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Brian Carney on B&A on Wed


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#1 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:16 AM

I totally disagree with Carney's view about licensing on Wed. He siad that they should forget about defo promoting one club and just make sure the best 14 teams are there

This is a totally flawed argument because the teams in the Co-Op championship don't get the opportunity to get big crowds week in week out for at least 3-years, so cannot be equally compared to SL clubs. Also do we really want to restrict the number of towns to 14 who can ever have aspirations?

Also someone needs to explain the "chicken and egg" situation to everyone on sky and at the RFL.

People will not watch RL in numbers much great than 1-2k if there is no definite route to promotion on-the-pitch

Also investors will not come in unless there is a guaranteed route. What happens if two clubs were meeting the criteria at the moment? In reality the RFL shoudl put both up BUT they will not. Therefore this puts off fans and investors

The RFL has just layed out some criteria, so why not modify it to say that the highest placed club who wins the most things AND meets the other criteria then defo goes up

#2 Bob8

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:19 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Aug 6 2010, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I totally disagree with Carney's view about licensing on Wed. He siad that they should forget about defo promoting one club and just make sure the best 14 teams are there

This is a totally flawed argument because the teams in the Co-Op championship don't get the opportunity to get big crowds week in week out for at least 3-years, so cannot be equally compared to SL clubs. Also do we really want to restrict the number of towns to 14 who can ever have aspirations?

Also someone needs to explain the "chicken and egg" situation to everyone on sky and at the RFL.

People will not watch RL in numbers much great than 1-2k if there is no definite route to promotion on-the-pitch

Also investors will not come in unless there is a guaranteed route. What happens if two clubs were meeting the criteria at the moment? In reality the RFL shoudl put both up BUT they will not. Therefore this puts off fans and investors

The RFL has just layed out some criteria, so why not modify it to say that the highest placed club who wins the most things AND meets the other criteria then defo goes up


Then presumably if the club that wins the most things does not meet other criteria, then no-one will go up. That is even if there are clubs in the second flight stronger than clubs in Super League. That is a stronger stance against P&R than Carney is taking.

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#3 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:04 PM

Carney is of course correct, the 14 strongest clubs should be in Super League.

However I don't like this presumption that the 14 strongest clubs are already in Super League and that the RFL may have cocked up. This is far from the case. The reality is that there are approximately 4 or 5 clubs in Super League that could be replaced by 3 or 4 in the Championship that would do a similar if not better job than those in Super League. It is only timing and one-off games that has determined which of the clubs are in which division. If licensing had occured in 2005, Widnes and Leigh would be in and Hull KR would not.

Widnes, Fax, Barrow and Leigh would all do as good a job as Salford or Wakey and some would do better. The RFL in guaranteeing a place to a Championship club made no gamble, there was always going to be at least one Super League club that could be interchanged for a Championship club without weakening Super League in the slightest.


#4 1976PMJwires

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:08 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 6 2010, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Carney is of course correct, the 14 strongest clubs should be in Super League.

However I don't like this presumption that the 14 strongest clubs are already in Super League and that the RFL may have cocked up. This is far from the case. The reality is that there are approximately 4 or 5 clubs in Super League that could be replaced by 3 or 4 in the Championship that would do a similar if not better job than those in Super League. It is only timing and one-off games that has determined which of the clubs are in which division. If licensing had occured in 2005, Widnes and Leigh would be in and Hull KR would not.

Widnes, Fax, Barrow and Leigh would all do as good a job as Salford or Wakey and some would do better. The RFL in guaranteeing a place to a Championship club made no gamble, there was always going to be at least one Super League club that could be interchanged for a Championship club without weakening Super League in the slightest.



Good Post and I for one agree with you.

#5 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:17 PM

QUOTE (Bob8 @ Aug 6 2010, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then presumably if the club that wins the most things does not meet other criteria, then no-one will go up. That is even if there are clubs in the second flight stronger than clubs in Super League. That is a stronger stance against P&R than Carney is taking.


I did mention the highest placed club who wins the most things AND meets the other criteria

That could imply that highest placed club in the on-pitch ranking which did meet all criteria would then go up



#6 guess who

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 01:35 PM

He was right what he said about the Welch club.

#7 gingerjon

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 01:42 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 6 2010, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Carney is of course correct, the 14 strongest clubs should be in Super League.

However I don't like this presumption that the 14 strongest clubs are already in Super League and that the RFL may have cocked up. This is far from the case.


Agreed.
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#8 L Bow

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:10 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 6 2010, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Carney is of course correct, the 14 strongest clubs should be in Super League.

