way - we like winners and for there to be a winner there has to be a loser. The complaint is that the excitement has gone from our comp. due to franchising. So what have the benefits been so far? - Because I'm b*ggered if I can see any.
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#38 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 03:41 PM

QUOTE (Ackroman @ Jun 30 2010, 02:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"RL has been packaged for TV fans not for attending fans"

Both yourself and rLrLrL could have simply agreed with me.

And to make my point explicit I agree with the sentiment of the thread that there are a lot of "pointless" games for club fans (is there are need for points?) and with that comes a real lack of atmosphere. It may look OK on T.V but the passion for the live event is dying off. I go to enough games to "feel" that.

One word of warning regarding what a fan might be. I wouldn't pay to watch Wigan, Widnes, or York by choice. Put it on TV and I probably would.



OK sorry, I agree with you. But as for pointless games even if we had P & R and let's say featherstone went up this year and Catalans went out then we have two likely scenarios.

1. A disaster for the development of professional and international RL in France
2. A featherstone club needing to build a professional side when all the best players have been signed up and without a big enough budget to do it anyway.

Then what would P & R bring us??

Featherstone struggling to pick up points and looking certain to go down whilst the half dozen clubs above them go on to play their meaningless games they play now.

You won't get a relegation battle if the clubs who come up cannot compete, and when we left P & R it was the case that promoted clubs were regularly disadvantaged by the SL clubs as a means of ensuring they had a fall guy other than themselves.

Remember the year leigh came up - that will be the norm. I know HKR broke the trend but again they broke it with 3Million.........

#39 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 03:54 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jun 30 2010, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Remember the year leigh came up - that will be the norm. I know HKR broke the trend but again they broke it with 3Million.........

I also remember Wakefield coming up in 1998. How many times have they been relegated since? There have been several who didn't come straight back down having been promoted to SL, Parky.
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#40 Trojan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 04:07 PM

QUOTE (Terry Mullaney @ Jun 30 2010, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I also remember Wakefield coming up in 1998. How many times have they been relegated since? There have been several who didn't come straight back down having been promoted to SL, Parky.



Hull, Huddersfield, Hull KR, Cas., Salford
Widnes were only relegated because of the rule allowing Catalans to stay up, they didn't finish bottom.
Taking relegation away is like making a tightrope walker walk along his rope on the ground. Ok he can do it and it takes great skill, and I couldn't do it without falling off. But if he falls off so what? Would anyone pay money to watch him?

Edited by Trojan, 30 June 2010 - 04:09 PM.

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