Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 401 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, full colour, in-depth coverage from the grassroots through to the international game.
Click here for the digital edition or just download the Rugby League World app from Apple Newsstand or Google Play now.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 401
/ View a Gallery of all our previous 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 401
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

St Helens vs Bradford Bulls


  • Please log in to reply
191 replies to this topic

Poll: Who will win? (22 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will win?

  1. St Helens (16 votes [72.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 72.73%

  2. Bradford Bulls (5 votes [22.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.73%

  3. Draw (1 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#21 1976PMJwires

1976PMJwires
  • Coach
  • 9,453 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:18 PM

Mick, fair comments on both posts.


But remember you have seen some GREAT years and plenty of success.

Most SL fans would give there right hand for just one SL, or even a GF.

the fall of Bradford is dreadful... not good for SL like you stated, agree 100%.

lost revenue as you pointed out with your BIG away following.

#22 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,942 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:19 PM

QUOTE (Tommy The C5t @ Aug 10 2010, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You'll find them in the pubs all over the city talking utter ###### about what should and shouldn't be done.

It really pains me when you arrive in the pub clad in Bulls shirt, scarf etc and then to have some horrible thing that claims to be the oracle of Odsal tell me that we are ###### on just hearing the result.

I could murder the lot of them, but it's these people and it pains me to say this that they hold the key to our future.


It's a shame the way support has fallen away Mick, It didn't do that when Wigan sank badly. I just wonder why this is happening?


#23 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 19,717 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:43 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Aug 10 2010, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's a shame the way support has fallen away Mick, It didn't do that when Wigan sank badly. I just wonder why this is happening?

Wigans support is more ingrained. The rise in Bulls support contained a lot of casual fans or non RL fans (like me) lots of whom have since left. The core fanbase and general interest in RL has risen quite a bit though, so it's not all doom & gloom.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#24 Tommy The C5t

Tommy The C5t
  • Coach
  • 13,479 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Aug 10 2010, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's a shame the way support has fallen away Mick, It didn't do that when Wigan sank badly. I just wonder why this is happening?


Next season is a new era for Bradford Parksider and for mine it's 1996 all over again and a chance to build on some solid foundations put in place by McNamara and Medly.

We have a new coach in Mick Potter who is already used to Odsal.

We've some excellent young players already at just about Super League level (Donaldson, Whitehead, Addy, Southernwood, George Burgess, Finnigan, Olbison and Crookes), who will form in my eyes our serious tilt at the title in 2013 but we could do with maybe one or two decent off season signings to improve the squad for next year and help bring these hot young prospects on with regards to their overall development.

I've said for the past two month that the club need to do something special to entice the lost support back to Odsal and we have this to look forward to next Sunday:

On Sunday 22nd August during the half time interval Bradford Bulls Chairman Peter Hood will announce a radical and innovative membership initiative for next season and the start of the new decade. This unique opportunity surpasses any deal in the history of the club, giving loyal Bulls fans an unprecedented membership package.

Which can be described as the Bradford board sending out the sos after the two woeful years that we've just had.

But this won't be enough, what we need to do is go back to the tried and tested route that worked 15 years ago by sending Bullman and the players in and around the cities schools and Rugby League clubs (the club needs to get it's self out there, promoting itself and its product once again) and hand out "free kids entry when accompanied with a full paying adult.

There still a recession on, and a lot of families in Bradford (one of the UK's poorest cities) don't have a lot of money to spend on luxuries like going to watch the Bulls up at Odsal so the free kids tickets will make it cheaper for them to come to the game.

The Harris saga and all it's consequences have not helped us one bit, so too has the ongoing saga surrounding odsal stadium which is slowly financially crippling us.

But I would like to think that this eleven game losing run is rock bottom and that from next season we really can kick on and be the force we were back in the late 90's once again.

#25 Tommy The C5t

Tommy The C5t
  • Coach
  • 13,479 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 09:57 PM

QUOTE (1976PMJwires @ Aug 10 2010, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mick, fair comments on both posts.


But remember you have seen some GREAT years and plenty of success.