However I don't like this presumption that the 14 strongest clubs are already in Super League and that the RFL may have cocked up. This is far from the case. The reality is that there are approximately 4 or 5 clubs in Super League that could be replaced by 3 or 4 in the Championship that would do a similar if not better job than those in Super League. It is only timing and one-off games that has determined which of the clubs are in which division. If licensing had occured in 2005, Widnes and Leigh would be in and Hull KR would not.

Widnes, Fax, Barrow and Leigh would all do as good a job as Salford or Wakey and some would do better. The RFL in guaranteeing a place to a Championship club made no gamble, there was always going to be at least one Super League club that could be interchanged for a Championship club without weakening Super League in the slightest.


Widnes yes in the short term and Fax maybe also in the short term. The question for me is what do they do for RL in the long term. Barrow and Leigh definitely not.

The problem for the RFL as they seek to grow the sport, though grow maybe an over ambitious statement, perhaps maintain might be a better view, is that the game as a limited geograpical spread at elite level. This limited spread makes it less attractive to sponsors and also allows the national media to give it limited exposure. Whether the latter is fair is something that can be debated however, the limited geographical spread is a strong justification and one that is factually correct.

The last 40 years have seen the erosion of RL within the old Lancashire boundaries and in particular around Manchester. A quick look at the league tables show that Swinton, Rochdale and Oldham are virtually dead. Salford have been on life support for a number of years. If RL can not maintain a strong thriving presence in Manchester then it really is signally the fact that it will never be a national sport.




#9 Wolford6

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:48 PM

Face it; you're just a small town in Wigan.

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#10 Northern Exposure

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:12 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 6 2010, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Carney is of course correct, the 14 strongest clubs should be in Super League.

However I don't like this presumption that the 14 strongest clubs are already in Super League and that the RFL may have cocked up. This is far from the case. The reality is that there are approximately 4 or 5 clubs in Super League that could be replaced by 3 or 4 in the Championship that would do a similar if not better job than those in Super League. It is only timing and one-off games that has determined which of the clubs are in which division. If licensing had occured in 2005, Widnes and Leigh would be in and Hull KR would not.

Widnes, Fax, Barrow and Leigh would all do as good a job as Salford or Wakey and some would do better. The RFL in guaranteeing a place to a Championship club made no gamble, there was always going to be at least one Super League club that could be interchanged for a Championship club without weakening Super League in the slightest.



Widnes, Fax and Leigh have all had their chance and have royally blown it.


Time for Barrow or Fev to get a go.

Edited by Northern Exposure, 06 August 2010 - 03:13 PM.

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#11 1976PMJwires

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:42 PM

QUOTE (Northern Exposure @ Aug 6 2010, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Widnes, Fax and Leigh have all had their chance and have royally blown it.


Time for Barrow or Fev to get a go.



Complete difference from when they were last in SL


Widnes, Fax and Leigh, all have new stadia, in some ways they are ahead of your team.



#12 thirteenthman

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:57 PM

QUOTE (Northern Exposure @ Aug 6 2010, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Widnes, Fax and Leigh have all had their chance and have royally blown it.


Time for Barrow or Fev to get a go.

Barrow and Featherstone were once in the top division, so they've had their chance and blown it. Or do we ignore anything pre-1996? In fact if you go back to the days of one division where everybody 'had their chance' I reckon it leaves only London Skolars, Toulouse and South Wales Scorpions as possible contenders. Skolars for Super League - the campaign starts now!

Or how about putting every teams name in a hat and picking one out at random? Do it like the Lottery live on TV, or better still like the Challenge Cup draw with the old velvet bag and the 'hot' balls.



#13 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 05:48 PM

QUOTE (L Bow @ Aug 6 2010, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Widnes yes in the short term and Fax maybe also in the short term. The question for me is what do they do for RL in the long term. Barrow and Leigh definitely not.

The problem for the RFL as they seek to grow the sport, though grow maybe an over ambitious statement, perhaps maintain might be a better view, is that the game as a limited geograpical spread at elite level. This limited spread makes it less attractive to sponsors and also allows the national media to give it limited exposure. Whether the latter is fair is something that can be debated however, the limited geographical spread is a strong justification and one that is factually correct.

The last 40 years have seen the erosion of RL within the old Lancashire boundaries and in particular around Manchester. A quick look at the league tables show that Swinton, Rochdale and Oldham are virtually dead. Salford have been on life support for a number of years. If RL can not maintain a strong thriving presence in Manchester then it really is signally the fact that it will never be a national sport.


This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. The idea that whoever comes up has to add something to the game or be part of a long term plan.

