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Stadia we should use for the 2013 World Cup


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#21 ParisSurtout

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:20 PM

QUOTE (Derwent @ Aug 24 2010, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why could you expect crowds of that size ?

In the 2008 RLWC, a total of 11 out of 18 games (61%) didn't attract crowds of that size. If they couldn't do it in Oz then why would it happen here ?

Are you saying that the ARL didn't market the event properly ?


Yes. There was insufficient publicity, despite the record of Australia previously being beaten by New Zealand in Tri Nations being a good marketing tool.

If you want to know what I regard as proper marketing, see the way the Australian Rugby Union marketed their World Cup in 2003. It was a brilliant job. Unfortunately the CEO of the ARL was and is a man named Geoff Carr, who lacks the intelligence and the will necessary to do the job even half as well as the ARU did. The 2008 rugby league World Cup was given a second rate promotion, and they counted on Queensland (where rugby league is a more powerful and unchallenged sport than in NSW), to carry the burden with limited marketing expenditures.
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#22 ParisSurtout

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:30 PM

Since there is unlikely to be a quarter final round of eight, (given that there are only fourteen nations who will be playing) I would imagine that the pool system is going to be structured in a way to ensure that Australia, New Zealand and England all make the semi-finals.

The real contest of the pool system will be for fourth place.

Thus, if the assumption of some on here is correct, and that no semi-final games will be held outside the UK, and assuming also that England is almost guaranteed a semi-final spot, then my original argument about the virtues of using Wembley for a semi-final remains a sound one. It will guarantee a bigger crowd for the Wembley final than if the England semi-final was only held in the north. The England semi-final should preferably at 2.30 or 3 pm on a Saturday.

The other semi-final that does not involve England should be held at Old Trafford on a Sunday afternoon, the day after the Wembley semi-final --- subject to the RFL's willingness to spend money promoting it all over England.

Edited by ParisSurtout, 24 August 2010 - 02:00 PM.

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#23 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:36 PM

QUOTE (ParisSurtout @ Aug 24 2010, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thus, if the assumption of some on here is coreect, and that no semi-final games will be held outside the UK, then if England is almost guaranteed a semi-final spot, then my argument about the virtues of using Wembley for a semi-final remains a sound one. Preferably at 2.30 or 3 pm on a Saturday.

The other semi-final that does not involve England should be held at Old Trafford on a Sunday afternoon, the day after the Wembley semi-final --- subject to the RFL's willingness to spend money promoting it all over England.

I think it is ridiculous to suggest that we could get anywhere near a decent crowd at Old Trafford for a game not involving England. Even if it was the World Cup Final that England COULD be playing at. To think we'd get a crowd even the third of the size of Old Trafford with the public knowing full well England WON'T be in it because they'll be in the semi final is very very poor judgement.
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#24 RP London

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:42 PM

QUOTE (ParisSurtout @ Aug 24 2010, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Since there is unlikely to be a quarter final round of eight, (given that there are only fourteen nations who will be playing) I would imagine that the pool system is going to be structured in a way to ensure that Australia, New Zealand and England all make the semi-finals.

The real contest of the pool system will be for fourth place.

Thus, if the assumption of some on here is correct, and that no semi-final games will be held outside the UK, and assuming also that England is almost guaranteed a semi-final spot, then my original argument about the virtues of using Wembley for a semi-final remains a sound one. It will guarantee a bigger crowd for the Wembley final than if the England semi-fianl was only held in the north. The England semi-final should preferably at 2.30 or 3 pm on a Saturday.

The other semi-final that does not involve England should be held at Old Trafford on a Sunday afternoon, the day after the Wembley semi-final --- subject to the RFL's willingness to spend money promoting it all over England.


you cannot say the semi involve england gets wembley though as the venues and timetable has to be nailed down before the tournament kicks off

#25 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:48 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Aug 24 2010, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you cannot say the semi involve england gets wembley though as the venues and timetable has to be nailed down before the tournament kicks off

Depends how the format is.

If the format is 4 groups, with the top of each group going into the semi-finals, then you could guarantee England would be in a certain semi-final venue.

