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#81 BringBacktheBiff

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE (Hornetto @ Jul 24 2010, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wests Tigers is a JV, not a merger. There's a big difference. And there were rumblings a couple of months ago that Balmain wanted out. And we all know what happened at Northern Eagles.

Illawarra St George Dragons is a top-down, straight-through, bottom-up merger - but you don't see many Steelers shirts there these days...

I see, could Joint Ventures not work over here with the likes of say Doncaster and Sheffield playing in the Championship as feeder teams to a South Yorkshire Franchise?

#82 Hornetto

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 09:09 PM

QUOTE (BringBacktheBiff @ Jul 24 2010, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I see, could Joint Ventures not work over here with the likes of say Doncaster and Sheffield playing in the Championship as feeder teams to a South Yorkshire Franchise?


If the clubs and the fans wanted it, anything's viable. In the NSW Cup, there are hard-core, old-school Balmain and Magpies fans who watch JUST the NSW Cup side. And good on them for that.

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#83 Trojan

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 09:10 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 24 2010, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
. Exciting times ahead.

2. "Unfair" means nothing, life and business is unfair, the NRL and the USA football leagues aren't doomed at all so stick to that nonsense if you like. As for Wakeys crowds history shows this city club has many more times the potential for big crowds than Fev. Not having a go but Fev have always struggled for crowds even when at the top.



But it does in sport. That's the whole point of "sport" the phrase "sporting chance" means fairness.
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#84 Hornetto

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE (Sleeper @ Jul 23 2010, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
!

I will wager now that a large slice of "supporters" in Leigh, Oldham, Rochdale, Hunslet etc would declare Jihad at the very mention of a merger ................................... yet have not attended one game in two seasons!



Yes I would - and I've watched us home and away for as long as I can remember. I wouldn't go to Neath to watch a merged entity. But, then again, I wouldn't go to Spotland to watch a merged entity either.

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#85 Sleeper

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Hornetto @ Jul 24 2010, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes I would - and I've watched us home and away for as long as I can remember. I wouldn't go to Neath to watch a merged entity. But, then again, I wouldn't go to Spotland to watch a merged entity either.


You only support my argument! Take what joy you can from the Hornets and er, the acceptance of mediocrity and no, its not meant as a dig.

Edited by Sleeper, 24 July 2010 - 10:31 PM.

Until something better comes along, this life will have to do

#86 Sleeper

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 10:39 PM

QUOTE (Dirk Diggler @ Jul 24 2010, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You sort of assume that there is place to be has at the top table for want of a merger.
An entity formed of Oldham, Rochdale and Swinton would be competitive in the co-op championship and that is it. There is a place in SL for a Manchester franchise and Salford have it, so merge away.
The urge for Cas, Wakey and Fev to merge only exists to create an opening in SL. If it happened they would inherit one franchise for now but in the long term that entity would end up where Fev is now and where Cas & Wakey are headed.
Fans think a merger in Cumbria would get a franchise but I personally doubt it.
Merging like voting changes nothing.


I assume nowt!

Oldham, Swinton and Rochdale will not dominate the Championship or Championship 1 as a standalone entity this side of 2015 (probably), Oldham might! As a merged outfit they might and in accord with franchise demands might, just might gain SL status and to be fair ........... the Oldham, Swinton, Hornets thingy was very much by way of example not a recommendation!

Until something better comes along, this life will have to do

#87 The Parksider

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE (Jill Halfpenny fan @ Jul 24 2010, 09:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd have thought the bulk of these increases would have already occurred before franchising.


You'd better read your history of RL, you will find such as Paris and Gateshead being parachuted straight into SL taking an NL clubs place quite a number of years ago, you will find that the top clubs were given millions whilst the NL clubs weren't many years ago, the whole process of privelige for the few started in 1996........

I thought someone would come along and try to unpick the simple fact that Superleague has polarised the game, but has attracted a nett increase in fans.

Isn't it time to get off for the golf anyway??




#88 Red Willow

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 11:38 AM

Mergers are rarely that, they are a takeove by a stronger club.

RL in England have seem the mergers of Gateshead and Sheffield into new merged clubs. the stronger partner have benefited but the weaker haven't.