Licensing wasn't an abandonment of total promotion and relegation or an admittance that we now had the 14 strongest clubs in the top flight. It was about stability and giving clubs a fair chance over 3 years. Every 3 years it reviews those 14 strongest clubs based on an understanding that the strongest top flight possible is what is best for rugby league. That of course includes expansion clubs but all Widnes or any other club need to do is indicate that they will do a better job than one of the clubs currently in that 14. The long term is for the RFL to sort out not to burden those clubs wishing to fairly be given their chance where other clubs through their good fortune, have been given theirs.

The Salford issue is an entirely separate one but the question exists how many failing clubs do we continue to prop up in Super League purely on the bounds of a geographical ideal? If we include Salford in this that is 3 clubs that are in Super League purely for their location alone, where do you draw the line?

#14 Jill Halfpenny fan

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:52 PM

Think your all missing the point on Carney.

The way I read it was that in his opinion, the 14 best clubs were definately not already in Superleague.

He's made the point many times that he thought the decision to allow Crusaders in and then to relocate after 12 months was wrong.
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#15 LOWFIELD

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:01 PM

QUOTE (Jill Halfpenny fan @ Aug 6 2010, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Think your all missing the point on Carney.

The way I read it was that in his opinion, the 14 best clubs were definately not already in Superleague.

He's made the point many times that he thought the decision to allow Crusaders in and then to relocate after 12 months was wrong.


Who gives a flying shiiite what Carney thinks, the Irish republican who refused to sing god save the queen but took her silver. The mans a hypocrite

#16 L Bow

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:03 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 6 2010, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. The idea that whoever comes up has to add something to the game or be part of a long term plan.

Licensing wasn't an abandonment of total promotion and relegation or an admittance that we now had the 14 strongest clubs in the top flight. It was about stability and giving clubs a fair chance over 3 years. Every 3 years it reviews those 14 strongest clubs based on an understanding that the strongest top flight possible is what is best for rugby league. That of course includes expansion clubs but all Widnes or any other club need to do is indicate that they will do a better job than one of the clubs currently in that 14. The long term is for the RFL to sort out not to burden those clubs wishing to fairly be given their chance where other clubs through their good fortune, have been given theirs.

The Salford issue is an entirely separate one but the question exists how many failing clubs do we continue to prop up in Super League purely on the bounds of a geographical ideal? If we include Salford in this that is 3 clubs that are in Super League purely for their location alone, where do you draw the line?


The custodians of the game can not ignore the long term strategy of the game. The fact that previous custodians of the game have has resulted in their being no longer a presence in Liverpool, a weak presence in Manchester and one on life support in London. I never thought I'd see the day that RL was pushed out of Manchester but if Sale get into the new Salford stadium and Salford are not in SL then that would be another black day for RL.

#17 3owls

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 6 2010, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Carney is of course correct, the 14 strongest clubs should be in Super League.

However I don't like this presumption that the 14 strongest clubs are already in Super League and that the RFL may have cocked up. This is far from the case. The reality is that there are approximately 4 or 5 clubs in Super League that could be replaced by 3 or 4 in the Championship that would do a similar if not better job than those in Super League. It is only timing and one-off games that has determined which of the clubs are in which division. If licensing had occured in 2005, Widnes and Leigh would be in and Hull KR would not.

Widnes, Fax, Barrow and Leigh would all do as good a job as Salford or Wakey and some would do better. The RFL in guaranteeing a place to a Championship club made no gamble, there was always going to be at least one Super League club that could be interchanged for a Championship club without weakening Super League in the slightest.

Widnes are making a good job of not being one of the best 6 clubs in the championship you clown.

#18 1976PMJwires

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE (3owls @ Aug 7 2010, 12:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Widnes are making a good job of not being one of the best 6 clubs in the championship you clown.


is that similar to leeds, trying to be one of the top4 SL clubs this year wink.gif


(no need to call MD a clown)

#19 deluded pom?

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE (1976PMJwires @ Aug 6 2010, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Complete difference from when they were last in SL


Widnes, Fax and Leigh, all have new stadia, in some ways they are ahead of your team.


Widnes had the same stadium last time they were in the SL and Fax have a shiny new stand from the last time they were in the SL. huh.gif

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#20 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 08:31 AM

QUOTE (LOWFIELD @ Aug 6 2010, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Who gives a flying shiiite what Carney thinks, the Irish republican who refused to sing god save the queen but took her silver. The mans a hypocrite


I'm an English republican and I don't sing that ####.

It should not be the anthem for GB&I anyway




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