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Clubs chasing loop hole players


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#21 Dave T

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:02 AM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 2 2010, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Derwent answered that with the facts - see above. Workington and Whitehaven do use a lot of cumbrian players in their NL sides, and workington seem to be chasing one or possibly two overseas quality players to boost their side - maybe in key positions).

Workington have been stuck in the division of death for some time now and they probably feel they need to get out of it before NL1 gets extended and NL2 gets dumped to amateur, I don't know, but there are probably other angles to this Dave??.

If there's a boast that Cumbria has the talent then we need the facts, for instance how many cumbrians are playing first team in SL and how many young cumbrians are in SL acedemies?? Enough such that if you add the customary 8 overseas pro players to the total do you have an SL quality team with plenty of young lads lined up - maybe you do maybe you don't.
Some good points, and I agree with many of them, my frustration isn't limited to Workington doing this, as I have pointed out on susequent posts, all clubs are as bad as each other, it was just that Town were the club highlighted. When Wigan sign an overseas player they get questioned about their local youth policy, this is no different.


QUOTE
But also consider before suggesting that Cumbria could not find 17 professional SL quality cumbrian born players to make up a SL home grown side, how any Warrington side would look if it was only Warrington born.
I would just point out that comparing a county to a town is not the same thing. I also didn't suggest that Cumbria couldn't field a SL team of Cumbrians. I was simply pointing out that we are old time and again about the wealth of talent in that region, yet even clubs in Cumbria are having to take advantage of loopholes. Nothing pointed, and not even a major criticism of Workington or Cumbria, more a comment on the state of the game that even hotbeds of the game cannot provide a strong lower-tier team.

QUOTE
RL is massively short of quality players, that's why they are imported across the board, if we believe clubs should "grow their own" I can only think that given the size of the Cumbrian Junior RL set up, and how much bigger it would be if there were an SL set up stimulating it's growth, it would be quite a production line.

So maybe unfair to make remarks about the numbers of quality cumbrians - that's a problem for most clubs even those at SL level.......
And that was a point I also made.


#22 West Country Eagle

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:04 AM

QUOTE (Derwent @ Jul 2 2010, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, Town have no excuse for only having 1 overseas player (Jarrad Stack) as well. Shame on them. Still, don't let facts get in the way eh ?


Calm down chief. I wasn't having a go. I didn't say your squad was full of kolpaks (as, erm, it isn't), either.

The point you made about developing your own players is a good one, too. Other Championship/Championship 1 clubs are encountering similar problems with the SL clubs on their doorsteps.
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#23 The Parksider

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:22 AM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Jul 2 2010, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would just point out that comparing a county to a town is not the same thing. I also didn't suggest that Cumbria couldn't field a SL team of Cumbrians. I was simply pointing out that we are old time and again about the wealth of talent in that region, yet even clubs in Cumbria are having to take advantage of loopholes. Nothing pointed, and not even a major criticism of Workington or Cumbria, more a comment on the state of the game that even hotbeds of the game cannot provide a strong lower-tier team.


Fair enough as always, it's interesting you quote cumbria as a "county" and Warrington as a "town".

The development of professional RL has spread not to towns - who are not excactly encouraged to apply for SL but regions like "The London Area", "Wales", "The Catalans region".

The towns who once could produce whole teams of cup winners like Featherstone, Cas and Widnes can not do that anymore, and the hope seems to be that in time teams based on regions can produce quality home grown full sides simply due to the numbers game!!

You'd have though on this basis Cumbria certainly would be a natural extension of this policy, but it seems the "population" problem (stadium as well I know, but that could be sorted) is the real bar as it's felt there would not be enough fans.

I think around 1949-51 the two West Cumbria clubs jointly averaged 18,000 gates......

#24 The Future is League

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:36 AM

we have to find away around these import rules legally, and follow what the German Bundesliga has done. i would still like to see all the imports out of the Bristish game as soon as possible though.

#25 Red Willow

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:48 AM

Think Salford might just manage a 5 a side team on just those born in Salford, but you would have to apply the same criteria to all the other teams, how many claimed by Wigan are born in the town rather than Leigh, Same for Leeds as many are from other RL playing areas.

