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Sticking at it in wrexham


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#61 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:45 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 25 2010, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Australia 1908
PNG
France 1933


Why don't you add 1895 to it while your at it?

Aside from the fact that none of these were 'top down expansion' in anything like the way that we see it today and were in fact more akin to grassroots expansion, especially in the case of France. Amateur clubs springing up all over the place that developed a vibrant local competition.



#62 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:47 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 25 2010, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
salford finished first, Crusaders 2nd in the NL1 the year franchising was being decided. as two teams were being admitted into SL, the RFL just let in teams 1 and 2.

hunslet arent an expansion club so they arent worth taking a risk on.

as ive said before, you cant compare expansion teams with heartland teams.


What has this got to do with bottom up expansion?

I'm not for one second suggesting Hunslet should be included but your suggesting that Crusaders were given 3 years to prepare for Super League. I've pointed out they are in almost exactly the same situation as Crusaders were in less than a year before the licensing decision. How well do you think you would go, how prepared for Super League are Hunslet right now?

#63 Mumby Magic

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:49 AM

Is it possible you two can bring this back to being constructive or PM each other with your disagreements? huh.gif

Edited by Mumby Magic, 25 August 2010 - 10:49 AM.

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#64 Bob8

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:49 AM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 25 2010, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How many people played 1 hour of RL in North Wales last year?

Has there ever been a successful example of top down expansion in an area that has no RL played there?


I am certainly closer to your way of thinking. Generally, top down can only work with huge financial and media backing, and even then if has to be done very wisely (as we see with the failure of gridiron).

However, bottom-up is not practical either. In the last fifty years, I can think of few examples of that working.

The best examples we do have are of new amateur clubs, but no-one would really have identified Hemel Hempstead or Croydon, it just happened the right people were there at the right time for the right length of time. The expansion of the amateur game has been led by accepting what opportunities arise. This is far from ideal, but with little money and little exposure, there is also little choice. It therefore seems that Wrexham at the moment is the most exciting opportunity, albeit also by default.

Dally, A tour of non-rugby league areas would be an eye opener for you. Few people know rugby league exists and those that do will be stunned to learn that it i played in Australia.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#65 dallymessenger

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:49 AM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 25 2010, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why don't you add 1895 to it while your at it?

Aside from the fact that none of these were 'top down expansion' in anything like the way that we see it today and were in fact more akin to grassroots expansion, especially in the case of France. Amateur clubs springing up all over the place that developed a vibrant local competition.


so well just have to wait another 85 years for a club to set up grassroots, find backers, start off in division 2, get promoted to the championship win the championship, get crowds of 5000 etc etc etc?

i wish the AFL took your ideas on expansion, theyd be still in melbourne if they did

#66 dallymessenger

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:53 AM

QUOTE (Bob8 @ Aug 25 2010, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am certainly closer to your way of thinking. Generally, top down can only work with huge financial and media backing, and even then if has to be done very wisely (as we see with the failure of gridiron).


thats exactly what the RFl should be doing with its expansion clubs

each expansion club should get an additional 500,000 pounds pa from the TV money to help them financially and the RFL should spend something like 100,000 + pounds on advertising the sport in the expansion clubs country.

if you arent going to back expansion 100% then its not worth doing it

what the RFL has always done in the past re. expansion is to do it half baked and improperly funded, and when it doesnt work everyone just concludes expansion is doomed to failure

there are lots of examples of succesful expansion around the world

Edited by dallymessenger, 25 August 2010 - 10:54 AM.


#67 Bob8

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 25 2010, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
thats exactly what the RFl should be doing with its expansion clubs

each expansion club should get an additional 500,000 pounds pa from the TV money to help them financially and the RFL should spend something like 100,000 + pounds on advertising the sport in the expansion clubs country.

if you arent going to back expansion 100% then its not worth doing it

what the RFL has always done is do expansion half baked and improperly funded and when it doesnt work everyone just concludes expansion is doomed to failure

there are lots of examples of succesful expansion around the world


There would be the question of where this half million should be taken from. I would also question whether than minor level of investment would make much different. To raise the exposure to approximate rugby union, we would have to spend many 100,000,000's.

There are not the resources for novel top down expansion, but where the opportunity arises (such as with Wrexham) then it does indeed require the political will, which was certainly missing in the case of Gateshead. The example of Gateshead is one where I would certainly agree with you.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#68 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:59 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 25 2010, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
so well just have to wait another 85 years for a club to set up grassroots, find backers, start off in division 2, get promoted to the championship win the championship, get crowds of 5000 etc etc etc?

i wish the AFL took your ideas on expansion, theyd be still in melbourne if they did


Or we'll carry on with your opinion and await our first success of top down expansion.

I've never said anything like what you're saying at the beginning, that's putting words in my mouth. The RFL are going the right way about it in putting more money into the grassroots, getting people actually playing the game there. Making people aware of the game before you stick a club in at the top level.

Wrexham have done some good things, but they are much better placed for the 4 years that CC had in Bridgend, for instance they can play actual Welsh players, they actually have an Academy team full of young Welsh kids. They are 4 years ahead of where they would have been without CC and their Championship years. When you plonk a team down from nowhere you don't have any of this and have to spend time getting it right which you often don't have.

#69 Mumby Magic

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:02 AM

QUOTE (Mumby Magic @ Aug 25 2010, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is it possible you two can bring this back to being constructive or PM each other with your disagreements? huh.gif

ohmy.gif

Lilly, Jacob and Isaac, what my life is about. Although our route through life is not how it should be, I am a blessed man.


