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Double movement.


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#1 Old Frightful

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 08:50 AM

A few of us have been discussing this law on the Wire V Hull thread here and we ain't sure what the definitive answer is.

The question is, if you're tackled and sliding towards the line, your elbow already having come into contact with the ground, are you able to lift your arm to put the ball down as you're approaching the line? If your momentum is stopped, obviously it would be deemed a double movement but if you're still sliding towards the line, is this negated due to momentum?

Answers on a postcard please, or here would be preferable.

(Not a sour grapes thing from me BTW, both myself and Dave T. feel Westwood's try should have been ruled out but Ullman feels it was right to be awarded. So there!)


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#2 1976PMJwires

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 09:01 AM

QUOTE (Old Frightful @ Aug 22 2010, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A few of us have been discussing this law on the Wire V Hull thread here and we ain't sure what the definitive answer is.

The question is, if you're tackled and sliding towards the line, your elbow already having come into contact with the ground, are you able to lift your arm to put the ball down as you're approaching the line? If your momentum is stopped, obviously it would be deemed a double movement but if you're still sliding towards the line, is this negated due to momentum?

Answers on a postcard please, or here would be preferable.

(Not a sour grapes thing from me BTW, both myself and Dave T. feel Westwood's try should have been ruled out but Ullman feels it was right to be awarded. So there!)



OF, once the ball or arm touch the ground the tackle is complete, you can not lift your arm, thats the double movement.

If your sliding in "the arm" must still be on the ground, on occasions tries have been given when a bounce (double movement for mine wink.gif ) arm / body over the line.



Westwood was lucky, that was CLEAR double movement, cheating for mine tongue.gif

#3 deluded pom?

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 09:24 AM

I'd agree with 76. If the arm is deliberately lifted then that's a DM. If the momentum of the tackle causes the player to bounce over the line and there's no obvious attempt to move the arm deliberately then that's a try for mine (goes into Stevo mode) wink.gif If the player is sliding over the line then the ball (IMO) has to remain in contact with the ground for the try to be awarded. I've not had the chance to see Westwood's "try" yet so can't comment on that incident.

Edited by deluded pom?, 22 August 2010 - 09:52 AM.

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#4 Derwent

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 09:39 AM

QUOTE (Old Frightful @ Aug 22 2010, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A few of us have been discussing this law on the Wire V Hull thread here and we ain't sure what the definitive answer is.

The question is, if you're tackled and sliding towards the line, your elbow already having come into contact with the ground, are you able to lift your arm to put the ball down as you're approaching the line? If your momentum is stopped, obviously it would be deemed a double movement but if you're still sliding towards the line, is this negated due to momentum?

Answers on a postcard please, or here would be preferable.

(Not a sour grapes thing from me BTW, both myself and Dave T. feel Westwood's try should have been ruled out but Ullman feels it was right to be awarded. So there!)


You need to take 2 of the laws of the game in conjunction with each other.

Firstly, the laws of the game state that a try should be awarded where....

a tackled player’s momentum carries him into the opponents’ in-goal where he grounds the ball even if the ball has first touched the ground in the field of play but provided that when the ball crosses the goal line the player is not in touch or touch in-goal or on or over the dead ball line

and secondly the laws of the game also state that....

If a tackled player, because of his momentum slides along the ground, the tackle is deemed to have been effected where his slide ends.

Therefore, the tackle is not complete until his sliding momentum has halted and if the momentum takes him into the in-goal then it is a try.

#5 Ullman

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 10:19 AM

QUOTE (Derwent @ Aug 22 2010, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You need to take 2 of the laws of the game in conjunction with each other.

Firstly, the laws of the game state that a try should be awarded where....

a tackled player’s momentum carries him into the opponents’ in-goal where he grounds the ball even if the ball has first touched the ground in the field of play but provided that when the ball crosses the goal line the player is not in touch or touch in-goal or on or over the dead ball line

and secondly the laws of the game also state that....

If a tackled player, because of his momentum slides along the ground, the tackle is deemed to have been effected where his slide ends.

Therefore, the tackle is not complete until his sliding momentum has halted and if the momentum takes him into the in-goal then it is a try.

Cheers for that. I think that suggests the Westwood try was legitimate.

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#6 Old Frightful

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:11 AM

QUOTE (Ullman @ Aug 22 2010, 11:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cheers for that. I think that suggests the Westwood try was legitimate.

It would seem so after reading that. There's always a first time I suppose. Cheers Derwent mate.

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#7 HappyDave

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:20 AM

I haven't seen the try either but it sounds like that law may need to be re-thought as surely if the ball hits the ground in-field then the player lifts it off the ground to place it over the tryline it should be classified as a double movement even with momentum?