Mot teams are looking to develop genuine academy players rather than the imports and this should be encouraged. Maybe every 5th full (3 yrs)academy player deosn't count in the cap (at whatever level)

This petty point scoring is getting out of hand. How many other sports focus on the neg?

#26 boxhead

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 11:50 AM

The Game is in a lose lose situation through its own short sighted policies

Keep the imports and the Juniors never make the grade and realise their potential.

Get rid of the imports and the lack of talent coming through due to the neglect of the game and its reliance on imports and what sort of standard is left? ( the NRL are at the opposite end of the spectrum in Cherry picking the best England has to offer, 2 or 3 at that)

What has happened in Super League in the last decade and even before that may well see the decline of the game in the coming years.

The solid foundations have not been built in Junior development, the grounds have not been developed, the fan base has not been grown.

If the TV deal was cut back the game would be on its last legs.



#27 The Parksider

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:07 PM

QUOTE (Red Willow @ Jul 2 2010, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Think Salford might just manage a 5 a side team on just those born in Salford, but you would have to apply the same criteria to all the other teams, how many claimed by Wigan are born in the town rather than Leigh, Same for Leeds as many are from other RL playing areas.

Mot teams are looking to develop genuine academy players rather than the imports and this should be encouraged. Maybe every 5th full (3 yrs)academy player deosn't count in the cap (at whatever level)

This petty point scoring is getting out of hand. How many other sports focus on the neg?


You only posted that last line becuase your club score the lowest laugh.gif

Nothing petty about discussing getting more home grown players into the clubs.

And again I feel that the merger thing was possibly a realisation that small town clubs cannot stock their sides from "locals" alone anymore.

Leeds take all the best lads from Hunslet which has helped kill Hunslet off as a serios semi pro (let alone pro) club. Wigan of course will drain leigh of fans and quality juniors.

So it's up to your lot to take the best Oldham and Rochdale have to offer like Maurice planned for you wink.gif




#28 The Parksider

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:14 PM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Jul 2 2010, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Game is in a lose lose situation through its own short sighted policies

Keep the imports and the Juniors never make the grade and realise their potential.

Get rid of the imports and the lack of talent coming through due to the neglect of the game and its reliance on imports and what sort of standard is left?

What has happened in Super League in the last decade and even before that may well see the decline of the game in the coming years.

The solid foundations have not been built in Junior development, the grounds have not been developed, the fan base has not been grown.

If the TV deal was cut back the game would be on its last legs.



Yes I take your points and agree to a point, but I do think that if we removed all but the best two or three imports from the game, then more young british players and some british NL players would have to step in.

I do think that the quality of the product on the pitch would not suffer that much as long as the teams were even which the cap aims to do. if there are supoerstars on the pitch it doesn't matter if the game is a boring one sided one. I'd take a close NL1 game over a one sided SL game anyday.

I think RL is a very entertaining game when it's close, entertaining enough to withstand the loss of around 100 antipodean journeymen.

We may not have the strength in depth player wise but Rugby League as a game per se is and always will be one of our great strengths.........

#29 boxhead

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:37 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 2 2010, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes I take your points and agree to a point, but I do think that if we removed all but the best two or three imports from the game, then more young british players and some british NL players would have to step in.

I do think that the quality of the product on the pitch would not suffer that much as long as the teams were even which the cap aims to do. if there are supoerstars on the pitch it doesn't matter if the game is a boring one sided one. I'd take a close NL1 game over a one sided SL game anyday.

I think RL is a very entertaining game when it's close, entertaining enough to withstand the loss of around 100 antipodean journeymen.

We may not have the strength in depth player wise but Rugby League as a game per se is and always will be one of our great strengths.........



What you say in many cases is true Parksider but the fans crave instant success and "name" signings.
If you pulled all of the imports out it would leave a game that would leave much to be desired even though most signings are not players at the peak of their game at Rep standard.


