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At least one Super League club to lose licence in 2011


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#101 Bulletproof

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE (tonyXIII @ Aug 5 2010, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe not "baiting" exactly, but you (Widnes fans in general) seem unable to resist having a dig at us whenever the opportunity arises. That's okay, though. We've got broad shoulders.

I would point out that the Salford fans on here are generally more restrained and take a more pragmatic (realistic) view of our club's position than certain other fans. As it happens, our current approach is very similar to Mr O'Connor's. We have identified our main failing and concentrated on fixing it. In our case, it's the ground (priority number 1) in Widnes' case, with all other boxes ticked, it's Junior Development. We seem to be making progress on our priority, as do you. When we have fixed priority number 1, we'll switch our main focus of attention to whatever is seen as priority number 2. We'll get there.

FWIW, I'd be delighted to see Widnes in SL. I'd be disappointed to see Salford lose their place, but I won't take my bat home and cry "unfair" if it happens.


I wasn't having a go at Salford, I was sticking up for Wakefield. When I say you are very lucky, you must admit this is the case. For someone to state that no one deserves to be booted more than wakey it is hardly fair. I don't even support them, I just feel sorry that despite doing several things right they are sailing towards the championship just because they are as they always have been in heavily RL populated West Yorkshire. Salford have got the worst crowds out of the heartlands and are performing worse on the pitch than their main rivals for relegation. They are extremely fortunate that BBC are moving locally because the RFL sees this as an opportunity for greater publicity. Only time will tell whether this is the case but again, this is not at all a slight at Salford, I've just got to question this for a few reasons. I don't mind Salford as a club.

First off, I could not tell you who the closest football team to BBC TV centre is, someone informed me in another thread that it was QPR, which is a rather anonymous team all things considered.Aside from being Eddie Hitler's favourite team in Bottom I cannot think how they have ever benefitted from this, although I do think there is a bias towards London clubs in general. Also, our favourite main rival Rugby Union was a few seasons ago a sport with no top flight club in the capital and it didn't seem to stop them from recieving the amounts of publicity they did and continue to enjoy. I think it is the same now isn't it? Or are Harlequins now in the top flight? There are plenty in the area of london but few within the boundaries? This was discussed at length a while back anyway.

This being the case, Rugby League has plenty of clubs in the Manchester area, not least our most famous name Wigan. They are just not in Manchester as such. As a lot of the people working at BBC Salford Quays will simply be travelling from elsewhere (all of the presenters so far are going to commute) and not actually living there I don't really see why this is such a boon for the local game. I think the local sporting climate will be dominated by Manchester United. Rugby League might get a little more publicity in general but this will be a matter of whether Auntie decides to keep a look out across the area and doesn't simply carry on doing what they are doing from a salford office.

As I've said, it's not a dig at Salford, this is just something I've been pondering.

Now you've claimed that our fans are this and your fans are that etc etc. As with a lot of generalisations there is little truth in what you've said. First off, it doesn't matter to the majority of widnes fans who we replace as long as we get to the top flight which is our dream as everyone around here knows. People like Segovia Carpets, or Early Bath as he is known elsewhere, cannot resist having a pop at US which is why you have people discussing Salford in a negative light from my club. He has been running our name down for quite some time and wont let go the fact that several people at the last announcement thought we should have been in at your expense. This is a distant memory to me now, I couldn't care less about last time I'm focussed on next. Any percieved slight I make on Salford might actually not be a dig as such. It was not intended this way. Like I've said, at one point I was defending Wakey. You must understand you're not really in a better position than they are and have a trump card which you are fortunate to have. I recall a strong Salford chant going around the stobarts the year you were relegated in solidarity with you and in sympathy for your position. There is no real animosity between the clubs but I do find people like SC distasteful just because they are not particularly confident of their club's position and we are the ones most likely to be replacing them.

And your last paragraph, saying this and doing it are two entirely different things. I've been there, I wasn't having a good time generally and I overreacted badly to Widnes being left out. You can say now you will be grown up and reflective about it but you can't guarantee that at all. Considering what's at stake it's natural.