Most SL fans would give there right hand for just one SL, or even a GF.

the fall of Bradford is dreadful... not good for SL like you stated, agree 100%.

lost revenue as you pointed out with your BIG away following.


I know but it's not just us moaning about having a right to win everything in sight, but that we have so much deadwood, not to mention the many underachievers at the club.



#26 Lee

Lee
  • Coach
  • 5,115 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 10:01 PM


Saints

Daylight

Bulls


A lot of Yorkshiremen believe that when God created the world, he made it with perfect balance.
He balanced the hot areas with the cold areas. the dry areas with the wet areas.
And, in creating Yorkshire, he created the most glorious place on earth - full of majestic beauty and sporting giants.........and for balance he created....... Lancashire.

#27 Tommy The C5t

Tommy The C5t
  • Coach
  • 13,479 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Johnoco @ Aug 10 2010, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wigans support is more ingrained. The rise in Bulls support contained a lot of casual fans or non RL fans (like me) lots of whom have since left. The core fanbase and general interest in RL has risen quite a bit though, so it's not all doom & gloom.


The crowds we are still getting now 10,000 vs St Helens, 14,000 vs Leeds, 9,500 vs Wigan/HullKR/Castleford, Bradford Northern could only dream of getting those people through the gates twenty years ago.

Like I said in the post two up from this, we have a solid foundation from which to work on now that we have some excellent homegrown young players coming through off the conveyor belt.

Next year is simply massive for the club and it needs everyone behind it for it to work.

#28 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,942 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE (Tommy The C5t @ Aug 10 2010, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've said for the past two month that the club need to do something special to entice the lost support back to Odsal

What we need to do is go back to the tried and tested route that worked 15 years ago by sending Bullman and the players in and around the cities schools and Rugby League clubs (the club needs to get it's self out there, promoting itself and its product once again) and hand out "free kids entry when accompanied with a full paying adult.

There still a recession on, and a lot of families in Bradford (one of the UK's poorest cities) don't have a lot of money to spend on luxuries like going to watch the Bulls up at Odsal so the free kids tickets will make it cheaper for them to come to the game.

The Harris saga and all it's consequences have not helped us one bit, so too has the ongoing saga surrounding odsal stadium which is slowly financially crippling us.


You haven't exactly answered the question.

You have indicated that when Wigan sank there was no recession, as Bradford have sunk in a recession people don't want to spend their hard earned watching the Bulls struggle.

But the question is fundamental to the success of Superleague. We want a league where clubs can go up and come down and go up again like the NRL.

And we want the fans to be along for that ride. We want Superleague to be the draw not winning rugby as not everyone can win.

Wigan people got that point, Bradford people did not.

Do you think Bradford would be on an eleven game losing run if the 11,000 fans in 2006 had simply carried on watching their club??

Wigan have gone from near bottom back to top again.

Why???????


#29 Smog

Smog
  • Coach
  • 188 posts

Posted 10 August 2010 - 11:53 PM

I'm not going to tip a shock Bradford win as that is probably pushing my optimism too little too far.

However, even though the Bulls have come up short against teams who are struggling at the foot of the league in recent weeks and nobody on here seems to be giving them a sniff of winning, this game could be a little different.

This is the first time that next years players (a large percentage of the team) will get to play in front of their new coach. As a direct result of this, I'm expecting a very creditable performance from the Bulls (even though this is likely to come up short of a win).

There may also be some players on the saints side that are keen to impress - so I think it will be a good game.

Time to stick my neck out (just a little):

Saints by 8 and one of Bradford's best performances of the season

or

it could turn out as everybody else seems to think.

#30 Tommy The C5t

Tommy The C5t
  • Coach
  • 13,479 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:22 AM

A very interesting thought there Mr Smog and it's one that has been praying on my mind too.

But despite the extra effort we are bound to see on Friday night, I don't think we'll see Worrincy scoring a brace or Reardon halting Graham in his tracks.

I don't expect a hammering on Friday that's for sure.

Before I call it a night, Mr Parky I'll answer your question in depth tomorrow.



