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#21 no13benny

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 06:16 PM

QUOTE (The Future is League @ Jul 14 2010, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
sorry for my basic English mistakes, but i didn't have a very good education. i do my best, but i understand sometimes my best is not good enough.


Fair enough, I just thought it was worth pointing out for future reference, but what you are saying is always far more important to me than how you spell it.
Super League, Championship, the play-offs, Challenge Cup, and World Cup.
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#22 bowes

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:14 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 14 2010, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A few hundred grand I suspect ST..........

...per year

#23 bowes

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:15 PM

QUOTE (Southern Tiger @ Jul 14 2010, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have from nothing and NO teams, its turned into a south west division in less than 10 years - but thats where I am located.

Why not start a pro team then? The SW division has as many teams as the Scottish league and playes more games so should be as easy to start a pro team there than Scotland?

In reality of course starting amateur clubs is what we should be doing like you say in the SW. It would be reckless to start a Scottish or Irish Championship 1 side now it would be much harder than rocket science to make it work

Edited by bowes, 14 July 2010 - 09:17 PM.


#24 Southern Tiger

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 06:24 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 14 2010, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why not start a pro team then? The SW division has as many teams as the Scottish league and playes more games so should be as easy to start a pro team there than Scotland?

In reality of course starting amateur clubs is what we should be doing like you say in the SW. It would be reckless to start a Scottish or Irish Championship 1 side now it would be much harder than rocket science to make it work


I'm not so sure, I guess the debate is foe either a top (Ch1 in this case) down or bottom amature division up approach. Ideally, I think you need both - not sure what the Ch1 averages for crowds but I would guess that its also a realistic target for a new venture too. I also think that the RFL should prioritise Ireland and Scotland for the good of the International game as it would be an easier progression for youngsters who come through the amature game and have potential to be kept in Rugby League and are currently being lost to the rival codes broader pro reach.

Edited by Southern Tiger, 15 July 2010 - 06:26 AM.

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#25 RP London

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 09:47 AM

QUOTE (Southern Tiger @ Jul 15 2010, 06:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not so sure, I guess the debate is foe either a top (Ch1 in this case) down or bottom amature division up approach. Ideally, I think you need both - not sure what the Ch1 averages for crowds but I would guess that its also a realistic target for a new venture too. I also think that the RFL should prioritise Ireland and Scotland for the good of the International game as it would be an easier progression for youngsters who come through the amature game and have potential to be kept in Rugby League and are currently being lost to the rival codes broader pro reach.

personlly i think a champ 1 side in ireland and scotland is doable at the moment with the countries at the stages they are in..

Gates wise to be competative/comparative they wouldnt need that much but they would need ot be in the right place.. ie with Ireland GAA takes place around now so they need ot make sure they are somwhere that doesnt necessarily clash so heavily with it but with good access. easier said than done i know.. They would also need to make sure that that club supports the structure belwo it.. IMO a 6 team league below it with funding given to it by the RLI and the semi pro club, joint sponsorship/marketing etc etc all feeding in..

They are at the right stage, interest is there to build upon.. whether they are RU clubs giving RL a go or not i dont see as being that important when setting up the CC1 club becuase what they need is support, you will be able to pull the players over with the offer of pay (they may not be fantastic but look at the scorpions in an area that pas well for RU).. its the species and if RL is gaining an interest foothold even if it is RU players wanting a peak then this is a good thing (the RU vs RL thinking may well not be so strong.. as is the case in many of hte areas RL is targetting in London.. the kids dont care about the antagonism of yesteryear they just want to play a game or watch a game they enjoy be that RL or RU or even both).

What it really needs though is someone to fund it, fund the staff needed, fund the plaers wages, fund the rent of the stadium and training facilities whilst the sponsorship is put in place and while waiting for hte season to start and gate moeny to come in.. Sponsors dont grow on trees at the moment and so that funding may have to coninue for a while..

to me that is the key.. it may not be overly expensive to set up a CC1 club but is there anyone hanging about that has the mony to invest to get it off the ground.. at the moment my guess is no so are the RFL able to step into the breach.. again my guess at the moment is no.. but that doesnt mean it wouldnt be a good idea.

#26 bowes

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE (Southern Tiger @ Jul 15 2010, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not so sure, I guess the debate is foe either a top (Ch1 in this case) down or bottom amature division up approach. Ideally, I think you need both - not sure what the Ch1 averages for crowds but I would guess that its also a realistic target for a new venture too. I also think that the RFL should prioritise Ireland and Scotland for the good of the International game as it would be an easier progression for youngsters who come through the amature game and have potential to be kept in Rugby League and are currently being lost to the rival codes broader pro reach.

The average crowds at C1 I'm not sure would guess in the 600-800 range but Blackpool, Gateshead and Skolars get about 200-300 so you're looking at that at most.

