64 replies to this topic

[Shadow]

So what. It's got nothing to do with you.

I personally don't give a rats ###### about NSW or Queensland. Do you think the Australians should abandon State of Origin because I don't have a team to support.

It's got as much to do with me as it has with anyone else in this country.
I responded to a suggestion that the MM weekend and Challenge cup be scrapped and that Londoners and Cumbrians choose either team or don't get invited to the party and quite frankly it's one of the most ludicrous and insular suggestions I've ever seen on this board.
The Challenge Cup is part of Rugby League's heritage and should be given far more prominence by the RFL than it currently gets, part of the attraction of it (and in my view of the FIFA world cup as well) is that everyone has an involvement so the event itself is given a huge boost to start and then develops a momentum of it's own. Casual viewers become engaged and then some will maintain that engagement through the competition as their team drops out and then beyond the finish of the event.

The "Magic" weekend was one of the few innovations from Rugby League that may have actually helped spread the word, I went to the first one in Cardiff and thoroughly enjoyed it (despite meeting some dodgy characters...Johnoco ) I went with other "casual" RL fans and since then we have all been to several Harlequins games and took a bigger group to the second weekend. In my view (for what it's worth) this event is worth persevering with, it will take time to develop it so it becomes an event in and of itself, an event that will get people attending who are not dyed in the wool RL fans but rather who will attend a number of "big" events through the year, British GP, Grand National, 6Nations, Henley Regatta.......Actually probably not Henley.
Dropping that potential for a parochial ersatz copy of an Australian event sends out all the wrong signals about the vibrant national growing sport of Rugby League.

Whether you care about NSW or Queensland is irrelevant to the running of the Aussie SOO competition but whether people from Cheltenham, Winchester or Margate give a Rat's ###### about Yorkshire vs Lancashire is entirely relevant to the running of a UK competition.

[Futtocks]

It's got as much to do with me as it has with anyone else in this country.
I responded to a suggestion that the MM weekend and Challenge cup be scrapped and that Londoners and Cumbrians choose either team or don't get invited to the party and quite frankly it's one of the most ludicrous and insular suggestions I've ever seen on this board.
The Challenge Cup is part of Rugby League's heritage and should be given far more prominence by the RFL than it currently gets, part of the attraction of it (and in my view of the FIFA world cup as well) is that everyone has an involvement so the event itself is given a huge boost to start and then develops a momentum of it's own. Casual viewers become engaged and then some will maintain that engagement through the competition as their team drops out and then beyond the finish of the event.

The "Magic" weekend was one of the few innovations from Rugby League that may have actually helped spread the word, I went to the first one in Cardiff and thoroughly enjoyed it (despite meeting some dodgy characters...Johnoco ) I went with other "casual" RL fans and since then we have all been to several Harlequins games and took a bigger group to the second weekend. In my view (for what it's worth) this event is worth persevering with, it will take time to develop it so it becomes an event in and of itself, an event that will get people attending who are not dyed in the wool RL fans but rather who will attend a number of "big" events through the year, British GP, Grand National, 6Nations, Henley Regatta.......Actually probably not Henley.
Dropping that potential for a parochial ersatz copy of an Australian event sends out all the wrong signals about the vibrant national growing sport of Rugby League.

Whether you care about NSW or Queensland is irrelevant to the running of the Aussie SOO competition but whether people from Cheltenham, Winchester or Margate give a Rat's ###### about Yorkshire vs Lancashire is entirely relevant to the running of a UK competition.

Plenty of good points there.

I remember watching the last Yorks v Lancs/Cheshire/Greater Manchester and it was terrible, with a poor turnout and a mediocre spectacle on the field.

Remember, also, that when State of Origin was first suggested, it was derided by just about everyone as a gimmicky concept that would never work. And maybe if that first match hadn't been such a classic, it might have withered away like the War of the Roses.

So there's a bit of luck involved, because you can't guarantee a classic match ahead of the event.

Failing everything else, get the whole England squad together, appoint two captains and let 'em pick the teams, school playground style. Winner of the coin toss gets first pick, then they alternate.

