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#121 RP London

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 08:07 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Jul 28 2010, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why should clubs merge becuase they are going through a bad patch AND it is co-inciding with this awful licensing krap.

Imagine if the year were 1980 - Wigan would not have been allowed back in the top division because they failed to win the second tier comp, and also there were a range of newbie teams who would have been given preference

Would they have been forced to merge with Saints (who were also not breaking any pots at that time)

Our game is a complete joke at time. Too many idiots on here who would like to see just 12 pro teams and the rest to go away


who is saying anyone should be forced to?

if clubs think that they can make it on their own then that is fine.. as wigan did.. even with P&R there are a huge swathe of the clubs who will not be able to get there or grow to the level they need to to be a sustained championship challenger..

the discussion is more about whetyher they area good idea to get 1 strong team rather than 3 weak teams, or 2 weak teams.. whether they would attract more by having a wider spread of potential support etc

no one has said you force clubs to merge it is just an option, whih sometimes may be the best option IF the clubs or areas want to have the strong presence and which will sometimes open a lot more avenues up to the teams and larger catchment areas..

re the bit in bold.. there are as many idiots who would have RL retract back to the M62 and the rest can go hang and let the sport die on its ######.. there are very few who want either.. most are looking atthe best way forward in their opinion and the best way to grow the game to the best of its ability..

#122 Trojan

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 08:33 AM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 29 2010, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Having been around RL for many years the game has always had low crowds below the top level. Many clubs remain break even on crowds in the hundreds. Paying players too much is the bigger problem than crowds. Clubs need to adjust their finances to their incomes, and play their rugby at a level they can afford.

In time most NL clubs will be past the SL dream not because they are shut out, but because they can't afford it something the dreaming SL wannabees keep ignoring. When the realisation comes, perhaps led by Karl Harrison and Batley a new NL will emerge on sensible financing and home grown local players.

You would be able to compete then and there would be something for the fans surely Keith??


Compete for what Parky? You sound like Marie Antoinette - "let them eat cake" We all know what happened to her tongue.gif
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#123 West Country Eagle

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 08:47 AM

QUOTE (BBR @ Jul 21 2010, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Where are Huddersfield in your plan?


They've already had their merger and remained in Super League.

How convenient.

Is there anyone else they can merge with/takeover if Uncle Ken snuffs it and his money goes elsewhere?
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#124 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:36 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 29 2010, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Having been around RL for many years the game has always had low crowds below the top level. Many clubs remain break even on crowds in the hundreds. Paying players too much is the bigger problem than crowds. Clubs need to adjust their finances to their incomes, and play their rugby at a level they can afford.

In time most NL clubs will be past the SL dream not because they are shut out, but because they can't afford it something the dreaming SL wannabees keep ignoring. When the realisation comes, perhaps led by Karl Harrison and Batley a new NL will emerge on sensible financing and home grown local players.

You would be able to compete then and there would be something for the fans surely Keith??


I don't think having a second tier based on the Batley model is a desirable thing for RL. We'd be left with a second tier watched by a handful of care-in-the community style fans, with most other normal people drifting away to other sports/pastimes.

If the Batley model is so great, why are the worst supported clubs in NL1 those which have no desire to go up?

This is what we'll end up with, as I'm sure there are stil a fair few fans at Fev, Leigh, Widnes etc who are watching with the goal of competing with the best



#125 RP London

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:44 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Jul 29 2010, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think having a second tier based on the Batley model is a desirable thing for RL. We'd be left with a second tier watched by a handful of care-in-the community style fans, with most other normal people drifting away to other sports/pastimes.

If the Batley model is so great, why are the worst supported clubs in NL1 those which have no desire to go up?

This is what we'll end up with, as I'm sure there are stil a fair few fans at Fev, Leigh, Widnes etc who are watching with the goal of competing with the best

WTF is wrong with you lobby... care-in-the-community style fans.. what the hell are you on about??

Batley have brought through an English only mentality whih will help with players and coaches developing, they are wanting to win things for the sake of winning things not for what that might lead to (the way amateurs do) and if they play well they personally will move up the tree arguably faster than a club would/could..

what exactly is wrong with this?

how well supported relatively have Batley been in the past btw?

#126 Trojan

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:55 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 29 2010, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
what exactly is wrong with this?



It doesn't give the likes of Batley, but more especially Halifax, Widnes, Leigh, Barrow and Featherstone a chance to match perhaps beat and even replace the likes of Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Warrington etc. Batley were the first team to win the Challenge Cup - they beat Saint Helens. Sport is about change. Clubs and their supporters need aspirations. Franchising takes those aspirations away, and not only that depresses their crowd figures. If it's so wonderful why don't London (whatever they're called today) try it?

Edited by Trojan, 29 July 2010 - 01:00 PM.

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#127 RP London

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:34 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jul 29 2010, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It doesn't give the likes of Batley, but more especially Halifax, Widnes, Leigh, Barrow and Featherstone a chance to match perhaps beat and even replace the likes of Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Warrington etc. Batley were the first team to win the Challenge Cup - they beat Saint Helens. Sport is about change. Clubs and their supporters need aspirations. Franchising takes those aspirations away, and not only that depresses their crowd figures. If it's so wonderful why don't London (whatever they're called today) try it?

yes sport is about change.. franchising is a part of that..