I can see the case for Scotland if the RFL had money because there are youngsters there, but there is not a single youngster playing RL in Ireland and thus there's no need for a path for them to aim for, there is also no drive to set youngsters up as RL in Ireland is just RU players playing 4-6 games to keep fit (this is NOT the same as say someone playing RL for South London Storm and RU for Streatham-Croydon and being a RL player and a RU player and taking both seriously)

#27 ShotgunGold

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 12:30 PM

Can we not just stick with Wales and London for now, before throwing money (that we really don't have) into Scotland and Ireland.

I would much rather see a third and fourth Championship team in Wales before we move onto Scotland and Ireland.

#28 RP London

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 12:40 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 15 2010, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The average crowds at C1 I'm not sure would guess in the 600-800 range but Blackpool, Gateshead and Skolars get about 200-300 so you're looking at that at most.

I can see the case for Scotland if the RFL had money because there are youngsters there, but there is not a single youngster playing RL in Ireland and thus there's no need for a path for them to aim for, there is also no drive to set youngsters up as RL in Ireland is just RU players playing 4-6 games to keep fit (this is NOT the same as say someone playing RL for South London Storm and RU for Streatham-Croydon and being a RL player and a RU player and taking both seriously)


not being deliberatly argumentative (i';ll leave that to another thread) but the reverse can be said to be true for your last paragraph in that there are no juniors because without this pathway why bother.. without it the interest of the schools/clubs may not be there to get the kids organised, but with a club that is semi pro comes more helpers perhaps to organise all this.. serious consideration is taken to extend the season and make RL a proper recognised sport in the consciousness of the area rather than being "abit of fun"

one of your bug bears (not mean in a bad way) on the conference forum is that the welsh conference isnt longer or more serious and htey have a super league AND champ 1 side and they cannot get that going properly (for reason i totally understand and talked through at length with a couple of people there to try to understand why things were happning the way they were.)

i'm not saying that ireland need it and it would work but just becuase they dont have all this doesnt mean it wont work.. there is some serious and good work being done over there and maybe a champ 1 side would help..

I nearly moved to belfast not so long ago and if i had i would have probably joined a union club (as i wouldhave had the choice) as soon as the league clubs started i would have joined (and maybe helped get them going) but would that make me a union player playing a bit of league or finally playing the game i love again.. how many would play league continually instead of union if offered the chance.. a bit of chicken and egg as per usual but i dont believe it is as clear cut as we all make it on both sides..

Personally i think the RFL would give it ago if they had someone prepared to put the money up but they wont do it themselves which is ashame but present circumstances as shotgun says it is probably the right decision.

#29 bowes

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 03:31 PM

Tough call, but yes unless someone rich comes along prepared to back it there are better uses of money than Ireland as it stands.

Scotland has junior setups as does the midlands so they would be much better candidates than Ireland for a side if money is there (which it isn't). Wales had some juniors before Crusaders like Scotland and midlands have. Giving it to try to get juniors started where there's been no interest so far (outside of one club as I say) is ultimately rewarding failure and RLI have to put more effort into serious RL development before it becomes worth spending hundreds of thousands of pounds better spent elsewhere.

Welsh Conference good point, the split between Premier and Regional has been a step in the right direction with the Premier going up to 10 games, still not enough but I'd hope they look to expand the season when more teams step up (or before with 3rd fixtures).

On the Northern Ireland Conference there's only 4 games plus playoffs, so if you were playing 25-30 RU games and about 5 RL games it's a pretty clear bias. Different to say playing 30 RU games and 16 RL games, though 30 RL games is much better

#30 RP London

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 03:36 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 15 2010, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Tough call, but yes unless someone rich comes along prepared to back it there are better uses of money than Ireland as it stands.

Scotland has junior setups as does the midlands so they would be much better candidates than Ireland for a side if money is there (which it isn't). Wales had some juniors before Crusaders like Scotland and midlands have. Giving it to try to get juniors started where there's been no interest so far (outside of one club as I say) is ultimately rewarding failure and RLI have to put more effort into serious RL development before it becomes worth spending hundreds of thousands of pounds better spent elsewhere.

Welsh Conference good point, the split between Premier and Regional has been a step in the right direction with the Premier going up to 10 games, still not enough but I'd hope they look to expand the season when more teams step up (or before with 3rd fixtures).

On the Northern Ireland Conference there's only 4 games plus playoffs, so if you were playing 25-30 RU games and about 5 RL games it's a pretty clear bias. Different to say playing 30 RU games and 16 RL games, though 30 RL games is much better


dont disagree with that.. but what would say is that they play what they are given at the moment.. if they were to offer more would they play more? do they need more teams to play more or play each other more (somtehing quite alien when you have good numbers of union clubs)..

one issue is the GAA running in the summer so you have the summer contact sports..

If league was offered more widespread and had more of a figure at the top that is pro (unlike GAA) would you start to entice more players over to give it a go, more kids etc..

i would say the issue with ireland is comparing it to mainland Britain is very difficult becuase unlike Britain it has the summer contact sport to distract.. so do we need a different way of doing it?? i really dont know.. the one thing i do believe is you cannot simply throw money around at the moment.