If every team had only three imports instead of around eight how high would the quality of those three be?


if you named the top 10 imports in Super league who would they be?

Most are journeymen and fringe players or a select few that can command far more in England than Australia like Buderus, King and Berrigan, none of those would be Test players in Australia in 2010.


#30 Bomb Jack

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:44 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 2 2010, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think RL is a very entertaining game when it's close, entertaining enough to withstand the loss of around 100 antipodean journeymen.


It is, and it could. But it shouldn't take the RFL to ban imports. The Clubs themselves are to blame. All they have to do is not employ second rate Aussie etc, but do they do it ?

No.


I bet not one SL Club has voluntarily dropped their Import quote since they got a Licence..........
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#31 Bulliac

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:47 PM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Jul 2 2010, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Game is in a lose lose situation through its own short sighted policies

Keep the imports and the Juniors never make the grade and realise their potential.

Get rid of the imports and the lack of talent coming through due to the neglect of the game and its reliance on imports and what sort of standard is left? ( the NRL are at the opposite end of the spectrum in Cherry picking the best England has to offer, 2 or 3 at that)

What has happened in Super League in the last decade and even before that may well see the decline of the game in the coming years.

The solid foundations have not been built in Junior development, the grounds have not been developed, the fan base has not been grown.

If the TV deal was cut back the game would be on its last legs.

It's time this old canard was dumped overboard. If British players are good enough they will come through; that's why we have an England team now, even though taking your logic to it's conclusion we ahouldn't have one. The idea that every kid who laces up a pair of boots will become good enough to play professionally, let alone in SL or for England If only it wasn't for thsoe pesky foreigners is plain nonesense. The vast majority of young lads taking up the game will NEVER be good enough to play at any level above amateur, with or without overseas players, for no other reason than that they simply aren't good enough. Silk purses and sows ears spring to mind.

Edited by Bulliac, 02 July 2010 - 12:49 PM.

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#32 yanto

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:56 PM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Jul 2 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yep I agree. When Cumbrian clubs are boasting about the amount of talent that they have in that region, and that they should be in SL, it is hard to stomach when you see notices like this.


Cumbrians at Super League clubs (of the top of my head there may be more?)
1.Dowes Hull
2.Purdham Quins
3.Lunt Giants
4 Olstrum Wakefield
5 Donaldson Bulls
6 Mossop Warriors

Take out the two pro West Cumbrian sides and there is a lot of young talent in the area which should be developed more.

West Cumbria are current Gilette National Youth League (under 18) champions and play off winners.

Seven West Cumbrians where in the BARLA Young Lions (under 19) tour of South Africa out of a sqaud of 24.With Ross Gainford caotain.

Eight West Cumbrians where selected to tour Russia with the BARLA under 21's.

At least two went on the under 23 tour to the Ukraine.

Two West cumbrian schools reached the National finals of the Carnegie Champion Schools Whitehaven at year 11,St Benedicts at year 9.

The Haven scholarship teams at under 15 & under 16 are more than competing against the likes of Wigan and Warrington.

All age groups seem to be producing some good talent in West Cumbria.

West Cumbria does not include Barrow and these kids have come through the CARLA set up which only has 16 clubs.






#33 Derwent

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:59 PM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Jul 2 2010, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would just point out that comparing a county to a town is not the same thing. I also didn't suggest that Cumbria couldn't field a SL team of Cumbrians. I was simply pointing out that we are old time and again about the wealth of talent in that region, yet even clubs in Cumbria are having to take advantage of loopholes. Nothing pointed, and not even a major criticism of Workington or Cumbria, more a comment on the state of the game that even hotbeds of the game cannot provide a strong lower-tier team.


The whole of the West Cumbria RL area constitutes a few small towns from Maryport to Whitehaven down the coast and across to Cockermouth in the East. The population of Warrington alone is bigger than the combined population of that area.

There is a wealth of talent in such a small area - take a look at the make up of any BARLA side at any age group and you will see them packed with West Cumbrians.