[bendyas]

It'd work if the games were used as a trial for the test team more so than regular fixtures.

[deluded pom?]

Here we go, let's throw cold water on the idea then, might as well take me bloody ball home!

Sort out the player apathy first and then you wouldn't get fan apathy.

[Dave T]

Sort out the player apathy first and then you wouldn't get fan apathy.

I think that is very harsh. Whilst some of the media comments from people who should know better are poor, the players very rarely let us down on the pitch.

The fact that the England games didn't sell out a month before the 4N was a disgrace, those tickets should be like golddust in grounds that size.

[deluded pom?]

I think that is very harsh. Whilst some of the media comments from people who should know better are poor, the players very rarely let us down on the pitch.

The fact that the England games didn't sell out a month before the 4N was a disgrace, those tickets should be like golddust in grounds that size.

I'm not talking about England Dave but some made up team that few relate to with any passion and very little, if any, pride.

[Steve May]

It's got as much to do with me as it has with anyone else in this country.



Whether you care about NSW or Queensland is irrelevant to the running of the Aussie SOO competition but whether people from Cheltenham, Winchester or Margate give a Rat's ###### about Yorkshire vs Lancashire is entirely relevant to the running of a UK competition.

Lots of good points there, including a very valid one about the standard of the game itself, but you still haven't really explained why you should care about Yorkshire playing Lancashire so negatively.

Do you really think that anyone in Cheltenham, Winchester or Margate is going to be put off the game because Yorkshire play Lancashire? Why on earth would that be true?

Can you really imagine the conversation going

"Dave, there's a new rugby league club starting up this summer, do you fancy going down and having a shot at it?"

"No mate, I heard that Yorkshire played Lancashire a few weeks ago. Being a Margate lad I felt so excluded that I couldn't bring myself to have anything to do with that game"

Would people really say that? Really?

[Steve May]

Plenty of good points there.

I remember watching the last Yorks v Lancs/Cheshire/Greater Manchester and it was terrible, with a poor turnout and a mediocre spectacle on the field.

A poor turnout, but still higher than England vs France.

Of course, England vs France excludes my best mate from having an interest therefore I think it should be stopped before it damages the game any more.

He's Welsh.

[Steve May]

I think that is very harsh. Whilst some of the media comments from people who should know better are poor, the players very rarely let us down on the pitch.

Unless they're wearing international shirts, in which case it happens more or less every time they play.

[Shadow]

Lots of good points there, including a very valid one about the standard of the game itself, but you still haven't really explained why you should care about Yorkshire playing Lancashire so negatively.

Do you really think that anyone in Cheltenham, Winchester or Margate is going to be put off the game because Yorkshire play Lancashire? Why on earth would that be true?

Can you really imagine the conversation going

"Dave, there's a new rugby league club starting up this summer, do you fancy going down and having a shot at it?"

"No mate, I heard that Yorkshire played Lancashire a few weeks ago. Being a Margate lad I felt so excluded that I couldn't bring myself to have anything to do with that game"

Would people really say that? Really?

My objection to a Yorks / Lancs clash as a replacement for the Magic weekend or Challenge cup is this:
Both the Magic weekend and Challenge cup are inclusive events, one by bringing Rugby League to a new area the other by involving every club in the knockout whereas an artificially created "event" involving two northern heartland counties firstly does little to dispel the myth of Rugby League being confined to T'M62 corridor and secondly will not appeal to these mythical inhabitants of Margate.

Can you imagine these same Kentish men saying "Orright son, d'yer see that rahgby league on the telly the ovver day? i really identify wiv them blokes from Lancashire. I can't wait to get me boots on cor blimey mary poppins" And that's exactly how they talk

By the way if the RFL are trying to appeal to your welsh mate by showing him England / France games then they are even more deluded than The best The beautiful etc , they want to be showing them anyone beating England, that's how to excite the Taffs

Edited by Shadow, 07 July 2010 - 04:40 PM.