Edited by HappyDave, 22 August 2010 - 11:24 AM.

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#8 dallymessenger

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE (Old Frightful @ Aug 22 2010, 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A few of us have been discussing this law on the Wire V Hull thread here and we ain't sure what the definitive answer is.

The question is, if you're tackled and sliding towards the line, your elbow already having come into contact with the ground, are you able to lift your arm to put the ball down as you're approaching the line? If your momentum is stopped, obviously it would be deemed a double movement but if you're still sliding towards the line, is this negated due to momentum?

Answers on a postcard please, or here would be preferable.

(Not a sour grapes thing from me BTW, both myself and Dave T. feel Westwood's try should have been ruled out but Ullman feels it was right to be awarded. So there!)


the arm carrying the ball cant promote the ball forward. basically the arm carrying the ball cant move and the body has to end over the try line and then you can put it down.

#9 steef

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 12:08 PM

it was a tight call, if i were a wire and it'd been chalked off i'd have been livid but equally if I were a FC fan I'd be livid that it had been given.
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#10 Old Frightful

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:16 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 22 2010, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the arm carrying the ball cant promote the ball forward. basically the arm carrying the ball cant move and the body has to end over the try line and then you can put it down.

That's what I thought, but having read Derwent's post, the tackle's not complete until the players momentum is stopped so he can do what he likes if that's the rule. Still unconvinced.

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#11 amh

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:22 PM

QUOTE (Old Frightful @ Aug 22 2010, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's what I thought, but having read Derwent's post, the tackle's not complete until the players momentum is stopped so he can do what he likes if that's the rule. Still unconvinced.

Me neither, although I know nowt...just sounds a bit wrong that you can have the ball carrying arm/hand on the floor, bounce it basketball style, recapture it ...but as long as you're still sliding, you can lift your arm and ground the ball over the whitewash

Maybe we should invest in more fairy liquid and plastic grass pitches.....100m possible then

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#12 3owls

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 10:47 PM

Danny Mcguire scored a similar try against Hull k r that was chalked off by the video ref. Stuart cummins later admitted the try should have been awarded, in that respect you'd have to say that the halting of momentum is more of an issue than the lifting of the arm, derwents post pretty much summed it up.

#13 Les Tonks Sidestep

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:19 PM

QUOTE (3owls @ Aug 22 2010, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Danny Mcguire scored a similar try against Hull k r that was chalked off by the video ref. Stuart cummins later admitted the try should have been awarded, in that respect you'd have to say that the halting of momentum is more of an issue than the lifting of the arm, derwents post pretty much summed it up.


Only because he'd not long since changed the interpretation of the rule by defending a similar try being given by the video ref even though for the past 100 years or so momentum didn't come into it. Beforehand it was a case of if you (deliberatley) lifted your arm after it had touched the floor it was no try whether you slid over or not.

#14 callig

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:01 AM

The rule is designed to stop players who are clearly short of the line when they're tackled stretching out their arm to advance the ball over the line. Westwoods was clearly a try as his whole body ends up in the in goal. Yeah his arm bounced up off the ground and he may have even moved his arm slightly but that is a try every day of the week. I find it frustrating when the likes of Stevo attempt to do a forensic examination of every try to find an element of controversy when if you were to apply the rule in the spirit it is meant to be applied there is none at all.

#15 dallymessenger

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:20 AM

QUOTE (Old Frightful @ Aug 22 2010, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's what I thought, but having read Derwent's post, the tackle's not complete until the players momentum is stopped so he can do what he likes if that's the rule. Still unconvinced.


true on the momentum but the arm carrying the ball better not move.

even if momentum takes you over the line, if the arm carrying the ball touches the ground then bounces forward and you move it in the process of going over the line with momentum it will be called no try. basically the arm has to stay fixed as your body bounces over the line. move it and its double movement

its a dumb rule imo, it should just be when momentum stops the tackler

#16 deluded pom?

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:09 AM

QUOTE (3owls @ Aug 22 2010, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Danny Mcguire scored a similar try against Hull k r that was chalked off by the video ref. Stuart cummins later admitted the try should have been awarded, in that respect you'd have to say that the halting of momentum is more of an issue than the lifting of the arm, derwents post pretty much summed it up.


Having seen that incident I'd have gone with no try and I'm a Hull supporter! For me, McGuire promoted the ball.

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#17 Dave T

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:50 AM

So I think the answer to the question is 'no, we can't clear it up!!!' biggrin.gif

#18 deluded pom?

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Aug 23 2010, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So I think the answer to the question is 'no, we can't clear it up!!!' biggrin.gif



Not for the first time and I'm sure not for the last time Dave. wink.gif

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