London fielded 1 overseas player (maybe 2 cant remember) against huddersifled (there is a thread on this).. they have an english head coach, an english assistant coach, they have a largley english squad.. so they are trying it.. some of their players will be moving on if rumours areto be beleived and will be advancing themselves quicker than the club will.. this is exaclty as i descibed.. so waht was the point about London you were making?

it is about a change of mentality.. one that batley have, which is that it is not all about winning the championship = promotion but that winning the championship is being crowned champs. They arent planning on super league now BUT a few more championships, bigger crowd, more money etc and they may well do. Same with the others you mention.. its about winning for the sake of winning and then looking at where that leads you to, it does mean you can meet and better the others becuase the only change is thatthey get shot of the foreign players (my own team are terrible at it [eagles] and i find it amazingly frustrating) and the mentality of fans and to a certain extent boards change to trying to win becuase winning is good.. rather thn trying to win becuase THAT is how you get promoted.. the rest for halifax, widnes etc still develops everything else they do develops they just do it without the foreigners.. the crowds may grow if they think "this is the championship" not "well we might win but what do we get for it".. frankly a trophy and the accolade of being the best in your division.. in the past it was a chance to see but normally get tw@ed by the super league boys.. fantastic!

If Eagles win the champ this year (i know they wont but you can dream) then that in itslef would be a fantastic result.. what would it lead to? nothing absolutely nothing, except we would have won the championship and i would be more than happy..
in reality of course winning attracts people to the club, it attracts players from other clubs, it gets you column inches it gets kids to stand up and recognise the sport it gets you to build the club. by building the club you start to get towards super league and what it needs for you to join.

Edited by RP London, 29 July 2010 - 01:37 PM.


#128 The Parksider

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Jul 29 2010, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think having a second tier based on the Batley model is a desirable thing for RL. We'd be left with a second tier watched by a handful of care-in-the community style fans, with most other normal people drifting away to other sports/pastimes.

If the Batley model is so great, why are the worst supported clubs in NL1 those which have no desire to go up?

This is what we'll end up with, as I'm sure there are still a fair few fans at Fev, Leigh, Widnes etc who are watching with the goal of competing with the best


You wouldn't think that would you though, self interest and all that (and nowt wrong with that!)

It won't be too long before Widnes are out of your list and Fev, Leigh, Barrow and Halifax are on it.

Any of those could grace Superleague if they had a decent ground and a few million to spare.

But clubs are where they are because there's not a lot of money in the game.

Dreamers often ignore realities by definition, so Trojan won't say where Fev will get a few million to compete in SL for 3 years, You won't say where Leigh will find a few million and Mick wouldn't say with any reality how Barrow would find a few million.

Once NL clubs feel shut out enough of course a "fair few fans" may drift off. Once NL becomes a better organised competition in it's own right rather than a holding division for SL wannabees that can't afford to be in SL "a fair few new fans" may come along to support it.








#129 The Parksider

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 29 2010, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
it is about a change of mentality.. one that batley have, which is that it is not all about winning the championship = promotion but that winning the championship is being crowned champs. They arent planning on super league now BUT a few more championships, bigger crowd, more money etc and they may well do.

If Eagles win the champ this year (i know they wont but you can dream) then that in itslef would be a fantastic result.. what would it lead to? nothing absolutely nothing, except we would have won the championship and i would be more than happy..

in reality of course winning attracts people to the club, it attracts players from other clubs, it gets you column inches it gets kids to stand up and recognise the sport it gets you to build the club. by building the club you start to get towards super league and what it needs for you to join.


Here here you tell the London basher biggrin.gif

I have always thought it would be a good idea to allow clubs who seriously want to be in SL the chance to have a go, I have sympathy with the "snapshot in time" argument when SL chose their members all those years ago.

Trouble is leigh did have a go, yet Lobby still thinks they are candidates. Halifax had a go and it ended disasterously with a sub 3000 average crowd and the lowest ever spend on players in SL. Today people are again reasoning that Halifax would go well in SL rolleyes.gif .

Mr. Johnson hasn't to my knowledge stated any SL ambition, although I have half a recall that they applied and withdrew???, but I think Fev applied and were turned down so maybe they should go in and get a chance at least, if only to shut Tro up ( wink.gif ) But where oh where would they find the money or fans to compete???

It may be a long time yet before the cloud of misery over NL dissapears and a more positive air blows in, but after Widnes leave there will only be relatively small clubs left in the NL and a few larger clubs who tried SL once and it didn't agree with them.....

Maybe then we can see NL go forward and be the great competition it can be...........



#130 Trojan

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Jul 29 2010, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
so waht was the point about London you were making?

i

If Widnes, Barrow, Leigh, Fev, Barrow should be happy to play in the Championship, why aren't London?
I know you'll have an answer.
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#131 Trojan

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 29 2010, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe then we can see NL go forward and be the great competition it can be...........



In the long run no doubt they'll come to terms with playing in the Championship with no reward for winning it and crowds that dwindle year on year. Perhaps it'll be when they go out of existence. Perhaps if franchising had been indtroduced in 1977 when Fev were Champs we could be in favour of it? Or when Leigh were champs, in 1981. Or perhaps Wigan would have been happy to be stuck in the second tier in 1980/81.
The advocates of franchising are those like you Parky who support a side that's never likely to be threatened by relegation so don't really give a f*ck what happens to the teams below them(apart from availing them of the opportunity for a good sneer). And those who support the likes of London and Crusaders.

Edited by Trojan, 29 July 2010 - 03:01 PM.

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