[Dave T]

Unless they're wearing international shirts, in which case it happens more or less every time they play.

You may see getting beaten by a better team as letting us down, but I have never questioned their effort or commitment. And tbh I was referring to the players as a whole, ie the 34 players involved in the game.

[deluded pom?]

I'm not doubting the players efforts in an England shirt Dave but I'm sure you'll agree that towards the end of the WotR series of games some players were simply going through the motions. This was easily picked up on by the fans hence the dwindling attendances. I just don't believe there's a format out there that satisfies what people, be they players, coaches or fans, are looking for. It's all good and well to suggest these type of games but we know from past experience that they just don't work, for whatever reasons. If they sent a full strength Kiwi team over to play us they still wouldn't fill the chosen stadium. Unfortunately only one match stirs the average RL fan and during the early 2000s this was milked to death with Australia seemingly here every season without fail. Maybe that's one of the reasons we can't even sell out a 25,000 seater stadium even now against Australia. Does familiarity breed contempt?

Edited by deluded pom?, 07 July 2010 - 06:13 PM.

[Methven Hornet]

There's about as much consensus as the England shirt thread...

The problem with any game like this - especially if it is to be used as a test trial - is that the English game has a limited number of sufficiently talented players. If a top star cries off or doesn't give his all then he knows he will still make the national team. Contrast that with the Australian situation where players are desperate to play Origin, knowing that any absence will give their place to a rival.

[Methven Hornet]

Origin; the place from where someone comes.

Castleford and Fev are towns in their own right, yes they may be in the metropolitan borough of Wakefield but we're talking 'roots' here just as Leigh is not really 'in' Wigan. Players representing their town or city of birth is surely something to be proud of and as a Widnesian I'd be more than interested seeing Richie (if selected) representing our town just as the Oldham folk would be of Sinfield and Eastmond.

As for probs vs possibles, not interested, who would you shout for? and the east/west thing where do you draw the line? (don't say the pennines, means nothing in Wales or down south) For me there already is a town vs city rivalry and I think it would bring out a bit of ferocity in such an encounter.

The Pennines! I was assuming this was an England trial I must admit. The traditional RL is the obvious dividing line; where you continue the divide once you get into the badlands south of there probably isn't that important at this stage given how few England international class players come from the south. It just means that Londoners play in the East of England side, and the Cumbrians in the West as of right. They are not just spirited into a Lancashire or Yorkshire side but have legitimacy. Northerners will know it is Yorkshire v Lancashire/Cumberland, but those in the rest of England have a real stake in the event and aren't alienated.

However, given the lack of commitment from all concerned, any SoO scheme is probably doomed before it begins.

[Dave T]

I'm not doubting the players efforts in an England shirt Dave but I'm sure you'll agree that towards the end of the WotR series of games some players were simply going through the motions. This was easily picked up on by the fans hence the dwindling attendances. I just don't believe there's a format out there that satisfies what people, be they players, coaches or fans, are looking for. It's all good and well to suggest these type of games but we know from past experience that they just don't work, for whatever reasons. If they sent a full strength Kiwi team over to play us they still wouldn't fill the chosen stadium. Unfortunately only one match stirs the average RL fan and during the early 2000s this was milked to death with Australia seemingly here every season without fail. Maybe that's one of the reasons we can't even sell out a 25,000 seater stadium even now against Australia. Does familiarity breed contempt?

Agree with much of it, but sticking to the Origin concept for now.

The first game back in the SL era was at Headingley which attracted a 10k crowd and was very enjoyable.

Based on that they decided to make it a home and away series the year later. The first game at Wigan was played in front of around 7k, despite the players going at it (including a huge brawl in a scrum). Not sure about the 2nd game can't remember it.

The next year they went back to one game, and played it at Odsal. Yorks battered Lancs and they sacked it off.

The organisation was poor, and it wasn't given a chance by the RFL. Had they played the Lancs game at Warrington or Widnes for example, a 7-10k crowd would have created a good atmosphere based on the RL that was provided.

Doncaster or similar would do the same in Yorks.