The problem is that unless they get picked up by SL teams at an early age (and quite honestly SL clubs have only just cottoned on to the benefits proper scouting up here) then many decide to stay as amateurs. They get a well paid job at somewhere like Sellafield and forget about pro RL. When you look at what the likes of Town can pay them under the CC1 salary cap then it's not surprising that many do not want to have the commitment of 4 training sessions a week plus changing shifts and taking holidays for the travelling for away games for what is basically a pittance in return. There's really no incentive for them to progress. In fact, the ones that do sign pro should be applauded because their input far exceeds the gains they make from it.

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#34 boxhead

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:01 PM

QUOTE (Bulliac @ Jul 2 2010, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's time this old canard was dumped overboard. If British players are good enough they will come through; that's why we have an England team now, even though taking your logic to it's conclusion we ahouldn't have one. The idea that every kid who laces up a pair of boots will become good enough to play professionally, let alone in SL or for England If only it wasn't for thsoe pesky foreigners is plain nonesense. The vast majority of young lads taking up the game will NEVER be good enough to play at any level above amateur, with or without overseas players, for no other reason than that they simply aren't good enough. Silk purses and sows ears spring to mind.



That is your opinion and I respect that.

If some of the money spent on importing players that occasionally do not live up to their reputation (for many reasons) that money was invested in Junior development and Coaching and building solid foundations in Schools, you do not think that in a few seasons a benefit will be produced?

There comes a point where a country has to build a structure internally to sustain its own game rather than buying talent to prop its game up.

A good comparison would be the Premier League although they will be around for some time still.

A couple of good examples would be Leeds with a Veteran and Delaney who is an also ran.
Wigan and Saints in the Centres etc etc.
Are there no good local kids or is there not enough being done to find and develop those kids because the money is being used to buy imports?

Edited by AndyCapp, 02 July 2010 - 01:08 PM.


#35 East Coast Tiger

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:09 PM

QUOTE (Derwent @ Jul 2 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The whole of the West Cumbria RL area constitutes a few small towns from Maryport to Whitehaven down the coast and across to Cockermouth in the East. The population of Warrington alone is bigger than the combined population of that area.

There is a wealth of talent in such a small area - take a look at the make up of any BARLA side at any age group and you will see them packed with West Cumbrians.

The problem is that unless they get picked up by SL teams at an early age (and quite honestly SL clubs have only just cottoned on to the benefits proper scouting up here) then many decide to stay as amateurs. They get a well paid job at somewhere like Sellafield and forget about pro RL. When you look at what the likes of Town can pay them under the CC1 salary cap then it's not surprising that many do not want to have the commitment of 4 training sessions a week plus changing shifts and taking holidays for the travelling for away games for what is basically a pittance in return. There's really no incentive for them to progress. In fact, the ones that do sign pro should be applauded because their input far exceeds the gains they make from it.

I don't doubt all of that is true. But I think the point about clubs spending a chunk of their admittedly small budget/cap on imports is limiting the amount spent on these local products. If the clubs spent all of their budget/cap on locals these fringe pro players who are tempted away from the game might stand a higher chance of staying in the game if given more compensation. The same applies to SL players who are tempted to union. If clubs like Wigan and Leeds, who have lost players to union in recent times, stopped signing imports they would naturally spend more on the very best local players and possibly prevent them going to union. At the same time they would also promote some younger players to take up the lesser roles within the squad, which would also mean more money for them and a shot at first grade.

#36 Dave T

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:10 PM

QUOTE (Derwent @ Jul 2 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The whole of the West Cumbria RL area constitutes a few small towns from Maryport to Whitehaven down the coast and across to Cockermouth in the East. The population of Warrington alone is bigger than the combined population of that area.

There is a wealth of talent in such a small area - take a look at the make up of any BARLA side at any age group and you will see them packed with West Cumbrians.

