18 replies to this topic

[Errol Stock]

I wrote to Peter Hood in January 2006 voicing concerns about Bulls (falling) attendances and lack of PR and the apparent reduction of community presence (and more).

He invited me for a chat about my concerns, so I and a friend went up for a couple of hours. A very nice man, honest and forthright - and held nothing back when asked a question.

Prior to the meeting, I had written to Wigan with regard to their (amazing) crowd stats - on the rise despite losing a lot of games and struggling to stay off the bottom. Their reply was rapid and interesting, without telling me the secret. "Our marketing strategy in not based on results on the field but on other aspects" - hmmm well it certainly worked.

So it was my main point for Peter Hood - how could we turn round the falling attendances? Was he willing to listen and learn from the Wigan model?

His reply at the time was to run the video of the proposed new stadium - which he believed to be the crux of the problem. He thought that crowds would not rise until we had proper facilities.

At the time - I thought it was a big gamble - and a necessary one. But I could not understand why the stadium was the only answer and maybe more backroom work on bringing fans back wouldn't go amiss.

4 years on and as expected - not a chance of a new stadium - which, compared to the current crisis at 1st team level has become almost a secondary issue.

I believe Bulls are now heading toward extinction, caught in the spiral of falling finances related to falling supporter income, based on the performances on the field of play. The people who have now stopped going find other things to do with their time and generally do not go back.

Its harder to recover now than in the sixties as all the standards and requirements for re-birth are higher and the competition is tougher. Also since the sixties (and eighties), the target audience in Bradford has radically changed and diminished.

The dogged determination to stick with McNamara, for me is the biggest error made. As said before - its not the defeats - its the manner and attitude behind them that is the biggest indicator of the team moral.

" Lowlights include getting stuffed at Odsal by Hull in front of a crowd of less than 2,000 during the Barry Seabourne coaching era. Almost managing to lose a Cup tie against Highfield under the dreadful tenure of Aussie coach Ron Willey. The cries of 'Willey Out!' during the game being the only thing that lightened the mood that day. And best (worst) of all, the debut of our £80k RU signing Terry Holmes away at Swinton. He got injured in the first ten minutes and missed the rest of the season, we lost the game 8-0 and went bottom of the league.

But you know what? It wasn't the end of the world."

All fair points - but can you see a light at the end of the current tunnel?

"I recall Wigan being second bottom well into the season a couple of years back.No moans, no groans, and big crowds turning up to back the side, and back the side they did."

Prior to the meeting, I had written to Wigan with regard to their (amazing) crowd stats - on the rise despite losing quite a lot of games and struggling to stay off the bottom. Their reply was rapid and interesting, without telling me the secret. "Our marketing strategy in not based on results on the field but on other aspects" - hmmm well it certainly worked.

More to this than meets the eye - fantastic job done by someone at Wigan - but what fantastic facilities and what a great chairman they now have.

"The crowds will be down again next season as people who have been following the club since the 50's, 60's and 70's turn their back on the club, meaning even less money coming into the club, to spend on players.The players are badly underperforming, showing no effort or determination whatsoever, they don't look interested when out on the field. I can't remember Northern going through such a bad patch. I'm actually ashamed to be wearing the the famous red, amber & black right now, such was the embarrassment that I've just seen. "

Mick cops a lot of criticism - but he remains the most ardent Bulls fan. Which is why his quote above is the most accurate indicator of where we are today and where we will be next season. I personally shredded my season ticket last year after the performance V Warrington (Home) - I just found it too depressing. I would guess another 2000 have followed me since.

Problems Short List

• Cannot attract (high calibre) players
• Cannot attract (high calibre) coaches
• Falling attendances
• Falling income
• 1st team have given up
• Crumbling Stadium consumes the diminishing income

Finally - I have no doubt that Peter Hood will have to move the club to Valley Parade for it to remain in existance, which in itself would have been very difficult with a succcessful team. Now, although he has no choice, it will likely be seen as the final nail in the coffin.

And my final question, You have been the Chairman of Bradford Bulls since January 2006. What would you have done different and what decisions would you have made to resolve our issues?