#31 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,942 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 09:23 AM

QUOTE (Tommy The C5t @ Aug 11 2010, 01:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Before I call it a night, Mr Parky I'll answer your question in depth tomorrow.


Thank you Mr Ceefivetee.


#32 Finn

Finn
  • Coach
  • 370 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 09:33 AM

QUOTE (Tommy The C5t @ Aug 10 2010, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1996 St Helens 26-20 Bradford, Att: 10,010, Ref: S Cummings
1997 St Helens 20-38 Bradford, Att: 10,277, Ref: S Cummings
1998 St Helens 33-25 Bradford, Att: 6,955, Ref: S Cummings
1998 St Helens 46-24 Bradford, Att: 8,973, Ref: S Cummings
1999 St Helens 58-14 Bradford, Att: 15,042, Ref: R Smith
1999 St Helens 25-16 Bradford, Att: 8,490, Ref: J Connolly
2000 St Helens 10-32 Bradford, Att: 10,128, Ref: S Presley
2000 St Helens 16-11 Bradford, Att: 8,864, Ref: R Smith
2001 St Helens 38-26 Bradford, Att: 10,428, Ref: R Connolly
2002 St Helens 34-26 Bradford, Att: 11,316, Ref: R Connolly
2002 St Helens 26-28 Bradford, Att: 8,904, Ref: R Smith
2003 St Helens 46-22 Bradford, Att: 12,714 Ref: I Smith
2003 St Helens 18-22 Bradford, Att: 9,642, Ref: R Smith
2004 St Helens 35-30 Bradford, Att: 11,609, Ref: R Silverwood
2005 St Helens 34-27 Bradford, Att: 13,488, Ref: R Silverwood
2005 St Helens 18-32 Bradford, Att:10,102, Ref: A Klein
2005 St Helens 18-23 Bradford, Att: 15,741, Ref: K Kirkpatrick
2006 St Helens 38-16 Bradford, Att: 9,786, Ref: A Klein
2006 St Helens 42-18 Bradford, Att: 6,480, Ref: K Kirkpatrick
2007 St Helens 34-22 Bradford, Att: 9,417, Ref: R Silverwood
2008 St Helens 58-20 Bradford, Att: 10,692, Ref R Silverwood
2009 St Helens 30-34 Bradford, Att: 10,156, Ref R Silverwood [/i]


Some wildly fluctuating crowds.
Do the Bradford fans still refuse to travel to Saints after the weakened team episodes?


#33 Amber Avenger

Amber Avenger
  • Coach
  • 5,697 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:00 AM

Anyone else getting a strong sense of deja vu? We must have this conversation about Bradford every single week!

Incidentally does anyone else know of any big clubs in RL whose crowds didn't go down during a fall from grace except Wigan - especially in the recent past? Genuine question, because I bet Bradford aren't an exception! Johnoco has hit the nail on the head about this topic - and it's something I've mentioned time and time again, but it's like banging your head against a brick wall.

Just to keep it on topic - Saints by 30
SQL Honours
Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009
CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

#34 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,942 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 10:38 AM

QUOTE (Amber Avenger @ Aug 11 2010, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyone else getting a strong sense of deja vu? We must have this conversation about Bradford every single week!

Incidentally does anyone else know of any big clubs in RL whose crowds didn't go down during a fall from grace except Wigan - especially in the recent past? Genuine question, because I bet Bradford aren't an exception! Johnoco has hit the nail on the head about this topic - and it's something I've mentioned time and time again, but it's like banging your head against a brick wall.

Just to keep it on topic - Saints by 30


Leeds held a 13,000 average through a number of years of early SL failure.

Hull built from 6,000 into double figures and stayed there before their limited successes, They are staying up there during a not so good period (OK they are fourth now) and a few inept performances.

Castlefords 6,000 core stuck rigidly with them in relegation into the NL's and back.

It's not a go at Bradford, it's trying to work out how to get a crowd to stick wether you are winning or losing.

Very important if SL is to be a success.