The problem is that unless they get picked up by SL teams at an early age (and quite honestly SL clubs have only just cottoned on to the benefits proper scouting up here) then many decide to stay as amateurs. They get a well paid job at somewhere like Sellafield and forget about pro RL. When you look at what the likes of Town can pay them under the CC1 salary cap then it's not surprising that many do not want to have the commitment of 4 training sessions a week plus changing shifts and taking holidays for the travelling for away games for what is basically a pittance in return. There's really no incentive for them to progress. In fact, the ones that do sign pro should be applauded because their input far exceeds the gains they make from it.
Obviously you know a hell of a lot more than me about the state of the game in your part of the world, the points I made should be taken at face value, as they were purely based on the fact that we hear there is loads of talent, yet it seems this talent isn't enough for even the lower placed teams, although your post above tackles reasons for that, thanks.

In terms of the scouting of Cumbrians, I find your comments staggering, but then I suppose we have always been one of the clubs that have looked to Cumbria, with the likes of Chris Rudd and Gary Chambers having long careers at Warrington, and hopefully Ben Harrison will do so now.


#37 yanto

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:19 PM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Jul 2 2010, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Obviously you know a hell of a lot more than me about the state of the game in your part of the world, the points I made should be taken at face value, as they were purely based on the fact that we hear there is loads of talent, yet it seems this talent isn't enough for even the lower placed teams, although your post above tackles reasons for that, thanks.

In terms of the scouting of Cumbrians, I find your comments staggering, but then I suppose we have always been one of the clubs that have looked to Cumbria, with the likes of Chris Rudd and Gary Chambers having long careers at Warrington, and hopefully Ben Harrison will do so now.

Add Jon Roper to that group and Wire had three good West Cumbrians there.All Jameaters mind you rolleyes.gif


#38 Dave T

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:38 PM

QUOTE (yanto @ Jul 2 2010, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Add Jon Roper to that group and Wire had three good West Cumbrians there.All Jameaters mind you rolleyes.gif
Yeah, thought we had more than that, not great with names!


#39 Bulliac

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Jul 2 2010, 02:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is your opinion and I respect that.

If some of the money spent on importing players that occasionally do not live up to their reputation (for many reasons) that money was invested in Junior development and Coaching and building solid foundations in Schools, you do not think that in a few seasons a benefit will be produced?

There comes a point where a country has to build a structure internally to sustain its own game rather than buying talent to prop its game up.

A good comparison would be the Premier League although they will be around for some time still.

A couple of good examples would be Leeds with a Veteran and Delaney who is an also ran.
Wigan and Saints in the Centres etc etc.
Are there no good local kids or is there not enough being done to find and develop those kids because the money is being used to buy imports?

If you mean the search for youngsters should be widened then I agree totally. Attracting kids from non-heartland areas should be a priority, simply because if they don't try the game we'll never know how good they might be and, sad to say, there are thousands, even hundreds of thousands, of young boys who don't evern consider RL when thinking about playing a sport, for no other reason than there is little opportunity where they live. This is being addressed to some extent and there is a great deal more amateur league played up and down the country and the more professional clubs we can get in these areas the more there is something for the kids to aspire to.

With all due respect to everyone I don't think there is much to be gained (in terms of more players achieving professional status) by throwing more money at the heartlands; the system, haphazard as it is at the service area stage, does seem to work, with the cream rising through the ranks. Losing the imports will only leave gaps to be filled by players of a lower standard, lets be honest, gaps filled by players not good enough to displace 'second rate Kolpaks'.

There is a belief from some posters that if only we give kids the time they need they will all become 'stars', well, I'm sorry, they won't. Even at SL level, clubs would be very happy with a couple of each years intake coming through, eventually, to the first team; even with first class professional coaching many so called 'elite' academy players just don't make it at the top level. As in all walks of life, so it is with rugby league, and the fortunate few reach the top but the overwhelming majority don't, and yes, you can maximise their potential, but if you only succeed in making an amateur player a slightly better amateur then we just have to accept that that is his fate in life and let him enjoy it.

Edited by Bulliac, 02 July 2010 - 02:49 PM.

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#40 Derwent

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (yanto @ Jul 2 2010, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Add Jon Roper to that group and Wire had three good West Cumbrians there.All Jameaters mind you rolleyes.gif


Dave Elliott was there at the same time so make that four !

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