#102 Gary Coyle

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:29 PM

QUOTE (Bomb Jack @ Aug 5 2010, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's funny, i didn't see Steve O'Connor with his Boots on playing at Blackpool..........

Not so funny, well not for Widnes as i didn't see anyone from Widnes playing either tongue.gif

#103 Bomb Jack

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:31 PM

QUOTE (Gary Coyle @ Aug 5 2010, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not so funny, well not for Widnes as i didn't see anyone from Widnes playing either tongue.gif


At least my Team got to a Final.


Did yours ?
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#104 chrisl1

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:39 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 4 2010, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hate to say it but that sounds like it's been tailored to Widnes.

We are the only club averaging over 2,500 for a start.

The 1m pound thing is a problem, but I'm guessing the charitible donation would come from Steve O'Connor.

Either that or it's a late attempt to get Halifax and Barrow to massively up their attendances.

That said after reading the headline once again Wendall has sensationalised it. It says they are 'set to lose a license,' not that they definitely will.

I don't think the criteria have been tailored for Widnes and as such I think the suggestion does them a disservice. When Leigh were relegated last season and before they were reinstated because of Gateshead's problems there was a report in the League Express of an interview with the the then RFL's Craig Spence. The question put to him was whether Leigh could qualify to apply for a Super League licence from Championship1 provided they won the Northern Rail Cup. Craig Spence said that there could be problems regarding attendances and turnover in CC1. Therefore it looks as though these criteria were in place then if not before. Criterion 4 of the minimum criteria states the "turnover of a charitable foundation can be included in this figure". Presumably this relates to money received in grants from local authorities etc to run the charitable foundations. If it had been tailored for Widnes they would have required an average attendance of 3000 plus for either 2009 or 2010.

Edited by chrisl1, 05 August 2010 - 03:40 PM.


#105 tonyXIII

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:48 PM

QUOTE (Bulletproof @ Aug 5 2010, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wasn't having a go at Salford, I was sticking up for Wakefield. When I say you are very lucky, you must admit this is the case. For someone to state that no one deserves to be booted more than wakey it is hardly fair. I don't even support them, I just feel sorry that despite doing several things right they are sailing towards the championship just because they are as they always have been in heavily RL populated West Yorkshire. Salford have got the worst crowds out of the heartlands and are performing worse on the pitch than their main rivals for relegation. They are extremely fortunate that BBC are moving locally because the RFL sees this as an opportunity for greater publicity. Only time will tell whether this is the case but again, this is not at all a slight at Salford, I've just got to question this for a few reasons. I don't mind Salford as a club.

First off, I could not tell you who the closest football team to BBC TV centre is, someone informed me in another thread that it was QPR, which is a rather anonymous team all things considered.Aside from being Eddie Hitler's favourite team in Bottom I cannot think how they have ever benefitted from this, although I do think there is a bias towards London clubs in general. Also, our favourite main rival Rugby Union was a few seasons ago a sport with no top flight club in the capital and it didn't seem to stop them from recieving the amounts of publicity they did and continue to enjoy. I think it is the same now isn't it? Or are Harlequins now in the top flight? There are plenty in the area of london but few within the boundaries? This was discussed at length a while back anyway.

This being the case, Rugby League has plenty of clubs in the Manchester area, not least our most famous name Wigan. They are just not in Manchester as such. As a lot of the people working at BBC Salford Quays will simply be travelling from elsewhere (all of the presenters so far are going to commute) and not actually living there I don't really see why this is such a boon for the local game. I think the local sporting climate will be dominated by Manchester United. Rugby League might get a little more publicity in general but this will be a matter of whether Auntie decides to keep a look out across the area and doesn't simply carry on doing what they are doing from a salford office.

As I've said, it's not a dig at Salford, this is just something I've been pondering.

