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#21 Johnoco

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:45 PM

QUOTE (R J Wagsmith @ Aug 5 2010, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here's an idea. Why don't we say that the team which finishes bottom of Superleague goes down and the team which wins the Championship goes up? I don't know whether other sports have tried such a revolutionary approach but it might be worth a thought.


Good idea. We could then have clubs like Portsmouth and Hull City.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#22 West Country Eagle

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:58 PM

QUOTE (BulldogBurt @ Aug 5 2010, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I lost all hope of an informed and impartial piece after his opening line, a sly dig at league's encampment around the M62...

"Widnes supporters might as well start checking out the route maps to Hull now (not that it's a very complicated journey get on the M62 at one end and drive all the way to the other)"

....is this guy for real? It irks me to think that someone with such a thinly veiled loathing of our game is in the privileged position of writing about it for a living.


That's very harsh on Andy. He's very passionate about the game, but he is a realist. He also has an Editor who is more interested in negative stories than anything else. To keep getting paid for work for the Guardian he has to toe their line.

I've seen Andy on the touchline at summer Conference games - something that can't be said for all RL journos, certainly those who work for the nationals.
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#23 West Country Eagle

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:01 PM

QUOTE (Bomb Jack @ Aug 5 2010, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But Licencing is about the strongest Clubs, NOT the strongest Teams.


EXACTLY!

Having done so well in previous years, Widnes had no need to go out and spend big on players this year, which is what some of their Championship rivals have done in a desperate bid to try and win something. O'Connor and company have instead concentrated on youth development, off field issues etc to get that side of the business up to SL standard.

They've taken the right approach, whatever NE thinks.


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#24 R J Wagsmith

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:30 PM

QUOTE (Johnoco @ Aug 6 2010, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good idea. We could then have clubs like Portsmouth and Hull City.


And Manchester United and Manchester City and Liverpool. Silly idea, isn't it?

#25 Johnoco

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:33 PM

QUOTE (R J Wagsmith @ Aug 6 2010, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And Manchester United and Manchester City and Liverpool. Silly idea, isn't it?


What, the Man Utd that are approx 700Million in debt? laugh.gif

The Man City that would die off when the wealthy Arab owner gets bored?

The Liverpool FC that are now being allegedly bought by the Chinese Gov't? Not to mention their huge debt...and all this with all the money generated.

That my friend is the REAL farce!

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#26 Odsal Outlaw

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:45 PM

QUOTE (THE RED ROOSTER @ Aug 6 2010, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am surprised at the constant trashing of Andy Wilson on here, He has written a well-balanced article from a well sourced journalist. That is sourced as opposed to sauced which seems to be the state of some posters on this forum...


I thought it was a good article as well. I don't think he is having a go at RL in anyway, just commenting on the current goings-on. You can't really argue with much of what he has put.


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#27 R J Wagsmith

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE (Johnoco @ Aug 6 2010, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What, the Man Utd that are approx 700Million in debt? laugh.gif

The Man City that would die off when the wealthy Arab owner gets bored?

The Liverpool FC that are now being allegedly bought by the Chinese Gov't? Not to mention their huge debt...and all this with all the money generated.

That my friend is the REAL farce!


Oh don't be daft. The financial arrangements of football clubs and their extraordinary extravagances are not the point. One could argue much about the global banking system and the way in which those "entrepeneurs" have changed/ruined sport throughout the world just looking for a quick buck.
The three clubs I mentioned will survive for ever. Man City will not "die off". Man U and Liverpool are still utterly secure. You are surely not suggesting that they are not viable and would not be offerred a franchise were football to introduce such a system.
Think of the number of clubs who have been relegated and then been promoted again. I saw the first wonderful match Fulham played against Wigan, who had just gone down. Fulham won.It was brilliant. Wigan went back up and are ...er ... Wigan. They will last forever.
Sport needs romance. It needs hope. It needs a dream. That's one of the reasons we support the teams we do.
Promotion and relegation is self-evidently fair and just. I would love Widnes to be in Superleague. And Barrow. And others who deserve it.
But please don't buy into the hype which suggests THIS IS THE WAY FORWARD.
Actually, it isn't

#28 Johnoco

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 06:09 PM

QUOTE (R J Wagsmith @ Aug 6 2010, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The three clubs I mentioned will survive for ever. Man City will not "die off". Man U and Liverpool are still utterly secure.


The fact that these clubs have such long histories, have had much success and get huge crowds, generate so much money...and yet to be in the situation as they are says to me that something is not right somewhere, so why use them as an example of what to follow?