#35 Tommy The C5t

Tommy The C5t
  • Coach
  • 13,479 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:05 PM

QUOTE (Finn @ Aug 11 2010, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some wildly fluctuating crowds.
Do the Bradford fans still refuse to travel to Saints after the weakened team episodes?


1996 St Helens 26-20 Bradford, Att: 10,010, Ref: S Cummings
1997 St Helens 20-38 Bradford, Att: 10,277, Ref: S Cummings
1998 St Helens 33-25 Bradford, Att: 6,955, Ref: S Cummings
1998 St Helens 46-24 Bradford, Att: 8,973, Ref: S Cummings
1999 St Helens 58-14 Bradford, Att: 15,042, Ref: R Smith
1999 St Helens 25-16 Bradford, Att: 8,490, Ref: J Connolly
2000 St Helens 10-32 Bradford, Att: 10,128, Ref: S Presley
2000 St Helens 16-11 Bradford, Att: 8,864, Ref: R Smith
2001 St Helens 38-26 Bradford, Att: 10,428, Ref: R Connolly
2002 St Helens 34-26 Bradford, Att: 11,316, Ref: R Connolly
2002 St Helens 26-28 Bradford, Att: 8,904, Ref: R Smith
2003 St Helens 46-22 Bradford, Att: 12,714 Ref: I Smith
2003 St Helens 18-22 Bradford, Att: 9,642, Ref: R Smith
2004 St Helens 35-30 Bradford, Att: 11,609, Ref: R Silverwood
2005 St Helens 34-27 Bradford, Att: 13,488, Ref: R Silverwood
2005 St Helens 18-32 Bradford, Att:10,102, Ref: A Klein
2005 St Helens 18-23 Bradford, Att: 15,741, Ref: K Kirkpatrick
2006 St Helens 38-16 Bradford, Att: 9,786, Ref: A Klein
2006 St Helens 42-18 Bradford, Att: 6,480, Ref: K Kirkpatrick
2007 St Helens 34-22 Bradford, Att: 9,417, Ref: R Silverwood
2008 St Helens 58-20 Bradford, Att: 10,692, Ref R Silverwood
2009 St Helens 30-34 Bradford, Att: 10,156, Ref R Silverwood

The ones in bold are either Play-Off or Challenege Cup games.



#36 Tommy The C5t

Tommy The C5t
  • Coach
  • 13,479 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:08 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Aug 11 2010, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Leeds held a 13,000 average through a number of years of early SL failure.
Hull built from 6,000 into double figures and stayed there before their limited successes, They are staying up there during a not so good period (OK they are fourth now) and a few inept performances.

Castlefords 6,000 core stuck rigidly with them in relegation into the NL's and back.

It's not a go at Bradford, it's trying to work out how to get a crowd to stick wether you are winning or losing.

Very important if SL is to be a success.


I think you better go check that figure again because in the early days of Super League Leeds were getting 6,000/7,000 in at Headingley for the visits of St Helens, Castleford, Warrington etc.

#37 Amber Avenger

Amber Avenger
  • Coach
  • 5,697 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:21 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Aug 11 2010, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Leeds held a 13,000 average through a number of years of early SL failure.

Hull built from 6,000 into double figures and stayed there before their limited successes, They are staying up there during a not so good period (OK they are fourth now) and a few inept performances.

Castlefords 6,000 core stuck rigidly with them in relegation into the NL's and back.

It's not a go at Bradford, it's trying to work out how to get a crowd to stick wether you are winning or losing.

Very important if SL is to be a success.


Not really the same (comparative) fall from grace in any of these cases as the Bulls though I would say. Don't get me wrong, I'm not all "woe is me" about it, but the rise to the top in Bradford's case was so meteoric, as was the fall. Even in Cas's case which is about as close a comparison out of those three as you are likely to get - they were never winning trophies etc. They have always been one of the comps middle of the road teams - tearing it up and threatening the playoffs one year, mid table mediocrity the next. As such, I'd think the crowds wouldn't have particularly significantly risen or fallen over the years.

