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Is 4th better than 5th?


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#41 JWAD

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:00 AM

QUOTE (Lee @ Aug 26 2010, 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As opposed to them having the 2nd week off anyway if they win

There shouldn't be a week out.
Its a play-off. A big-deal. And in the eyes of the franchise in question, a possible three rounds of guaranteed revenue in all those areas I pointed out.

#42 Stevo

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE (JWAD @ Aug 26 2010, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There shouldn't be a week out.
Its a play-off. A big-deal. And in the eyes of the franchise in question, a possible three rounds of guaranteed revenue in all those areas I pointed out.


Franchise? Which franchises will be in the play-offs?
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#43 JWAD

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:43 AM

QUOTE (Stevo @ Aug 26 2010, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Franchise? Which franchises will be in the play-offs?

Those teams aren't franchises? I was under the impression they were.

#44 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:24 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Aug 26 2010, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
whats the advantage of finnishing higher.. one off games anyone can beat anyone.. the bonus of finishing in the top 4 is a second bite of hte cherry in the present format which is good.. straight knock out means a poor decision etc could kill off the best team in one swoop... 7th can beat 2nd in any game and does, but for 2nd to mean anything you need a second bite of the cherry..

1 - You get a home game and an easier tie.
2 - You have the opportunity for a second bite of the cherry (rather than just given one). If 2nd wins, they'll get two bites of the cherry. If 2nd lose and 3rd win, they'll get two bites of the cherry. If 2nd and 3rd lose and 4th win, they'll get two bites of the cherry. Even 5th could get it.

I think it's good to reward those finishing higher in the table. But I think the team at the top should get the bigger advantage between positions (i.e. there's not much difference between finishing 1st and 2nd, but there's a huge advantage between 4th and 5th).
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#45 RP London

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:55 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Aug 26 2010, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1 - You get a home game and an easier tie.
2 - You have the opportunity for a second bite of the cherry (rather than just given one). If 2nd wins, they'll get two bites of the cherry. If 2nd lose and 3rd win, they'll get two bites of the cherry. If 2nd and 3rd lose and 4th win, they'll get two bites of the cherry. Even 5th could get it.

I think it's good to reward those finishing higher in the table. But I think the team at the top should get the bigger advantage between positions (i.e. there's not much difference between finishing 1st and 2nd, but there's a huge advantage between 4th and 5th).


2- erm no you dont read your week 1 again

Week 1

1st has bye to Week two
A) 2nd vs 7th (loser out)
3rd vs 6th (loser out)
C) 4th vs 5th (loser out)

loser out.. 2nd loses to 7th they are out.. there is no second bite of the cherry..

#46 marklaspalmas

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:59 PM

Top six is ideal for a 14 team comp.

Five playoff games over 3 weeks before the GF should be properly promoted, played to full houses, rather than the decent 10k ish crowds they get now.

#47 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 01:37 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Aug 26 2010, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
2- erm no you dont read your week 1 again

Week 1

1st has bye to Week two
A) 2nd vs 7th (loser out)
3rd vs 6th (loser out)
C) 4th vs 5th (loser out)

loser out.. 2nd loses to 7th they are out.. there is no second bite of the cherry..

2 - erm, yes they do. Read the rest of it...

If 2nd win, they play first in week two. If they lose week two, they play the best of the rest in week three.
No team in the first week gets a second go if they lose, granted. But if they win, they win not only a straight game to the Grand Final, but also a second bite if they lose.
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#48 RP London

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Aug 26 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
2 - erm, yes they do. Read the rest of it...

If 2nd win, they play first in week two. If they lose week two, they play the best of the rest in week three.
No team in the first week gets a second go if they lose, granted. But if they win, they win not only a straight game to the Grand Final, but also a second bite if they lose.


erm thats the point i'm making.. the second bite comes from their first match.. one off match and 7th goes through ahead of 2nd without a 2nd chance.. no dont think thats very good..

and i dont think you should get a second bite later on.. the only reason you have it is becuase of the large gap between 2nd and 7th and the possible upsets in one off matches..