[ckn]

That's a difficult post to reply to!

One thing though, when Wigan were struggling a few years ago and people were genuinely wondering whether they'd be relegated or not, they were getting large crowds because there was something to play for, the players had to go out and perform or the club would go down with a lot of players losing their jobs in the far more financially limiting NL1 (at the time). Every Wigan game I saw in the latter half of that season was gritty and damnably good entertainment because there was something to play for and the fans, club and players knew it.

There's no large "stick" for the current Bradford side and players. If Bradford don't make the play-offs, they don't have to worry about relegation and the season becomes meaningless. Why would fans want to turn up to a game with no real meaning, played by players who have proven over a season they are not motivated or playing like a team?

I have no real clue what to do to fix Bradford but if I had to give suggestions then the first would be sacking the coach, I doubt that I have to give too many reasons why! Also, there is the time to fix the players as well as a ###### season will not result in relegation and there's no doubt that Bradford will get a franchise next time. Make it clear to the under-performing players that their contracts are not going to be renewed unless they start pulling their weight relative to the salary they're paid.

[Dave T]

That's a difficult post to reply to!

One thing though, when Wigan were struggling a few years ago and people were genuinely wondering whether they'd be relegated or not, they were getting large crowds because there was something to play for, the players had to go out and perform or the club would go down with a lot of players losing their jobs in the far more financially limiting NL1 (at the time). Every Wigan game I saw in the latter half of that season was gritty and damnably good entertainment because there was something to play for and the fans, club and players knew it.

There's no large "stick" for the current Bradford side and players. If Bradford don't make the play-offs, they don't have to worry about relegation and the season becomes meaningless. Why would fans want to turn up to a game with no real meaning, played by players who have proven over a season they are not motivated or playing like a team?

I have no real clue what to do to fix Bradford but if I had to give suggestions then the first would be sacking the coach, I doubt that I have to give too many reasons why! Also, there is the time to fix the players as well as a ###### season will not result in relegation and there's no doubt that Bradford will get a franchise next time. Make it clear to the under-performing players that their contracts are not going to be renewed unless they start pulling their weight relative to the salary they're paid.

The thing is though that Bradford aren't massively at risk of finishing in the bottom two anyway, so even with P&R in place there would probably still be this lethargy at the Bulls.

Unless of course you live in Lobby's world where it's 4 up and 4 down, with promoted teams protected for a year, meaning that you could finish 7th and be relegated!

[EastLondonMike]

personally i think the answer might just be a simple one.. bradford arent playing that well, and havent been for a few years. the players they've signed havent been that exciting (menzies and orford excepted), and the good players they have signed havent had that great effect on the team as a whole.. combine that with an inexperienced coach going into the job with the team already in a tough position, who doesnt have the reputation and finances to attract the calibre of player of the likes of wigan, leeds and st.helens and thats a large part of the problem. Also Bradford is a lot bigger than wigan.. so wigan's marketing campaigns would probably be a lot more focused in a smaller area.. and therefore easier to reach people/create hype.

bradford will have there day in the sun again, im sure of that.. it might need the club to go for a young coach eager to show his talents like hudds, catalans and wigan did in brown, potter and mcguire.. or it might be the emergence of a couple of young players who go on to be stars, combined with a couple of good solid signings.. and bradford getting that shiny new stadium probably would help also

[Amber Avenger]

Well thought out post Errol - and whilst I don't agree with it all, I at least see where you are coming from and your concerns are genuine.

In answer to the question "What would you have done differently in 2006 if you were chairman" the answer I suspect most people - including myself - would give is "not much". Not for want, or because I because I don't have the ambition it's because I wouldn't have the resources to impliment them - as Peter Hood hasn't had.

It's so easy to say with hindsight that McNamara should have gone in year x/y/z - but the reality of the situation is that you'd have to pay the guy off with money the club presumably doesn't have spare. I suppose one thing I realistically would have done was not give Macca such a long contract - but then again if I'd personally known the guy and what he does day to day I would have felt differently.