I suppose the main difference is that a lot of the Bulls support went from expecting a lot in the trophy cabinet to getting nothing pretty quickly - which is why I suppose is why the Wigan comparison is brought up. However this again brings the point back round the fact Wigan is RL through and through and Bradford a city completely apathetic. I'm not saying it doesn't need addressing - it's far easier to point out problems than solve them as the Bulls already know - but retaining the level of support Wigan did should be an aspiration, sure, but using it as a model beat by beat for the Bulls will see it fall down instantly because at the heart of it the general public in Bradford don't care as much about RL as Wigan do.

Edited by Amber Avenger, 11 August 2010 - 12:25 PM.

SQL Honours
Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009
CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

#38 Tommy The C5t

Tommy The C5t
  • Coach
  • 13,479 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE (Amber Avenger @ Aug 11 2010, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not really the same (comparative) fall from grace in any of these cases as the Bulls though I would say. Don't get me wrong, I'm not all "woe is me" about it, but the rise to the top in Bradford's case was so meteoric, as was the fall. Even in Cas's case which is about as close a comparison out of those three as you are likely to get - they were never winning trophies etc. They have always been one of the comps middle of the road teams - tearing it up and threatening the playoffs one year, mid table mediocrity the next. As such, I'd think the crowds wouldn't have particularly significantly risen or fallen over the years.

I suppose the main difference is that a lot of the Bulls support went from expecting a lot in the trophy cabinet to getting nothing pretty quickly - which is why I suppose is why the Wigan comparison is brought up. However this again brings the point back round the fact Wigan is RL through and through and Bradford a city completely apathetic. I'm not saying it doesn't need addressing - it's far easier to point out problems than solve them as the Bulls already know - but retaining the level of support Wigan did should be an aspiration, sure, but using it as a model beat by beat for the Bulls will see it fall down instantly because at the heart of it the general public in Bradford don't care as much about RL as Wigan do.


This should be fun to watch tonight --> http://www.skysports...6304208,00.html

#39 Errol Stock

Errol Stock
  • Coach
  • 484 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:47 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Aug 11 2010, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Leeds held a 13,000 average through a number of years of early SL failure.

Hull built from 6,000 into double figures and stayed there before their limited successes, They are staying up there during a not so good period (OK they are fourth now) and a few inept performances.

Castlefords 6,000 core stuck rigidly with them in relegation into the NL's and back.

It's not a go at Bradford, it's trying to work out how to get a crowd to stick wether you are winning or losing.

Very important if SL is to be a success.


I am a Bradfordian (rarely admit this in public) - so what I am about to say may annoy my fellow citizens ...

Bradford folk are fickle, rigid, set in their ways and dont accept change, they are happier moaning about "stuff" than being positive and they certainly do not change habits of a lifetime (armchair critical supporters) - in a sentence - a general stereotypical summary.

However, bearing this in mind - what the Bulls achieved at the time was all the more remarkable - a view I have held since the gaps on the terraces got filled (and emptied again).

I was so annoyed that all the hard work was being frittered away that I wrote & met Mr Hood in 2006 - and since then it got worse! I also wrote to Wigan at the time - who were losing games but attendances were rising.

ATEOTD - Wigan had a plan, they stuck to the plan, they moved to a great new stadium, they found the right chairman and they found the right coach - add to that the people of Wigan being if a different ilk to Bradford - and you have what you have at Wigan.

Bradford had a plan, they stuck to the plan but it wasn't as good, we continue to play in a depression inducing hole,the chairman is the only one who wants the job and we backed the wrong coach - add to that the fickle Bradford folk - and you have what you have at Bradford.

Hope this answers at least one question!

Mick - this thread needs re-titling now!



#40 Tommy The C5t

Tommy The C5t
  • Coach
  • 13,479 posts

Posted 11 August 2010 - 12:56 PM

QUOTE (Errol Stock @ Aug 11 2010, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mick - this thread needs re-titling now!


Agree but I've set the bookmark now to my phone so don't really want to go to all the trouble of setting a new one to a new thread.

Good post there Errol and what you say about Bradfordians being set in their ways is 100% true.

I only have to look at my family to see this, not one of us ever had a car from both my mum/dad side of the family.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users