27 replies to this topic

[ParisSurtout]

In recent years the Super League has had two or three, maximum four clubs, competing consistently for the top spots. In the early part of this decade it was St Helens and Bradford. Then Leeds became a contender, and Wigan was for a time just outside the top two. Then it became all Leeds and St Helens.

This year it is Wigan top, with Warrington and St Helens the nearest challengers, followed by Leeds, Hull FC and on its good days Huddersfield.

So we only have six clubs out of 14 who could win the competition (a minority), but realistically it is only four: Wigan, Warrington, St Helens and Leeds. And they are alll M62 clubs. The non-M62 clubs Crusaders, Harlequins and Catalans have no chance. So there is no geographical diversity among the competitive clubs.

Compare that with the NRL: in that competition there are 12 competitive clubs: Melbourne, St George-Illawarra, Penrith, Wests Tigers, Sydney Roosters, NZ Warriors, Manly, Brisbane, Gold Coast, South Sydney, Parramatta and Canberra. This is a strong majority of the 16. It is also somewhat geographically diverse with 7 of the 12 from Sydney metropolitan area, two from Queensland, one from NZ, one from the national capital, and one from Melbourne.

So in the NRL there is mcuch less certainty about who will win the NRL Grand Final, or even who will make the play offs. In part the NRL diversity reflects the greater diversity of the NRL competiiton where 9 of the 16 clubs are from Sydney -- a ratio which will likely fall in 2013 to 9 out of 18 with the addition of Perth and one other non-Sydney club.

The fact that there are fewer competitive clubs in the Super League affects crowds. The fact that there is so little geographical diversity, and the diverse clubs are not strong, affects the TV audience. In the NRL the TV audience is helped by a guarantee that most Friday night teleecasts will include at least one club from Queensland. In Britain, because there are so few non M62 clubs , and they are relatively weak, such a rule could not work with Sky at this time.

So there seems to be two issues: raise the number of competitive clubs, raise the geographical diversity of clubs.

The latter demands that the Super League be expanded geographically. The former problem is a much more difficult one to deal with. It is not clear to me what the solution is, other than increasing the financial resources at the weaker clubs so that all could spend up to the salary cap (easier said than done), and relying less on imports (which the RFL is trying to realise).

If these two issues could be resolved, then the Super League contests would become more diverse and more attractive to both ground spectators and the television auddience. In this way rugby league would surely become a more powerful and prosperous sport in Britain and France.

Edited by ParisSurtout, 21 July 2010 - 10:25 PM.

[Padge]

Talk about stating the fekin obvious.

[Padge]

Cucumber moment

Edited by Padge, 21 July 2010 - 10:12 PM.

[my missus]

the fact that we have a salary cap stops smaller clubs from becoming bigger clubs if harlequins could spend what they wanted they would be competetive as would the crusaders, they might go bust after a couple of years and they might not, at least we would see a better league.
and when and if they go bust someone else would step in so whats the prob.

[ParisSurtout]

Talk about stating the fekin obvious.

Aren't you becoming a little bit obsessive Padgy?

Have you ever thought of focusing more on photography?

Edited by ParisSurtout, 21 July 2010 - 10:16 PM.

[MrPosh]

Hmmm, but all the NRL clubs, except one, are from the East Coast where as the SL clubs that you mentioned are from Yorkshire, Greater Manchester and Cheshire (and Merseyside?). Much more diverse.

[ParisSurtout]

Hmmm, but all the NRL clubs, except one, are from the East Coast where as the SL clubs that you mentioned are from Yorkshire, Greater Manchester and Cheshire (and Merseyside?). Much more diverse.

??????

The maximum time to drive from Hull to Wigan, via Leeds and Greater Manchester south (to cover the M 62 clubs) is three hours. Fans do drive that far.

The minimum time to cover the east coast Australian clubs, travelling from Melbourne via Canberra to Sydney then up through Newcastle and on to Brisbane and Townsville is several days! No fans drive that far!

Edited by ParisSurtout, 21 July 2010 - 10:22 PM.

[Padge]

Aren't you becoming a little bit obsessive Padgy?

Have you ever thought of focusing more on photography?

Obsessive about what?

Yes.

[MrPosh]

??????