Same with "hiring more PR people" etc - which is a common criticism of the club. I'm not saying that isn't valid, but at the same time you can't pay people with good intentions. It's a catch 22 situation, because lack of cash flow is preventing implimenting something that would eventually increase the cash flow!

The thing is, I can't realistically think of anything in that four year period that could be changed to drastically turn around our fortunes. Every decision that has come out of the club in the past four years I haven't always agreed with, but I have understood why it has been done. Indeed if I had the power to go back and change things, you'd have to go back to 1997ish to stop the club getting in this mess in the first place.

Let me turn this around on you Errol and ask what would bring you back (you say you shredded your season ticket - do you go to any games)? I ask because as someone with seemingly so much passion for the club, it slightly seems as if you are cutting your nose off to spite your face - for want of a better phrase. Please don't think I'm having a pop, but as a passionate fan of the club myself, I think it would take a lot more than the lazy performances of late for me to pack it in, so I'm interested to see your take on it.

Ce message a été modifié par Amber Avenger - 12 juillet 2010 - 12:23 .

[MrPosh]

Indeed if I had the power to go back and change things, you'd have to go back to 1997ish to stop the club getting in this mess in the first place.

Would you change things though?

Is the 'mess' now a price worth paying for the success in the intervening period? Providing that the mess isn't the death knell that Errol is suggesting, I think it probably is.

Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. (OK - better to still be loving, but you get the point).

[ckn]

The thing is though that Bradford aren't massively at risk of finishing in the bottom two anyway, so even with P&R in place there would probably still be this lethargy at the Bulls.

Unless of course you live in Lobby's world where it's 4 up and 4 down, with promoted teams protected for a year, meaning that you could finish 7th and be relegated!

Bradford are 5 points clear of 2nd bottom place. That's 3 games Salford would need to win to overtake them. In a P&R season, that would be squeaky-bum time with such a misfiring side and many of the teams below you showing more fight.

I agree that they show no real sign of ending in the bottom two but they're not exactly showing any desire to get away from that end of the table.

[Dave T]

Bradford are 5 points clear of 2nd bottom place. That's 3 games Salford would need to win to overtake them. In a P&R season, that would be squeaky-bum time with such a misfiring side and many of the teams below you showing more fight.

I agree that they show no real sign of ending in the bottom two but they're not exactly showing any desire to get away from that end of the table.

Yeah, to be fair I thought my post was up for challenge, but even had they won at the weekend, they would have pretty much been safe, but I still feel the lethargy would be around the club.

[Errol Stock]

Let me turn this around on you Errol and ask what would bring you back (you say you shredded your season ticket - do you go to any games)? I ask because as someone with seemingly so much passion for the club, it slightly seems as if you are cutting your nose off to spite your face - for want of a better phrase. Please don't think I'm having a pop, but as a passionate fan of the club myself, I think it would take a lot more than the lazy performances of late for me to pack it in, so I'm interested to see your take on it.

I was getting annoyed with the style of play under Noble to be honest. Our nickname of the Dulls - while I hate it, was actually true. I think the slide in attendances began then and we had already lost what Brian Smith re-launched the club with - that is the desire to ENTERTAIN.

I also confess to being tainted by success - even after following them through the years of going nowhere. Not so much as the "winning is a right" but having tasted Entertaining and thrilling rugby league, I was not (an I am not) prepared to watch a team that bores me and compounds that by showing little interest. So yes - I fall in the category of having raised expectations due to past success.

I was so angry when I shredded my ticket - I knew I wouldnt' return as long as things remained the same, which is why I admire those remaining fans - and why Micks quote is a true indicator.

I still have a passion but I enjoy watching other teams more now - in fact thats true of the situation before I quit!

As for what I would do - like you - cannot see much that could be different - apart from the stuff with the benefit of hindsight.

I'm not popping at Peter Hood either, he did inherit one hell of a mess and who would want to be Chairman of Bradford Bulls anyway? We need to remember he is there because nobody else wanted it.


I'm just looking for responses really, to see if anyone comes up with interesting ideas or viewpoints on it.

[Amber Avenger]

Would you change things though?