This is why I wouldn't suggest using certain stadia at certain points until the format is announced (other than the final being a must at Wembley).
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#26 ParisSurtout

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:51 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Aug 24 2010, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think it is ridiculous to suggest that we could get anywhere near a decent crowd at Old Trafford for a game not involving England. Even if it was the World Cup Final that England COULD be playing at. To think we'd get a crowd even the third of the size of Old Trafford with the public knowing full well England WON'T be in it because they'll be in the semi final is very very poor judgement.


It is not ridiculous if the World Cup is given the buzz that a properly marketed sporting event is given.

It is beyond your ability to imagine this because you are forgetting that I have predicated this all these ground choices on a serious marketing campaign --- something that has not occurred since Nigel Wood became prominent in RFL decisonmaking in 2001. If Richard Lewis is not prepared to go 21st century, and relieve Wood of the status as chief marketing decisionmaker, then everything I have written is pointless.

If England is playing in one semi final at Wembley on a Saturday, and England wins, expect a massive walk up to any northern stadium (including Old Trafford) the next day to see which of Australia, New Zealand, France, Wales etc will be England's opponent the following weekend.

The only sizable alternative to Old Trafford is Elland Road, which fans on here seem not to like going to. Bramall Lane may be too small. The other rugby league stadia (e.g. DW, Galpharm) will definitely be too small.

Edited by ParisSurtout, 24 August 2010 - 01:58 PM.

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#27 ParisSurtout

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE (Saint Toppy @ Aug 24 2010, 02:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shedingly shouldn't be used, 3 sides of the stadium are utter ######, and given the time of year the WC will be played there's a pretty good chance anyone stood at the western end will get pi$$ wet through.


Good point.
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#28 RP London

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:09 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Aug 24 2010, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Depends how the format is.

If the format is 4 groups, with the top of each group going into the semi-finals, then you could guarantee England would be in a certain semi-final venue.

This is why I wouldn't suggest using certain stadia at certain points until the format is announced (other than the final being a must at Wembley).

i would be suprised if they went with 4 groups with the strength of nations and tonkings being a major concern seemingly (not so worried myself).. so would expect it to be similar to last time to be honest.

but i agree format first, venues second.

#29 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:21 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Aug 24 2010, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i would be suprised if they went with 4 groups with the strength of nations and tonkings being a major concern seemingly (not so worried myself).. so would expect it to be similar to last time to be honest.

but i agree format first, venues second.

I have no idea what to expect in all honesty! 14 teams is a weird number to get groups from!
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#30 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:25 PM

QUOTE (ParisSurtout @ Aug 24 2010, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is not ridiculous if the World Cup is given the buzz that a properly marketed sporting event is given.

It is beyond your ability to imagine this because you are forgetting that I have predicated this all these ground choices on a serious marketing campaign --- something that has not occurred since Nigel Wood became prominent in RFL decisonmaking in 2001. If Richard Lewis is not prepared to go 21st century, and relieve Wood of the status as chief marketing decisionmaker, then everything I have written is pointless.

If England is playing in one semi final at Wembley on a Saturday, and England wins, expect a massive walk up to any northern stadium (including Old Trafford) the next day to see which of Australia, New Zealand, France, Wales etc will be England's opponent the following weekend.

The only sizable alternative to Old Trafford is Elland Road, which fans on here seem not to like going to. Bramall Lane may be too small. The other rugby league stadia (e.g. DW, Galpharm) will definitely be too small.

What would you be doing in this serious marketing campaign and how would you be paying for it? What would you do if the people didn't turn up? You've not actually said anything.

The thing is, you've later gone on to say that you would expect a huge walk-up crowd should England win. If they lose, what are you going to do with the less than 20k rattling around OT? It would be a disaster.

So what is this serious marketing campaign you'll be doing?
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#31 HappyDave

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:33 PM

If Old Trafford is too big for a semi-final not containing England the what about the Stadium of Light? Surely if the RFL had special deals for all the semi-pro, Amateur & junior teams in Tyne&Wear, Durham, Teeside, Northumbria, Durham, Cumbria & North Yorkshire & their fans then they could get 30,000+ to watch the Aussies or the Kiwis? Plus it's not that far from the 'heartlands'.

Edited by HappyDave, 24 August 2010 - 04:53 PM.