Had Oldham and Salford merged there are no guarantees that either club would have survived, much would have depended who ran the company.

#89 Hornetto

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 05:43 PM

QUOTE (Sleeper @ Jul 24 2010, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You only support my argument! Take what joy you can from the Hornets and er, the acceptance of mediocrity and no, its not meant as a dig.


You talk in terms of 'mediocrity', but in any hierarchial system, you need some elements at the top, some in the middle and some at the bottom. However you cook it, not every element involved can be at the top.

Ipso Facto RL, teams find the level at which they can best function at any given time. If we were to be promoted via the playoffs this term, you could patronise some other clubs.

It's always easy for supporters of larger clubs - or those detached from the week to week reality of life in the Championships - to moot mergers, but RL doesn't equal SL and I enjoy the competition of CC1 and the community element of what my club does.

If we existed like this at this level for the next 50 years whilst other clubs gambled on SL success and failed, I'd be happy. And right.

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Match reports, previews and other stuff that comes into our heads at
http://theseladscanr...ns.blogspot.com


#90 Keith T

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE (Red Willow @ Jul 25 2010, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mergers are rarely that, they are a takeove by a stronger club.

RL in England have seem the mergers of Gateshead and Sheffield into new merged clubs. the stronger partner have benefited but the weaker haven't.

Had Oldham and Salford merged there are no guarantees that either club would have survived, much would have depended who ran the company.


Why do people always talk about mergers? Workington and Whitehaven are two mediocre teams, both financially stretched with no significant stronger team but both carry too much baggage to merge in to one unit. However, a fresh new club formed, serving both towns (6 miles apart), would certainly have a very good chance of success. It would certainly have more chance of success than the two current clubs.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#91 nec

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 07:45 AM

QUOTE (Keith T @ Jul 25 2010, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do people always talk about mergers? Workington and Whitehaven are two mediocre teams, both financially stretched with no significant stronger team but both carry too much baggage to merge in to one unit. However, a fresh new club formed, serving both towns (6 miles apart), would certainly have a very good chance of success. It would certainly have more chance of success than the two current clubs.

So, a joint venture?
Rugby League is a sport that desperately needs to expand its geographical supporter base and its player base. This imperative means that all other requirements are secondary until this is done.

All power in the game should be with governing bodies, especially international governing bodies.

Without these actions we will remain a minor sport internationally and nationally.

#92 Sleeper

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE (Hornetto @ Jul 25 2010, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You talk in terms of 'mediocrity', but in any hierarchial system, you need some elements at the top, some in the middle and some at the bottom. However you cook it, not every element involved can be at the top.

Ipso Facto RL, teams find the level at which they can best function at any given time. If we were to be promoted via the playoffs this term, you could patronise some other clubs.

It's always easy for supporters of larger clubs - or those detached from the week to week reality of life in the Championships - to moot mergers, but RL doesn't equal SL and I enjoy the competition of CC1 and the community element of what my club does.

If we existed like this at this level for the next 50 years whilst other clubs gambled on SL success and failed, I'd be happy. And right.


Separate the sport and "community element" from business and yeah, I'd be in full agreement but by doing that you accept by aiming for the tree tops you acknowledge you might not even get off the ground, aim for the sky and you might reach the tree tops! First and foremost RL is a business, the community element bit comes a close second.

I suppose its all down to a preference, me as a supporter of a lower tier RL club I'd swop it all for a successful North Manchester Titans .................. or something else.
Until something better comes along, this life will have to do

#93 Hornetto

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 08:01 PM

QUOTE (Sleeper @ Jul 26 2010, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Separate the sport and "community element" from business and yeah, I'd be in full agreement but by doing that you accept by aiming for the tree tops you acknowledge you might not even get off the ground, aim for the sky and you might reach the tree tops! First and foremost RL is a business, the community element bit comes a close second.

I suppose its all down to a preference, me as a supporter of a lower tier RL club I'd swop it all for a successful North Manchester Titans .................. or something else.


Not if you're a not for profit Industrial and Provident society it doesn't. Sustainability, financially viable competitiveness and a community focus take equal precedent.