Now you've claimed that our fans are this and your fans are that etc etc. As with a lot of generalisations there is little truth in what you've said. First off, it doesn't matter to the majority of widnes fans who we replace as long as we get to the top flight which is our dream as everyone around here knows. People like Segovia Carpets, or Early Bath as he is known elsewhere, cannot resist having a pop at US which is why you have people discussing Salford in a negative light from my club. He has been running our name down for quite some time and wont let go the fact that several people at the last announcement thought we should have been in at your expense. This is a distant memory to me now, I couldn't care less about last time I'm focussed on next. Any percieved slight I make on Salford might actually not be a dig as such. It was not intended this way. Like I've said, at one point I was defending Wakey. You must understand you're not really in a better position than they are and have a trump card which you are fortunate to have. I recall a strong Salford chant going around the stobarts the year you were relegated in solidarity with you and in sympathy for your position. There is no real animosity between the clubs but I do find people like SC distasteful just because they are not particularly confident of their club's position and we are the ones most likely to be replacing them.

And your last paragraph, saying this and doing it are two entirely different things. I've been there, I wasn't having a good time generally and I overreacted badly to Widnes being left out. You can say now you will be grown up and reflective about it but you can't guarantee that at all. Considering what's at stake it's natural.


Wow! I had given up on a reply, but you've obviously been typing non-stop since my post. wink.gif
I actually thought Widnes were going to get the gig at our expense last time. I really will be glad to see them back.
I have posted elsewhere that our position is tenuous. We are bottom of the pile (except Quins) and have few, if any, juniors coming through. Our big positive is the ground, not the Beeb. I happen to agree with you that the Beeb have ignored us for years while in London and will continue to do so when they move to Manchester, but that is a different story. What I think licensing has done for the game is to force us to address issues which we have ignored for years (eg. Saints and their ground). The crucial ones this time round, IMO, are ground, on-field performance and junior development. I think Salford fail on two counts (three if the ground fails to materialise), which is why I won't be surprised if we get the bullet. I think Wakey and Cas both fail the ground test, their on-field performance, while better than ours, is not exactly brilliant and I'm not convinced about their junior development, though I concede it is probably better than ours. All in all, it's a close run thing and any one of the three could be out in twelve months. By the way, none of them would have any right to complain because they have known for a long time what they needed to do and have failed to do it.
Lastly, I promise I will be "grown up and reflective" if it happens. I'm too old to lose my rag about much nowadays. I've come to realise that life is too short and there are better ways to spend it than ranting and raving about life's injustices. They say wisdom comes with age. I must be very wise. biggrin.gif

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#106 nadera78

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:54 PM

QUOTE (Bulletproof @ Aug 5 2010, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Don't know where to start with this. We've had our stadium for much longer than recent financial issues, down more to a shady businessman than our club's long term viability or spending.

And to be fair, segovia is the one overreacting. There has been absolutely no baiting from widnes fans on this thread, certainly not me which is why his overreaction is more puzzling.


There is constant baiting of Salford fans over the issue of their stadium, and most of it by Widnes fans.

I just find it a little rich that they should criticise another club for not developing their facilities when they themselves only have such a lovely stadium because their local council built it and the EU funded it.

QUOTE (Bomb Jack @ Aug 5 2010, 09:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't have exact figures, but we sold the land / Ground to the Council for a vastly knocked down price, so they could build a Community Stadium.

So that's Widnes' fault is it ?


You almost make it sound like the club was doing the council a favour. Obviously it was the other way round; a club with no money selling it's only asset to the council who build them a lovely new stadium, and using the money to pay off its debts. That is what happened in the late 1990's, wasn't it?


Just to be clear on this, I think it's fantastic that you have a local authority that recognises your role and position within the local comunity and does something to support the club. Many other clubs would love to have that level of support. And I think Widnes would make a welcome addition to SL. But I dont like the attacks on other clubs from some of your fans.
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#107 The Clan

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:57 PM

QUOTE (tonyXIII @ Aug 5 2010, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think Wakey and Cas both fail the ground test, their on-field performance, while better than ours, is not exactly brilliant and I'm not convinced about their junior development, though I concede it is probably better than ours.



I won't speak for Castleford but Wakefield finished 5th last year and 8th in the two previous seasons.

How much convincing f Trinity's youth development do you need?