2nd gets no added advantage if they are out in the first round.. the advantage is a first round cock up reprisal..

Edited by RP London, 26 August 2010 - 01:55 PM.


#49 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 03:20 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Aug 26 2010, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
erm thats the point i'm making.. the second bite comes from their first match.. one off match and 7th goes through ahead of 2nd without a 2nd chance.. no dont think thats very good..

and i dont think you should get a second bite later on.. the only reason you have it is becuase of the large gap between 2nd and 7th and the possible upsets in one off matches..

2nd gets no added advantage if they are out in the first round.. the advantage is a first round cock up reprisal..

I do see what you're saying, but it's the only way you can really get it to work with seven teams. It's essentially just the same as the Top Six playoffs, but with an extra game in week one.

In the NRL playoffs, 3rd and 4th could be out in the first week. They could also get a second bite. It just totally depends on the results around them. Same sort of thing in this system.
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#50 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 03:29 PM

4th is clearly better than 5th for the simple fact that they get a second bite of the cherry and at home.

The 'roll on' idea doesn't work as it can be easily countered by an equally likely alternative. Say Leeds finish 4th and narrowly lose to Wigan and then go on to play Hull at home who have easily beaten the Crusaders. Who is better prepared in the Leeds Hull game?

The RFL should resort back to 6th and I think most people would agree with that. I think they are keeping it because they are worried about clubs having nothing to play for with the taking away of promotion and relegation. However I don't think the race for 8th stirs up particularly much excitement because the chances of winning are so remote and most people realise that 8th isn't a great achievement.

#51 TheObserver

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 03:54 AM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Aug 26 2010, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bit of flawed system.


No system is perfect, but the straight knockout system as above would still reward teams for finishing higher on the table, give 1st place a week off and put them one game away from the final, but also allow the finals finish more quickly, mean that elite national team players play potentially one game less, and allow the test players more rest/preparation before the test season.

In playoffs, teams will be eliminated eventually. Consider the many other competitions that use a straight knockout and do not give a second chance:
* World Cups in most sports (RL, RU, soccer)
* the Challenge Cup
* English Soccer's FA Cup Finals
* UEFA's Champions League
* NFL's finals
* All the major professional RU competitions use a Shaughnessy Playoff system i.e. a Top 4 straight knockout, such as English RU Premiership (a top 4 only), Celtic League Rugby (a Top 4 only), France's Top 14 (Top 6 only by straight knockout), Japan's Top League (Top 4) European Cup (finals are a knockout, with no home ground advantage) and the Super 14 (this will move to a top 6 straight knockout when the competition expands to 15 teams).

QUOTE
Why do 4/5th have to play first? In week one, 7th could beat 2nd, and 6th could beat 3rd. Then in your system, 6th would play 7th and 1st would play 4/5th? 6th and 7th get an easier game? 4/5th get shafted?


You make a fair point. The idea was to give higher places reward for finishing higher, particularly to reward the league leaders for finishing first. The first reward was the week off in 1st weekend of finals. The second was giving them the best chance of playing a lower ranked team.

So, I guess there would be two choices
a) give 1st the lowest ranked winner (from Week 1) to play. E.g. in your scenario, if 4th beat 5th, but 7th beat 2nd and 6th beat 3rd, then 1st could host 7th, and 4th could play 6th somewhere.
cool.gif allow 1st place the club call - they can choose which Week 1 winner to play. In the aforementioned scenario, they could choose any of 4th, 6th or 7th to play.

QUOTE
And why a neutral venue?


However, the major reason is to maximise the attendance that you can attract to that game, and maximise the standard of the venue, its capacity, and accessibility to the teams involved. Using a neutral venue in later stages of the finals is done here, and its use is justified by the history of what has happened in finals here.

Putting a Preliminary final at the home ground of one of the team would more than likely limit the crowd you can gain. Moving to a neutral venue could increase the crowd significantly, add a lot more interest, more of a finals and big game feel. It's happened here a lot. Also, to give teams more than one shot at a home venue in a finals series is unfair, gives them extra chance to progress to the final.

Edited by TheObserver, 06 September 2010 - 02:17 PM.





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