Is the 'mess' now a price worth paying for the success in the intervening period? Providing that the mess isn't the death knell that Errol is suggesting, I think it probably is.

Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. (OK - better to still be loving, but you get the point).

Sure I would change things - I still think the club could have planned better for the future and attained the success they did rather than live soully for the moment. There is no reason why they couldn't have done both IMO - although again the benefit of hindsight is a glorious thing.

[Amber Avenger]

I'm not popping at Peter Hood either, he did inherit one hell of a mess and who would want to be Chairman of Bradford Bulls anyway? We need to remember he is there because nobody else wanted it.

Yep totally agree. I have a lot of time for him, even though a lot of "fans" don't.

Great response generally by the way. Really interesting to have a well thought out viewpoint from that side of things

[tonyXIII]

One of the things that are adversely affecting Bradford right now is the Odsal problem. This problem has been around for a long time and Bradford are no nearer to a solution now than they were twenty years ago.

My own club has had a similar problem and it's taken twenty years to finally start digging ground on our new site. About two years ago, I asked why couldn't we just redevelop The Willows because I felt that it had to be a cheaper option than building a new stadium. The responses convinced me that redevelopment was impossible because the ground is hemmed-in on all sides by residential accommodation which would make it impossible to carry out the necessary works.

Odsal is not hemmed-in. I believe a steady, planned redevelopment is an option. Now that the speedway track is no longer used (it didn't look like it when I was there on Easter Monday), you could really turn it into a modern, rectangular stadium.

So, that is what I would have done differently. I would have made a decision on Odsal and carried it through. Be it a move to Valley Parade or a redevelopment. The redevelopment would need a lot of money, but it is part of the Chairman's job to attract money into the club and/or seek backers/partners to bring such things about.

If the Chairman has done this and the plans have been screwed up by external factors, then I apologise for wasting your time, but I thought I'd give a response anyway.

[Tommy The C5t]

Good post Errol and it's going take me quite a while to give you a reply, but I'm sure it'll be worth the wait.

[Tommy The C5t]

One of the things that are adversely affecting Bradford right now is the Odsal problem. This problem has been around for a long time and Bradford are no nearer to a solution now than they were twenty years ago.

My own club has had a similar problem and it's taken twenty years to finally start digging ground on our new site. About two years ago, I asked why couldn't we just redevelop The Willows because I felt that it had to be a cheaper option than building a new stadium. The responses convinced me that redevelopment was impossible because the ground is hemmed-in on all sides by residential accommodation which would make it impossible to carry out the necessary works.

Odsal is not hemmed-in. I believe a steady, planned redevelopment is an option. Now that the speedway track is no longer used (it didn't look like it when I was there on Easter Monday), you could really turn it into a modern, rectangular stadium.

So, that is what I would have done differently. I would have made a decision on Odsal and carried it through. Be it a move to Valley Parade or a redevelopment. The redevelopment would need a lot of money, but it is part of the Chairman's job to attract money into the club and/or seek backers/partners to bring such things about.

If the Chairman has done this and the plans have been screwed up by external factors, then I apologise for wasting your time, but I thought I'd give a response anyway.

It's not been used since 1998 Tony.

[Errol Stock]

If the Chairman has done this and the plans have been screwed up by external factors, then I apologise for wasting your time, but I thought I'd give a response anyway.

Thanks TonyXIII - this is a whole thread if its allowed to run - in summary, there is an involvement with other parties and a shortage of funding - just made even shorter by the ConDemed govt cuts.. There are so many involved - there is no way you could pick a single contributory factor.

It was always a long shot bearing in mind Bradford centre is just a hole in the ground - there was never much chance Odsal would be anything different.

[Bulligerent]

If i may say Errol, before i try to answer the question you pose in your thread, it is always a pleasure to read your contributions to this forum.

I think the first thing i would have done differently and i don't think you even need the benefit of hindsight on this point, is remove the coach at the end of last season at the latest (although it probably should have been done during the season before). I have no doubt that McNamara's heart has always and will always be in the right place but i'm afraid he simply is not up to the job and in my personal opinion that is proven beyond doubt. I will not join with some (not particularly on this forum) who have made personal attacks on the man but in terms of player recruitment, player development, squad management, tactics etc he has been found to be completely and utterly inept.