But then again, we could be a 'aim for the sky' basket case like Blackpool - and we all know where that's heading.

If my club ever merged in any shape, the great likelihood would be that the conference would have a new Rochdale community club within two years. Probably playing at merit level to start with, and I'd be there week in week out and not watching some manufactured merged entity that means nothing to me.

You really do have to stop measuring success by proximity to SL.

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These Lads Can Run for 80 Minutes - the infamous Hornets fanzine is back from the dead: and just as biased as ever!
Match reports, previews and other stuff that comes into our heads at
http://theseladscanr...ns.blogspot.com


#94 RP London

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 07:28 AM

QUOTE (Hornetto @ Jul 26 2010, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not if you're a not for profit Industrial and Provident society it doesn't. Sustainability, financially viable competitiveness and a community focus take equal precedent.

But then again, we could be a 'aim for the sky' basket case like Blackpool - and we all know where that's heading.

If my club ever merged in any shape, the great likelihood would be that the conference would have a new Rochdale community club within two years. Probably playing at merit level to start with, and I'd be there week in week out and not watching some manufactured merged entity that means nothing to me.

You really do have to stop measuring success by proximity to SL.


but surely the thing is that that is aboslutely fine.. and you may find that Rochdale attracts those p*ssed off fans that a"North Manchester Titans" creates.. however, three will be a good number that feel the same way as Sleeper and would go and watch the NMTs and beyond those already interested in teams a more general North Manchester Titans side may well attract a brand new bread and set of speccies from areas that before hand would not have been interested due to the parochialism of some of the teams and names even.

For all those that are Rochdale through and through how many people int he surrounding area wouold not go and watch Rochdale unless it were on fire? how many dont go to watch their "local" team becuase to them it is not local to them?

This can then be encompassed in these merged entities.

For example: When Sheffield "merged" with Huddersfield and the Sheffield fans pulled away from the game how many went to Doncaster? if it happened again and Sheffield were no more how many would go to Doncaster? how many from DOncaster would go to sheffield? not many i would hazard a guess.. yet a merged entity between the two that didnt have Doncaster or Sheffield in the name necessarily would attract a large number of these speccies for super league, not only that but it would stand a chance of bringng in fans from all over the area, those in Rotherham who may not want to go and watch a "sheffield" side etc..

I dont really know which is right the above is just another way to look at it IMO..

in the same way as you should not measure everything by the SL you should not go ahead with things due to a minority, very vocal that it can be it may well be the minority of that larger area your trying to hit and enourage through the door.

Edited by RP London, 27 July 2010 - 07:30 AM.


#95 Trojan

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 08:17 AM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 27 2010, 08:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For example: When Sheffield "merged" with Huddersfield and the Sheffield fans pulled away from the game how many went to Doncaster? if it happened again and Sheffield were no more how many would go to Doncaster? how many from DOncaster would go to sheffield? not many i would hazard a guess.. yet a merged entity between the two that didnt have Doncaster or Sheffield in the name necessarily would attract a large number of these speccies for super league, not only that but it would stand a chance of bringng in fans from all over the area, those in Rotherham who may not want to go and watch a "sheffield" side etc..


As I've pointed out before, it's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. I count myself a Fev fan, but I don't go as often as I ought. If they're playing at a time that's not convenient for me I give it a miss. They're having their most successful season since 1983, but so what? They'll probably finish top of the Championship, but unless they win the playoffs it won't count for anything. And even if they do win it - there's no guarantee they'll get any reward. I'll probably make more effort with the playoff games. But my heart's not in like it used to be. If Fev ceased to exist I wouldn't go to Wakey, or Cas, or the Bulls, or Leeds. I might watch Shaw Cross on a Saturday afternoon and attend GF and the occasional test match. But TBH the ending of P&R has spoiled it a bit for me. As I posted somewhere else, the edge has gone.
"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#96 RP London