The maximum time to drive from Hull to Wigan, via Leeds and Greater Manchester south (to cover the M 62 clubs) is three hours. Fans do drive that far.

The minimum time to cover the east coast Australian clubs, travelling from Melbourne via Canberra to Sydney then up through Newcastle and on to Brisbane and Townsville is several days! No fans drive that far!

Arguing with you is a bit like telling my five year old that she can't have chocolate.

How can you argue about diversity when two thirds of the NRL are from one city? It's just pathetic.

[HappyDave]

Ah! I guess the Barcleys Premiership (footy) will never work as the are only 4-5 teams with any chance of winning the league...

[ParisSurtout]

Talk about stating the fekin obvious.

Ah! I guess the Barcleys Premiership (footy) will never work as the are only 4-5 teams with any chance of winning the league...

Hey Dave, why don't you go tell that to Padge as well?

Edited by ParisSurtout, 21 July 2010 - 11:32 PM.

[steef]

In recent years the Super League has had two or three, maximum four clubs, competing consistently for the top spots. In the early part of this decade it was St Helens and Bradford. Then Leeds became a contender, and Wigan was for a time just outside the top two. Then it became all Leeds and St Helens.

This year it is Wigan top, with Warrington and St Helens the nearest challengers, followed by Leeds, Hull FC and on its good days Huddersfield.

So we only have six clubs out of 14 who could win the competition (a minority), but realistically it is only four: Wigan, Warrington, St Helens and Leeds. And they are alll M62 clubs. The non-M62 clubs Crusaders, Harlequins and Catalans have no chance. So there is no geographical diversity among the competitive clubs.

Compare that with the NRL: in that competition there are 12 competitive clubs: Melbourne, St George-Illawarra, Penrith, Wests Tigers, Sydney Roosters, NZ Warriors, Manly, Brisbane, Gold Coast, South Sydney, Parramatta and Canberra. This is a strong majority of the 16. It is also somewhat geographically diverse with 7 of the 12 from Sydney metropolitan area, two from Queensland, one from NZ, one from the national capital, and one from Melbourne.

So in the NRL there is mcuch less certainty about who will win the NRL Grand Final, or even who will make the play offs. In part the NRL diversity reflects the greater diversity of the NRL competiiton where 9 of the 16 clubs are from Sydney -- a ratio which will likely fall in 2013 to 9 out of 18 with the addition of Perth and one other non-Sydney club.

The fact that there are fewer competitive clubs in the Super League affects crowds. The fact that there is so little geographical diversity, and the diverse clubs are not strong, affects the TV audience. In the NRL the TV audience is helped by a guarantee that most Friday night teleecasts will include at least one club from Queensland. In Britain, because there are so few non M62 clubs , and they are relatively weak, such a rule could not work with Sky at this time.

So there seems to be two issues: raise the number of competitive clubs, raise the geographical diversity of clubs.

The latter demands that the Super League be expanded geographically. The former problem is a much more difficult one to deal with. It is not clear to me what the solution is, other than increasing the financial resources at the weaker clubs so that all could spend up to the salary cap (easier said than done), and relying less on imports (which the RFL is trying to realise).

If these two issues could be resolved, then the Super League contests would become more diverse and more attractive to both ground spectators and the television auddience. In this way rugby league would surely become a more powerful and prosperous sport in Britain and France.

wich large, non heartland cities do you know of that could add quality to SL seeing how every single one will have a far worse junior setup than any existing club and will start its first season with less than 1000 season tickets sold. where a club is based has no effect on the quality of the comp, only the players coaches and refs can do that. If perth and another new club join th NRL and are both garbage only winning one game each against one another infront of 5,000 fans how will the NRL's quality have improved?

All that isn't to say that geographical expansion shouldn't happen, far from it, I fully support quins(as an example) being in SL but they aren't adding quality to the competition, they remain competetive enough to make up the numbers.

[East Coast Tiger]

Allowing clubs to spend more than the cap currently allows won't help. Wigan, Wire and Leeds would be even further ahead if they could buy whoever they wanted.

[no13benny]

??????

The maximum time to drive from Hull to Wigan, via Leeds and Greater Manchester south (to cover the M 62 clubs) is three hours. Fans do drive that far.

The minimum time to cover the east coast Australian clubs, travelling from Melbourne via Canberra to Sydney then up through Newcastle and on to Brisbane and Townsville is several days! No fans drive that far!