If i had been Chairman, clearly any replacement for McNamara would have to be sought within the budget constraints imposed by having had to relieve one coach of his duties and replace him with another but i think even appointing an experienced number two from Down Under (in the Wigan mould) could not have yielded any more a disastorous result than the decision to allow McNamara to continue clearly has this season.

I think with a view to bringing fans back on side, i would have made Ryan Duckett a much more vocal and visual link with the fans. Whenever i have spoken to Ryan (usually at away games when there is an opportunity) he comes across as a very straight-forward, eloquent communicator with a great passion for the Bulls in particular but the game of RL as a whole. He is also the only member of the Board i have seen this season actually express an opinion on our plight or make any kind of direct appeal to the fans for their attendance at matches in the public domain (i.e. other than via programme notes for example, which if you are already not attending games, you are not going to read anyway!). I am not 100% certain but given the tone of the communication, it seemed to me to be something that Ryan had taken upon himself to do and i think backed up by a better marketing strategy and a clearer focus on why some fans no longer attend, he would be a very effective tool in the club re-connecting with the fans (active or lapsed).

To that end, i would actively survey lapsed fans (ex season ticket holders and members of the ticketing database who have either not bought a ticket for some time or purchase on an irregular basis) to find out what exactly it is that has stopped them either renewing a ticket or coming to games altogether. I am quite sure that some of the downturn has to be attributed to finance and/or the teams' performance on the field but certainly i know that a number of friends of mine have stopped coming to games purely in protest at McNamara (which brings me back to point one) and given that he is leaving come the end of the season whatever the rest of this years holds, it has to be worth finding out from those fans what would bring them back to games given that i personally feel many are potentially lost to the club at least for the foreseeable future even after the current coach goes simply because of that disaffection they now feel towards a Board they see as having sat on their hands when it comes to the coaching issues at the club.

Coupled with that, i would engage the bright minds at both the College (as current sponsors) and, if they could be brought on board, Bradford University to help with strategies for marketing and and market research of the clubs' fan base. If we have had to cut back on the budget in these areas, it must be worth exploring how the club can engage staff and colleagues at establishments such as the College in successfully feeding that expertise into the club and the boardroom. It would seem to me that without wishing to suggest that the club could effectively 'take advantage' of the college and get something for nothing, there is potentially a huge potential to tap into expertise without having to directly employ staff and the club could incentivise the College to help with this via the sponsorship package.

I would also take a leaf out of the book of the board at the football club, who despite not getting everything right and being disliked by some members of the Bulls camp and supporters, do seem to be highly successful in engaging local business leaders who also happen to be fans of the club. I know that they set up a register of volunteers (both practical and business) who are willing to offer, free of charge, their expertise, time and in some cases money in helping the club cut the costs that drain from their cashflow, be this someone volunteering to undertake some practical work around the ground (i notice that Mitton Engineering for instance recently undertook a free energy audit at Valley Parade, which will save the club tens of thousands of pounds during the coming years based purely on its findings that the club had a water leak at one end of the ground, which would not have been undertaken but for the club proactively seeking the help of local businessmen who are willing to support the club), through to a former Morrisons director taking on some of the Commercial Directorship role on a free of charge, part time basis.

The club could also be hugely more active in selling itself via new media but also even more simply by getting their online content right. The online shop on the Bulls website for instance is absolutely apalling with a very poor range of merchandise available and goods very poorly presented. It is not as though this has been a temporary problem, the online shop in particular has been in this state for as long as i can remember and when the actual physical facilities that the club has by was of a club shop basically consist of a portakabin, they simply have to do more online and use that increased traffic on the website to sell the image of the club and again encourage support, and more importanly spending.