Ben Westwood, Gareth Ellis, Keith Mason, Steve Snitch, Danny Brough, Dale Ferguson, Dale Morton, Matt Blaymire, Jay Pitts, Aaron Murphy.......the list goes on.
ALSO Wakefield won the Academy league and Grand Final last year!



#108 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE (nadera78 @ Aug 5 2010, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is constant baiting of Salford fans over the issue of their stadium, and most of it by Widnes fans.

I just find it a little rich that they should criticise another club for not developing their facilities when they themselves only have such a lovely stadium because their local council built it and the EU funded it.



You almost make it sound like the club was doing the council a favour. Obviously it was the other way round; a club with no money selling it's only asset to the council who build them a lovely new stadium, and using the money to pay off its debts. That is what happened in the late 1990's, wasn't it?


Just to be clear on this, I think it's fantastic that you have a local authority that recognises your role and position within the local comunity and does something to support the club. Many other clubs would love to have that level of support. And I think Widnes would make a welcome addition to SL. But I dont like the attacks on other clubs from some of your fans.


The problem with Salford is that they have nothing else aside from a potential stadium.

On every other front they are easily the worst heartland club in Super League yet the stadium and the stadium alone could get them another 3 years.

#109 thirteenthman

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 06:05 PM

Salford have always struck me as being weaker than Wakefield and Castleford. The one thing Salford have going for them is potential. A new ground in the Salford/Manchester area could, and it's a big could, prove to be a catalyst for big things. If the club could get some major backing, then with an aggressive marketing campaign and better players they could really take off. You just get the niggling doubt that this being Salford it'll just turn out to be the same as it is now but in a different stadium.

Wakefield and Castelford will always have the problem of being small-ish clubs in a fairly crowded market. It's almost turning into a race as to which club can get a new ground up first. Other than that there's not much between them.

Just on Widnes, I seem to remember the council bought the ground so they could develop it as a community stadium. And I'm fairly sure Widnes weren't complaining as they were still recovering from the late 80s/early 90s era of spending way beyond their means. Not that there alone in that one, as Warrington Council bought the ground off the Wires at a time when they were struggling financially. Always found it odd that the council never sold the land on as they originally said they would. All the old signs and advertising hoardings are still up at the ground. Quite sad in a way.



#110 a.n Other

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 06:09 PM

QUOTE (Gary Coyle @ Aug 5 2010, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not so funny, well not for Widnes as i didn't see anyone from Widnes playing either tongue.gif



QUOTE (Bomb Jack @ Aug 5 2010, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At least my Team got to a Final.


Did yours ?



His team won it.

#111 Gary Coyle

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 07:04 PM

QUOTE (Bomb Jack @ Aug 5 2010, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At least my Team got to a Final.


Did yours ?

Erm, im from Batley. tongue.gif

#112 tonyXIII

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 07:20 PM

QUOTE (The Clan @ Aug 5 2010, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I won't speak for Castleford but Wakefield finished 5th last year and 8th in the two previous seasons.

How much convincing f Trinity's youth development do you need?

Ben Westwood, Gareth Ellis, Keith Mason, Steve Snitch, Danny Brough, Dale Ferguson, Dale Morton, Matt Blaymire, Jay Pitts, Aaron Murphy.......the list goes on.
ALSO Wakefield won the Academy league and Grand Final last year!


I used the term "convinced" because I genuinely don't know which players have come through Wakey's academy. Pure ignorance on my part.

Small point (nit-picking bar steward, I know) but how many of those have you retained? Aaron, yes. Any others?

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#113 NEIL FOX IS GOD

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:25 PM

http://www.skysports...6295932,00.html


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#114 Jill Halfpenny fan

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:39 PM

QUOTE (nadera78 @ Aug 5 2010, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is constant baiting of Salford fans over the issue of their stadium, and most of it by Widnes fans.

I just find it a little rich that they should criticise another club for not developing their facilities when they themselves only have such a lovely stadium because their local council built it and the EU funded it.



You almost make it sound like the club was doing the council a favour. Obviously it was the other way round; a club with no money selling it's only asset to the council who build them a lovely new stadium, and using the money to pay off its debts. That is what happened in the late 1990's, wasn't it?