#31 bowes

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 03:50 PM

Maybe the best way forward for Ireland would be to have a summer league mainly aimed at off season RU players and a winter league mainly aimed at off season GAA players and then players/clubs who want to commit to RL can play both?

#32 RP London

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 03:54 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 15 2010, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe the best way forward for Ireland would be to have a summer league mainly aimed at off season RU players and a winter league mainly aimed at off season GAA players and then players/clubs who want to commit to RL can play both?

pitch usage?
RU plyers who play GAA?

dont kow if they are issues or if they are solveable if they are but they are possible issues.. otherwise these things could certainly be options.. but ireland going over to winter while britian are talking about moving all amateurs to summer.. would seem a bit backward (there is a very easy joke there but iwll leave it)

but yep a possibolity i am sure.

#33 bowes

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 03:59 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 15 2010, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
pitch usage?
RU plyers who play GAA?

dont kow if they are issues or if they are solveable if they are but they are possible issues.. otherwise these things could certainly be options.. but ireland going over to winter while britian are talking about moving all amateurs to summer.. would seem a bit backward (there is a very easy joke there but iwll leave it)

but yep a possibolity i am sure.

Got to be better than just 4-6 game seasons forever, to me that is more backward than playing winter.

To me sorting Scotland out is higher priority as they have juniors going to grow up into the current short setup

#34 RP London

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:06 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 15 2010, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Got to be better than just 4-6 game seasons forever, to me that is more backward than playing winter.

To me sorting Scotland out is higher priority as they have juniors going to grow up into the current short setup

not sure i think ireland has more potential for pro sport than scotlad but who knows really..

to be fair i dont think its anyones pla to have 4-6b games forever no matter what they do.. its not a choice of "winter or 4-6 in the summer" its more a case of how to buiold the games in the best way.. i dont know if winter is that thugh

#35 bowes

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 05:18 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 15 2010, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
not sure i think ireland has more potential for pro sport than scotlad but who knows really..

to be fair i dont think its anyones pla to have 4-6b games forever no matter what they do.. its not a choice of "winter or 4-6 in the summer" its more a case of how to buiold the games in the best way.. i dont know if winter is that thugh

Not sure when GAA finishes but there's very little crossover with RU (both overlapping seasons and the historical ban on garrison sports) but playing at GAA grounds may be the biggest obstacle.

Because most of Ireland is a separate country to the UK it makes no sense to force the same season as in the UK (in the same way forcing France to play summer and watch it collapse due to the ridiculous heat would be a terrible idea) and if 2 comps allows players to commit to RL then so be it.

I don't believe it's anyone's plan in the RLI to expand the season, the reports I have from Ireland are that it's a case of get more RL teams on the map at any cost at the expense of any substance. I'd take 6 clubs playing 25 games and running juniors over 25 clubs playing 6 games anyday

#36 Janner

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 12:00 PM

I believe you will find that the history of Rugby League in the South West is slightly different to what has been posted here....

On the chances of Scotland and Ireland joining Championship One. There was talk on the messageboards of a Championship One side to be based in either Cornwall or Exeter about eighteen months ago but nothing ever came of it. As with much of what is discussed on here, the ideas are nice in theory but lack any substance when you think a bit more deeply about them.

#37 bowes

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 12:32 PM

QUOTE (Janner @ Jul 16 2010, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I believe you will find that the history of Rugby League in the South West is slightly different to what has been posted here....

On the chances of Scotland and Ireland joining Championship One. There was talk on the messageboards of a Championship One side to be based in either Cornwall or Exeter about eighteen months ago but nothing ever came of it. As with much of what is discussed on here, the ideas are nice in theory but lack any substance when you think a bit more deeply about them.

Yeah around 1990 there were 5 Gloucestershire sides in the MASWARLA going head to head with RU plus Bath and on and off Plymouth (sometimes running their own mini league sometimes in the main league but the travel was bad), most of these had been in since the league was founded in the mid 80s.

By about 1995 the MASWARLA had folded and the remnants split between the EMARLA and London ARL division 2 (South West) but don't think any from further west than Basingstoke. Cheltenham Warriors (now Gloucestershire) joined the RLC in 1998 and Bristol and Somerset joined in 2003, Plymouth in 2005 and they got a few teams playing friendlies in 2006 as preparation for the full division in 2007 which has grown since.

Of course the big story was the early days with the attempted pro league about 100 years ago that never quite worked. Though the full details are on the Plymouth site

#38 bowes

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 10:28 AM

Another problem with getting sides in these places is that due to a change in the law (players receiving any pay needing a hard to get sports visa not the easier to get working holiday visa) it's nigh on impossible to bring Australians into the country to play semi-pro so you'd find it very hard to get the starting playing standards. This is roughly what Crusaders got busted for and why Skolars aren't the side there were and part of the reason Gateshead aren't (the other being money). These sides and Scorpions are now local based which is good for the future, though Skolars and Gateshead are currently at too high a level for their playing ability and the same problem would occur for a Scottish side (I very much doubt an Irish side would get off the ground).




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