In scale with the size of our country, it's further to travel for us. (I thought I'd argue with nonsense too)

[bowes]

the fact that we have a salary cap stops smaller clubs from becoming bigger clubs if harlequins could spend what they wanted they would be competetive as would the crusaders, they might go bust after a couple of years and they might not, at least we would see a better league.
and when and if they go bust someone else would step in so whats the prob.

The salary cap is a flat one of £1.65 million (or something around that mark) so Harlequins could spend as much as the other clubs if they could afford it. There is no longer a 50% of turnover rule (probably why some clubs are in a bad financial state)

[brooza]

The minimum time to cover the east coast Australian clubs, travelling from Melbourne via Canberra to Sydney then up through Newcastle and on to Brisbane and Townsville is several days! No fans drive that far!

Surely Melbourne should be excluded from this as they have no chance of winning the NRL this year, and the only reason they won recent years was due to rorting the salary cap

[The Parksider]

In recent years the Super League has had two or three, maximum four clubs, competing consistently for the top spots. This year it is Wigan top, with Warrington and St Helens the nearest challengers, followed by Leeds, Hull FC and on its good days Huddersfield. So we only have six clubs out of 14 who could win the competition

So there seems to be two issues: raise the number of competitive clubs, raise the geographical diversity of clubs.

The latter demands that the Super League be expanded geographically. The former problem is a much more difficult one to deal with. It is not clear to me what the solution is, other than increasing the financial resources at the weaker clubs so that all could spend up to the salary cap (easier said than done)

If these two issues could be resolved, then the Super League contests would become more diverse and more attractive to both ground spectators and the television auddience. In this way rugby league would surely become a more powerful and prosperous sport in Britain and France.

A fair analysis and I'm sure the RFL are trying to achieve this. It doesn't help that the the cream of French Rugby have ended up bottom and stagnant thus blocking a natural progression to Toulouses entry. It doesn't help that the once mighty Bradford's demise on the pitch has seen fans abandon the club. It doesn't help when the Calder area that could give us another big club is in disarray. Quins and Crusaders need a generation or two to realise any potential as may Salford, and some other clubs may struggle simply being too near to existing SL clubs.

It's a long hard road to something like the NRL but there's one thing - there's no going back......

[ParisSurtout]

A fair analysis and I'm sure the RFL are trying to achieve this. It doesn't help that the the cream of French Rugby have ended up bottom and stagnant thus blocking a natural progression to Toulouses entry. It doesn't help that the once mighty Bradford's demise on the pitch has seen fans abandon the club. It doesn't help when the Calder area that could give us another big club is in disarray. Quins and Crusaders need a generation or two to realise any potential as may Salford, and some other clubs may struggle simply being too near to existing SL clubs.

It's a long hard road to something like the NRL but there's one thing - there's no going back......

I agree with most of your post, but I don't think that Catalans demise under Walters will affect Toulouse's application. It will be judged on other factors.

In any case I would expect Catalans to improve greatly next year. The new coach has been working at Sydney Roosters under Brian Smith, but has his own special technical contribution. Plus he has lived in France and speaks French as well as English, which will enable him to motivate the French players much better.

[ParisSurtout]

The ideal situation for Super League would be if the core big M62 clubs plus several expansion clubs, were competitive.

This would mean:

Wigan, St Helens, Warrington
Leeds, Bradford
Hull FC

Harlequins, Crusaders
Catalans, Toulouse

If we had these ten clubs out of fourteen competitive then we would have reached the "balanced playing field" situation of the NRL. SL would be a sensational viewing experience each week with huge crowds. That will take a long time to achieve given the current financial resources inequalities and the current economic recession.

In the interim we should hope and aim for at least five core M62 clubs and three diversity clubs to be competitive.

[BringBacktheBiff]

Interesting topic. Im all for expansion and would love to see more teams compete next time the licences are handed out, with Widnes and a Cumbrian added to the current 14. However this season has shown that there arent enought SL standard players in the country to support 14 Franchises let alone more. IMO Salford Quins and Catalans are some way behind the others and to a lesser extent the Bulls and Crusaders too. The others I feel are very competetive and I think any of the current top 6 are in with a decent shout of winning the Grand Final.