They made a good start bringing it back, but played it at completely wrong venues before giving it time to grow after a very positive first year.

Edited by Dave T, 07 July 2010 - 09:39 PM.

[Joe Shep]

The next year they went back to one game, and played it at Odsal. Yorks battered Lancs and they sacked it off.

I remember that game. Lancs still had their 'star' players playing.

Problem was that come the internationals at the end of the year, all of the usual suspects were still in the team* and few of the Yorkshire players made the squad. This made the concept of Yorks v Lancs being used as a test trial completely redundant.

*and we still got beat by the Aussies...

Edited by Joe Shep, 07 July 2010 - 10:27 PM.

[Dave T]

I remember that game. Lancs still had their 'star' players playing.

Problem was that come the internationals at the end of the year, all of the usual suspects were still in the team* and few of the Yorkshire players made the squad. This made the concept of Yorks v Lancs being used as a test trial completely redundant.

*and we still got beat by the Aussies...

Yep, I just don't think people bought into it as an individual event, or as a Test trial.

I would like to see the England manager overseeing the whole thing, with some input in selection if required. It also needs to be at least two games. I also think there is more choice in key positions which is worth testing now. In the halves you could have Tomkins and Eastmond vs Pryce and McGuire, and still have Myler and Burrow on the bench. The forwards would also be very interesting, and you could test out the riskier three-quarters who appear to do well at club level, but maybe are a risk at Test level.

[no13benny]

Heartland: featuring players from the historical heartland

versus

Outer Alliance (name variable open to ideas): Everyone else - who like Queensland will start with a chip on their shoulder.

Possible OA team:

1. Clint Greenshields (France)
2. Pat Richards (Ireland)
3. Tony Clubb (London)
4. Jean Phillippe-Baille (France)
5. Dimitri Pelo (France)
6. Thomas Bosc (France)
7. Lee Briers (Wales)
8. Louie McCarthy-Scarsbrook (London)
9. Michael McIllorum (Ireland)
10. Olivier Elima (France)
11. Sebastien Raguin (France)
12. Jamal Fakir (France)
13. Gregory Mounis (France)

14. Ben Fisher (Scotland)
15. Jerome Guisset (France)
16. David Ferriol (France)
17. Gareth Thomas (Wales)

[Steve May]

You may see getting beaten by a better team as letting us down, but I have never questioned their effort or commitment.

You've not seen England/GB play recently then. There's been many times when they've been so abject you have to question their effort or commitment.

[Steve May]

My objection to a Yorks / Lancs clash as a replacement for the Magic weekend or Challenge cup is this:
Both the Magic weekend and Challenge cup are inclusive events, one by bringing Rugby League to a new area the other by involving every club in the knockout whereas an artificially created "event" involving two northern heartland counties firstly does little to dispel the myth of Rugby League being confined to T'M62 corridor and secondly will not appeal to these mythical inhabitants of Margate.

Can you imagine these same Kentish men saying "Orright son, d'yer see that rahgby league on the telly the ovver day? i really identify wiv them blokes from Lancashire. I can't wait to get me boots on cor blimey mary poppins" And that's exactly how they talk

By the way if the RFL are trying to appeal to your welsh mate by showing him England / France games then they are even more deluded than The best The beautiful etc , they want to be showing them anyone beating England, that's how to excite the Taffs

Firstly, any Yorkshire vs Lancashire clash is not artificial. If you can't market a snail race between those two you've got problems. And people who say that noone cares about Lancashire really should get along to Old Trafford for a Twenty20 Roses game and see if you still agree.

Second, about your Kentish friend. So he doesn't have much interest in Yorkshire vs Lancashire? So what. It has nothing to do with him anyway. Not everything has to appeal to everyone to be worth doing.

Your argument really is like saying "New Zealand cannot play Australia because people trying to develop the game in Italy will have noone to support"


BTW, the Magic weekend isn't particularly "inclusive". I've yet to see a team from Margate participate in it. I therefore think we should get rid of it as it just perpetuates the myth that rugby league is a game for Northerners.