I don't know the answer about P&R but if anything possibly favour it but let's not pretend it also doesn't bring a load of problems for clubs.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#29 Father Ted

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 06:32 PM

Andy Wilson knows the score with SL as do most of us.
His main point is that Widnes are going in SL come 2012, which they are.
The other matter re Wakefield is also correct that at the moment they are the most vulnerable.
Salford won't go as the new stadium would go to Sale RU thereby handing the whole Manc conurbation over to Union. The RFL will never let Salford or Rugby League down like that.
Castleford's position is vulnerable too but they have a better Rugby League base in their town rather than Wakefield do.
Wakey might be the most vulnerable but it is not a cert yet that it will be them to go down.


#30 Jill Halfpenny fan

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:45 PM

QUOTE (THE RED ROOSTER @ Aug 6 2010, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am surprised at the constant trashing of Andy Wilson on here, He has written a well-balanced article from a well sourced journalist. That is sourced as opposed to sauced which seems to be the state of some posters on this forum...


Trashing Wilson is par for the course on here.
Just because you think everyone hates you doesn't mean they don't.

#31 Pottsy

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE (BulldogBurt @ Aug 5 2010, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I lost all hope of an informed and impartial piece after his opening line, a sly dig at league's encampment around the M62...

"Widnes supporters might as well start checking out the route maps to Hull now (not that it's a very complicated journey get on the M62 at one end and drive all the way to the other)"

....is this guy for real? It irks me to think that someone with such a thinly veiled loathing of our game is in the privileged position of writing about it for a living.


Have you ever met Andy Wilson? The bloke is massively passionate about League.

However, the bloke earns his living as a journalist - not as a cheerleader/apologist.


#32 Northern Exposure

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:52 PM

It doesn't matter who wrote it, the fact that a side that finished 4th and lost in the semis last year, are currently languishing in 8th and lost the National Rail Cup Final makes an absolute mockery of the setup.

Period.

If Widnes go up, its a travesty for Rugby League.

You can produce 50 youth players per season, but if they're all rubbish it makes no difference.

To get a license in SL by what seems like by default is a disgraceful by the RFL.


Promote Widnes and they finish in the bottom 2 of SL for the next 3 years.


Genius idea - watch the crowds plummet.
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#33 3owls

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:10 PM

QUOTE (Northern Exposure @ Aug 6 2010, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It doesn't matter who wrote it, the fact that a side that finished 4th and lost in the semis last year, are currently languishing in 8th and lost the National Rail Cup Final makes an absolute mockery of the setup.

Period.

If Widnes go up, its a travesty for Rugby League.

You can produce 50 youth players per season, but if they're all rubbish it makes no difference.

To get a license in SL by what seems like by default is a disgraceful by the RFL.


Promote Widnes and they finish in the bottom 2 of SL for the next 3 years.


Genius idea - watch the crowds plummet.

Well said that man, the most sense spoken on this topic for a long time.

#34 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:07 AM

QUOTE (Northern Exposure @ Aug 6 2010, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It doesn't matter who wrote it, the fact that a side that finished 4th and lost in the semis last year, are currently languishing in 8th and lost the National Rail Cup Final makes an absolute mockery of the setup.

Period.

If Widnes go up, its a travesty for Rugby League.

You can produce 50 youth players per season, but if they're all rubbish it makes no difference.

To get a license in SL by what seems like by default is a disgraceful by the RFL.


Promote Widnes and they finish in the bottom 2 of SL for the next 3 years.


Genius idea - watch the crowds plummet.


Do you have any idea what the actual setup is and how it works?

If you did you'd see that it is more about off the field than on the field. That's why promoting teams like Barrow and Fev despite not meeting criteria to be a successful SL club would be the real farce. Featherstone's own chairman has even said that they aren't ready. You'd also see that the RFL set up a minimum on the field criteria that Widnes met, so that there was no point doing any more. If you had half a brain you'd also see that if we didn't have licensing then the make up and priorities of the league would be very different. The clubs very probably wouldn't have voted to reduce the salary cap as it naturally evens out the league.

How exactly does our squad with a salary cap of 300k indicate how we will do in a league where the salary cap is 1.4m?

If you're going to troll about licensing at least try to understand how it works.

Do you realise that our largest crowds came when we were in the bottom 2 of SL?

Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is? 50 quid to XIII heroes that Widnes won't finish in the bottom of SL for 3 years.

Edited by Maximus Decimus, 07 August 2010 - 10:11 AM.