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#32 HappyDave

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:42 PM

Duplicate post.

Edited by HappyDave, 24 August 2010 - 04:50 PM.

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#33 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:03 PM

QUOTE (HappyDave @ Aug 24 2010, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Old Trafford is too big for a semi-final not containing England the what about the Stadium of Light? Surely if the RFL had special deals for all the semi-pro, Amateur & junior teams in Tyne&Wear, Durham, Teeside, Northumbria, Durham, Cumbria & North Yorkshire & their fans then they could get 30,000+ to watch the Aussies or the Kiwis? Plus it's not that far from the 'heartlands'.

It would be easier to fill Old Trafford than Stadium of Light!. It's about 100 miles away from the heartlands, and there isn't much going on up there RL wise.
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#34 HappyDave

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:20 PM

Ok, fair enough, but ignoring the Gateshead fiasco there seems to actually be a fair amount of semi-pro, amateur & junior RL teams in Cumbria & the North East. If only we could get over RL fan apathy for the International game.
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#35 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:27 PM

QUOTE (HappyDave @ Aug 24 2010, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, fair enough, but ignoring the Gateshead fiasco there seems to actually be a fair amount of semi-pro, amateur & junior RL teams in Cumbria & the North East. If only we could get over RL fan apathy for the International game.

The main RL areas of Cumbria are still about 100 miles away from the Gateshead and the rest of the North East's population centres, so grouping them together is a bit odd.

There is only one semi-pro club in the North East. There are a fair few amateur clubs popping up, but there are much bigger areas that would be much better for a big game than there.

It would be an awful idea to have BOTH semis away from the heartlands anyway. In fact, I think it would be verging on a bad idea to have any away from the heartlands in all honesty.
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#36 Derwent

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:30 PM

QUOTE (HappyDave @ Aug 24 2010, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, fair enough, but ignoring the Gateshead fiasco there seems to actually be a fair amount of semi-pro, amateur & junior RL teams in Cumbria & the North East. If only we could get over RL fan apathy for the International game.



You have inadvertently touched on one of the biggest reasons why we don't get good crowds for internationals. That is, the junior/amateur teams.

It seems beyond the ability of the RFL/Community Game management to make sure that there aren't a full programme of amateur fixtures on the same day as the big RL events.

Every one of those amateur players who is playing on the same saturday as an international etc is a lost potential paying spectator.
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#37 Saint Toppy

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 06:39 AM

How about using the Reebok stadium for the final - 1st class facilities, fairly easy to get to being just 2 minutes off the M61, less than an hours drive from most of the heartland clubs and not so big that it could end up half empty if England dont make it to the final but big enough to accomodate all the fans that probably will attend if they do.

#38 ParisSurtout

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:00 AM

QUOTE (Saint Toppy @ Aug 25 2010, 02:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How about using the Reebok stadium for the final - 1st class facilities, fairly easy to get to being just 2 minutes off the M61, less than an hours drive from most of the heartland clubs and not so big that it could end up half empty if England dont make it to the final but big enough to accomodate all the fans that probably will attend if they do.



Reebok can fit 28,000. Is that big enough for the non-England semi-final?

Edited by ParisSurtout, 25 August 2010 - 09:01 AM.

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#39 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:13 AM

QUOTE (ParisSurtout @ Aug 25 2010, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Reebok can fit 28,000. Is that big enough for the non-England semi-final?

Past RLWC semi finals:

2008:
England vs New Zealand - 26,659
Australia vs Fiji - 15,855

2000:
England vs New Zealand - 16,032
Australia vs Wales - 8,114

1995:
England vs Wales - 30,042
Australia vs New Zealand - 16,608

Is it big enough? Well it was too big for the England semi final in 2000, so I very much doubt its capacity would even nearly be tested without England playing. Only one semi has touched over that capacity, and that's when Wales were fairly good.

But with your superior marketing campaign (which you have yet to enlighten us on), I don't think there are stadia big enough to hold the RLWC13!
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#40 HappyDave

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:07 AM

Wellsy, we're not RFL Marketeers it's up to them to build the profile of RL over the next 3 years, to get the media onside & really Market the RLWC 2013 well to get as many RL fans going to it as possible. Must aim higher. biggrin.gif
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