Finally, for now (although i feel i could go on), the club simply have to bring those fans that do remain, do attend games, do attend the forums and simply want honest appraisals of how the land lies at the club and what they can do to help other than spending their hard-eanred on attending the games, into the light. The club must be more communicative with the fans and offer us a clearer picture on the state of the club, issues of concern, areas where fan engagement or volunterring could have benefits to the club. I also believe that if the club has tried something or taken on board suggestions of the fans they should be much more open in publicising this, how else can we now whether or not the suggestions we make are useful and if not look at alternative ways in which we can be of help to the club? The alternative is fans simply continue to criticise, continue to be disenfranchised and become another lost attendee and ultimately another lost revenue stream.

[Bulliac]

I tend to go along with Amber's take on this, particularly that if you want to go over what could have been done better, the late nineties would have been a better starting point. I say this because at that time the possibility of doing something radically different still existed, whilst during the last four years we have been hamstrung financially, with little room to manoeuvre. We would be using the same 20/20 hindsight in either case.

We should have fixed the roof whilst the sun was shining, I guess, except of course, the ground was always going to be re-developed wasn't it? At virtually every given minute since the late nineties one scheme or another was on the go and, oh so certain, to go ahead. So why would we have wasted money? Well, deep down, or not really that deep down, we all knew full well the national stadium was never going to built at Odsal. With Wembley also bidding, if our application had been ten times as good for one tenth of the cost it would still have gone to Wembley, surely we all knew that?

But that didn't matter because everyone was now getting a new stadium next to a retail park, and, oh bliss Tesco wanted to build one for us! How did that suddenly become 'outside government guidelines' when our turn came up? Now the sports village, when the biggest money shortage for year is upon us, cheers Mr Bankers. For someone who doesn't believe in fate I do wonder if we will ever get a scheme off the ground.

To return to things which were in our control, we did stop spending on the 'gameday experience' but to be fair it was becoming stale, or in truth, that's the wrong tense, it had become stale is more accurate. At the back end of the Caisley era we cut back on junior development which I wouldn't have done, and nor, despite the belief that we were getting a new ground, would I have spent the money we got as compensation for the old lease from the council. Still, I cheered along with everyone else when we brought in Adrian Morley for the play-offs in 2005 (?) but money well spent? We would probably have won anyway, probably......

A little bit more up to date is a bit more problematical, if only because we don't know what was available to be spent (whereas previously it was being spent, even if it shouldn't have been, so must therefore have been available). Work in the community was already being done by the Bulls foundation, maybe, funds permitting they might have done a bit more in the schools, particularly with tickets for the younger kids (the ones who would have needed a parent or two to accompany them to the game would have been best ).

We could have sacked Steve McNamara, my objections to this idea have always largely been financial, that is to ask would it be a reasonable use of funds to pay someone off only to have to pay another wage to have the same job done, and since the background problems would have still been in place, there was no convincing argument to suggest things would improve. Also I feel that results show that Steve's work on the juniors has been superb, though whether he is the best man to be head coach, is a different story and results tell a different tale, but of course we can't get away from what is playing out in the background.

I believe the idea that we are falling into oblivion is way over the top. Things aren't good for sure, but they've been far worse, and if it ever comes that we have to live in much more straitened times then so be it; we've been in the lower league before. In any case there is nothing to say how good we might have been with 'average' injuries. We've had two horrendous years and surely it can't go on like that. If we were to drop it wouldn't be very palatable, absolutely not, but no-one has a divine right to be at the top and it certainly wouldn't stop me going. Let's get the new coach announced and move on, our luck has to change surely?

[ArmchairRhino]

Has the move back to Odsal been a success? Should they have stayed at Valley Parade?

[Stan Doffarf]

Has the move back to Odsal been a success? Should they have stayed at Valley Parade?

Returning to Odsal was not a decision as such, it was always the intention. The club only moved to VP to allow necessary work to be carried out on Odsal.

The stay at VP was extremely damaging to the club. Attendances fell dramatically for several reasons, most of which have been aired at length on here, and many of those lost supporters have never returned. It completely derailed the Bullmania thing because VP offers no space or facilities for the family activities which were so much a feature of it, and those families were the very people the club needed to keep interested in order to build its future fanbase.

I don't think you'd find too many supporters keen to make a permanent home at VP, and quite frankly, it's not suitable for Rugby League anyway.