#35 ckn

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:13 AM

QUOTE (THE RED ROOSTER @ Aug 6 2010, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am surprised at the constant trashing of Andy Wilson on here, He has written a well-balanced article from a well sourced journalist. That is sourced as opposed to sauced which seems to be the state of some posters on this forum...

I do tend to agree. Andy has come out with some genuinely good scoops over the years and plenty across the RL community (not just on here) are willing to shoot the messenger. That said, he is a bit of a miserable sod with some of his articles, it's not all that doom and gloom in the sport! biggrin.gif

Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#36 Northern Exposure

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:24 AM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 7 2010, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you have any idea what the actual setup is and how it works?

If you did you'd see that it is more about off the field than on the field. That's why promoting teams like Barrow and Fev despite not meeting criteria to be a successful SL club would be the real farce. Featherstone's own chairman has even said that they aren't ready. You'd also see that the RFL set up a minimum on the field criteria that Widnes met, so that there was no point doing any more. If you had half a brain you'd also see that if we didn't have licensing then the make up and priorities of the league would be very different. The clubs very probably wouldn't have voted to reduce the salary cap as it naturally evens out the league.

How exactly does our squad with a salary cap of 300k indicate how we will do in a league where the salary cap is 1.4m?

If you're going to troll about licensing at least try to understand how it works.

Do you realise that our largest crowds came when we were in the bottom 2 of SL?

Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is? 50 quid to XIII heroes that Widnes won't finish in the bottom of SL for 3 years.


You're a Widnes fan so ergo, biased.

I don't care if its Widens being touted or Dewsbury or Keighley.

Whats the point of RL players going out to win games if they know that there's no chance they'll get too play in SL?


Are you implying that the SL should only be full of financially viable clubs disregarding the results on the field?

Give over. Look at Blackpool in soccer. Its dreamland that they are in the Premiership. Sure they may go straight back down, but they've reaped the rewards for results on the field.

This isn't Monopoly.



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#37 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:31 AM

QUOTE (Northern Exposure @ Aug 7 2010, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're a Widnes fan so ergo, biased.

I don't care if its Widens being touted or Dewsbury or Keighley.

Whats the point of RL players going out to win games if they know that there's no chance they'll get too play in SL?


Are you implying that the SL should only be full of financially viable clubs disregarding the results on the field?

Give over. Look at Blackpool in soccer. Its dreamland that they are in the Premiership. Sure they may go straight back down, but they've reaped the rewards for results on the field.

This isn't Monopoly.


Neither I, nor Widnes created the licensing system.

I would happily accept a return to promotion and relegation but it's not coming back any time soon.

What's the point in Widnes going all out to win the Championship but not meeting the off-field criteria for Super League?

You're continued attacks on Widnes are based on not understanding how licensing works or choosing to ignore it. There's no point continually going on about how Widnes should not be included based on something that the RFL aren't going to base it on.

If you had a tiny bit of intelligence you'd recognise that if we did still have promotion and relegation and on the field results did matter then the priorities of a club like Widnes would be very different.

Your a troll so ergo your opinion is pointless.

#38 R J Wagsmith

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:31 AM

QUOTE (Northern Exposure @ Aug 7 2010, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whats the point of RL players going out to win games if they know that there's no chance they'll get to play in SL?


Are you implying that the SL should only be full of financially viable clubs disregarding the results on the field?

Give over. Look at Blackpool in soccer. Its dreamland that they are in the Premiership. Sure they may go straight back down, but they've reaped the rewards for results on the field.

This isn't Monopoly.


Exactly!

#39 getdownmonkeyman

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE (ckn @ Aug 7 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do tend to agree. Andy has come out with some genuinely good scoops over the years and plenty across the RL community (not just on here) are willing to shoot the messenger. That said, he is a bit of a miserable sod with some of his articles, it's not all that doom and gloom in the sport! biggrin.gif


Ask yourself this; when did he last write a positive piece?

#40 Dirk Diggler

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 08:08 PM

One of the things that people don't seem to get with the licencing system is that it fundamentally changes the definition of success.
Widnes are currently in the position of only needing to avoid relegation each year. Winning games is nice but not important, it does not change their licence score which (rather than the game score) is the one that matters. If playing 13 rubbin' rags from Widnes gets them a licence point and a beating each week then that is what they will do. Widnes are probably a big supporter of dropping the cap level in NL1 because money on players is money wasted for them. They need to keep the gates up above the limit for licence qualification and if everyone pays less they can charge less which encourages walk ups. When they get their licence the money they might save now can be spent scoring licence points in SL.




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