Just to be clear on this, I think it's fantastic that you have a local authority that recognises your role and position within the local comunity and does something to support the club. Many other clubs would love to have that level of support. And I think Widnes would make a welcome addition to SL. But I dont like the attacks on other clubs from some of your fans.


Mate, we give it out but we take plenty back.

Just because you think everyone hates you doesn't mean they don't.

#115 Jill Halfpenny fan

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:41 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 4 2010, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hate to say it but that sounds like it's been tailored to Widnes.


Only found out about this today.

My first thought was that we had written the criteria. dry.gif
Just because you think everyone hates you doesn't mean they don't.

#116 Herbert Splatt

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:32 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 5 2010, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
failure to deliver thornes park ground as promised
past failure to upgrade belle vue as promised
lowest crowds out of you and cas, most likely relegation candidates

wakey have wasted around 10 million pounds of the RFLs money from sky.

enjoy the championship


This doesn't have any sense behind it whatsoever. Wakefield have never finished bottom of SL, and have been improving off the field for some time. We have averaged a good position over the last few years. Youth team successful last year. More young British players brought in to the first team this year than many other teams.

Hardly a waste is it.

#117 Herbert Splatt

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:43 AM

QUOTE (ShotgunGold @ Aug 5 2010, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wait do Wakefield and Castleford share a council then? Why are they supportive of Castleford's plans and not Wakefield's?


The leader of Wakefield's council is a Cas shareholder.

#118 dallymessenger

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 06:33 AM

QUOTE (Herbert Splatt @ Aug 6 2010, 03:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This doesn't have any sense behind it whatsoever. Wakefield have never finished bottom of SL, and have been improving off the field for some time. We have averaged a good position over the last few years. Youth team successful last year. More young British players brought in to the first team this year than many other teams.

Hardly a waste is it.


wakey are a symptom of where RL fails in england ie :

1. awful ground, and no real change in this regard
2. poor crowds which show little growth
3. inconsistant on field performance over time

but since they have always done enough to avoid relegation people seem to think its ok.

the failure to improve off the field is why RL in england is a minor sport (partly) ie poor heartland clubs

#119 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:44 AM

Regarding the 1 million turnover (i.e. gross cash generation), I've been having a few thoughts about this from a back of the envelope point of view

1/ Cash from crowds
Assuming a club average 2500, at an average 10 a head, that would generate 25k per game. If we assume there are 10 home games per year, then the figure would be 250k per year

2/ Cash from Matchday other than admission fee
Difficult to estimate, butwith food, drinks, corporate and programmes, I would guess this to also generate 10 a head. Therefore this would also generate 250k per year

3/ Merchandise
Assuming 1/4 of 2500 fans buy a shirt (or an equivalent item) at 40, then, this would generate 25k

Using these basic perhaps a little pessimistic numbers would leave a club still well short (just over half), so other income would be required such as match-day sponsors, shirt sponsors and also any sky money. I have no idea what this would be

Also what about cash which a sugar daddy puts in?

#120 bowes

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:24 AM

QUOTE (ParisSurtout @ Aug 4 2010, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The operational rules are clear:

(iii) any overseas clubs invited to apply by the Board.

Toulouse, like Paris Stade Francais, is an overseas club.

Therefore Toulouse can be invited to join Super League and given a license.

You don't need to be a lawyer to understand this logic.

Toulouse may not be in the Championship by December 2010 (I am still seeking confirmation of this), which if true would make the on field qualifying criteria for Championship clubs irrelevant to them.

But even if they stay in the Championship, the status of overseas club may override the Championship club criteria.

Personally I hope that Toulouse leaves the Championship, to make their possible license application success unambiguous, and give Paris SF a chance to join the Championship for a couple of years.


If Toulouse leave the Championship then it's too late to join French Elite 2010/11 and if they play French Elite 2011/12 they can't play SL 2012 as the seasons overlap and vice versa. Thus they'd be applying for SL from no league (aside from the reserve team link up with St Gaudens) and if they got accepted they'd have had a full year sabbatical (which would lose them players), though of course when they get rejected they could then join the 2011/12 French Elite.





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