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 08:24 AM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jul 27 2010, 09:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As I've pointed out before, it's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. I count myself a Fev fan, but I don't go as often as I ought. If they're playing at a time that's not convenient for me I give it a miss. They're having their most successful season since 1983, but so what? They'll probably finish top of the Championship, but unless they win the playoffs it won't count for anything. And even if they do win it - there's no guarantee they'll get any reward. I'll probably make more effort with the playoff games. But my heart's not in like it used to be. If Fev ceased to exist I wouldn't go to Wakey, or Cas, or the Bulls, or Leeds. I might watch Shaw Cross on a Saturday afternoon and attend GF and the occasional test match. But TBH the ending of P&R has spoiled it a bit for me. As I posted somewhere else, the edge has gone.

i dont know what that has to do with the bit of my post you quoted to be honest.. especialy when put in with the rest of the post which said:
QUOTE
but surely the thing is that that is aboslutely fine.. and you may find that Rochdale attracts those p*ssed off fans that a"North Manchester Titans" creates.. however, three will be a good number that feel the same way as Sleeper and would go and watch the NMTs and beyond those already interested in teams a more general North Manchester Titans side may well attract a brand new bread and set of speccies from areas that before hand would not have been interested due to the parochialism of some of the teams and names even.

For all those that are Rochdale through and through how many people int he surrounding area wouold not go and watch Rochdale unless it were on fire? how many dont go to watch their "local" team becuase to them it is not local to them?


so you may be one of those lost.. but how many will be attracted.. if the attracted does not outweigh the lost then fair enough THAT merger is not a goer.. it doesnt mean all arent and if the attracted does outweigh the lost then maybe its worth doing.


#97 Trojan

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 09:19 AM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 27 2010, 09:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
so you may be one of those lost.. but how many will be attracted.. if the attracted does not outweigh the lost then fair enough THAT merger is not a goer.. it doesnt mean all arent and if the attracted does outweigh the lost then maybe its worth doing.


It's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. You have to buy food, if Morrisons closes then you have to go to Asda. If Featherstone Rovers closes I can stop at home. Same goes for Sheffield fans too. Or find some other leisure activity. I'm not alone in feeling like this. Look at the posts on the Championship sites if you don't believe me.
"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#98 RP London

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 09:38 AM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jul 27 2010, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. You have to buy food, if Morrisons closes then you have to go to Asda. If Featherstone Rovers closes I can stop at home. Same goes for Sheffield fans too. Or find some other leisure activity.

and AS I SAY that is fine.. (i dont understand the relevance of "its a leisure activity").. but how many will be attracted to these new clubs compared to those that are lost.. as long as the numbers new outwiegh the numbers lost then go for it.. if not then dont...

what it is/isnt is irrelevant... wha you go and do afterwards is irrelevant.. the key is.. how many people in the area will stop watching a merged club vs how many people in the area will go to watch a merged club.. if the latter is bigger then it should be a merged club..

QUOTE
I'm not alone in feeling like this. Look at the posts on the Championship sites if you don't believe me.

again as i have said (i really dont think you read any of my posts)
QUOTE
in the same way as you should not measure everything by the SL you should not go ahead with things due to a minority, very vocal that it can be it may well be the minority of that larger area your trying to hit and enourage through the door.

as i say it can be a vocal minority but it can still be a minority...

the point is as i have said that mergers per se are not necessarily a bad thing.

#99 Trojan

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 27 2010, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
and AS I SAY that is fine.. (i dont understand the relevance of "its a leisure activity").. but how many will be attracted to these new clubs compared to those that are lost..


And the answer is they won't be. At least not in enough numbers to make the clubs viable. Because fans develop a loyalty over the years. To the club, to your mates who you watch with. Break that link and - there's no reason to go any more. Because you don't have to.
"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#100 nec

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jul 27 2010, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And the answer is they won't be. At least not in enough numbers to make the clubs viable. Because fans develop a loyalty over the years. To the club, to your mates who you watch with. Break that link and - there's no reason to go any more. Because you don't have to.

That was said in Inverness prior to the merger there, the mergedclub gets gates many times larger than the combined crowds of the old clubs
Rugby League is a sport that desperately needs to expand its geographical supporter base and its player base. This imperative means that all other requirements are secondary until this is done.

All power in the game should be with governing bodies, especially international governing bodies.

Without these actions we will remain a minor sport internationally and nationally.




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