#70 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:05 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 25 2010, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
there are lots of examples of succesful expansion around the world


Care to name an example where a relatively minor sport with little money or exposure has managed to take off and establish itself through top level expansion? The only example I can think of remotely linked to what you're saying is the Belfast Giants Ice Hockey. There are many, many more examples that go the other way.

I'll tell you one, the AFL has managed to get 25,000 people playing the game in SA. Great expansion, but funnily enough there isn't an AFL franchise yet.

Look at the A-League which you probably heavily deride. Awareness of Football is massive in Australia and it is the most played sport. Yet just a few years in of a massive relaunch with many new franchises, it is really struggling with crowds dropping at an alarming rate after initial highs. They plonked a team in the Gold Coast that struggle to get a few thousand to a game.

#71 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (Mumby Magic @ Aug 25 2010, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is it possible you two can bring this back to being constructive or PM each other with your disagreements? huh.gif


It amazes me what some people expect from a discussion board.

#72 Cofi

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:12 AM

Maximus Decimus:

Do you honestly want the Crusaders to succeed in Wrexham? Because you disagree with the way the club was allowed into the competition or because you disagree with the way the game has been and is being developed in Wales, you would, in all honesty, prefer that the Crusaders fail. Right?

A Wrexham failure would prove that you were right all along on the way that the game ought to be organised and developed.

I thought that an average attendance of 5000 was really positive news given the circumstances back in January but obviously not!

Have you been to Wrexham to see a game? I know it's not your club but seeing that you have an interest in the club's future and seeing that it isn't far from Widnes, I'd suggest that you come along to the game against Hull KR and see for yourself that there are many fans who share the sentiments of the new supporter quoted by Jannerboyuk in his original post.

#73 dallymessenger

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:19 AM

QUOTE (Bob8 @ Aug 25 2010, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There would be the question of where this half million should be taken from. I would also question whether than minor level of investment would make much different. To raise the exposure to approximate rugby union, we would have to spend many 100,000,000's.

There are not the resources for novel top down expansion, but where the opportunity arises (such as with Wrexham) then it does indeed require the political will, which was certainly missing in the case of Gateshead. The example of Gateshead is one where I would certainly agree with you.


take the money from the other clubs, take it from other RFL revenues.

but expansion clubs need preferential financial treatment.

earlier on someone said wrexham had limited funds to spend on marketing games.

give expansion clubs more money, give them 10 years or so to work.

if it fails then at least we know its not through lack of trying



#74 dallymessenger

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:21 AM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 25 2010, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It amazes me what some people expect from a discussion board.


more so that people bother posting in a thread they arent interested in

this is a healthy debate without any personal abuse.



#75 Mumby Magic

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:32 AM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It amazes me what some people expect from a discussion board.


It's one thing having a discussion and it's another thing going over the same arguement without any progress and appearing to squabble endlessly. Other posters are making points but you two seem to be overlooking most of this to continue your disagreement.

Lilly, Jacob and Isaac, what my life is about. Although our route through life is not how it should be, I am a blessed man.


#76 Mumby Magic

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 25 2010, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
more so that people bother posting in a thread they arent interested in

this is a healthy debate without any personal abuse.


Excuse me this proves my point just made to Maximus I have contributed to this thread and am very interested in this topic. If you looked past you"healty deabte" you would have noticed this.

Lilly, Jacob and Isaac, what my life is about. Although our route through life is not how it should be, I am a blessed man.


#77 frenzarin

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Mumby Magic @ Aug 25 2010, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's one thing having a discussion and it's another thing going over the same arguement without any progress and appearing to squabble endlessly. Other posters are making points but you two seem to be overlooking most of this to continue your disagreement.

I'd like to point out that a population of approx 700,000 and no pro rugby and no league football existing in N. Wales, makes the expansion a worthwhile gamble. At the saints game I took two people, who'd never seen a live game of RL, even after losing, one has commited to being a season ticket holder for next season,the other deffo coming to the KR game. Little by little this expansionism is working, with 4000 more RL fans in N.Wales than before,and numerous schools etc starting to play the game.IMO all this makes sticking with N.Wales a positive option. As for the scorpions, many of us in wrexham hope this succeeds, and many young welsh players get their break with crus in SL. So much so that I've even contributed to sponsoring a scorpions game in S. Wales. So hopefully most negativity to this topic can be put to bed,and all get behind the RFL and make Wrexham and the Crusaders the success that RL needs.

#78 Mumby Magic

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:06 PM

QUOTE (frenzarin @ Aug 25 2010, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd like to point out that a population of approx 700,000 and no pro rugby and no league football existing in N. Wales, makes the expansion a worthwhile gamble. At the saints game I took two people, who'd never seen a live game of RL, even after losing, one has commited to being a season ticket holder for next season,the other deffo coming to the KR game. Little by little this expansionism is working, with 4000 more RL fans in N.Wales than before,and numerous schools etc starting to play the game.IMO all this makes sticking with N.Wales a positive option. As for the scorpions, many of us in wrexham hope this succeeds, and many young welsh players get their break with crus in SL. So much so that I've even contributed to sponsoring a scorpions game in S. Wales. So hopefully most negativity to this topic can be put to bed,and all get behind the RFL and make Wrexham and the Crusaders the success that RL needs.


I'm with you all the way.

Lilly, Jacob and Isaac, what my life is about. Although our route through life is not how it should be, I am a blessed man.


#79 Cofi

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:09 PM

QUOTE (frenzarin @ Aug 25 2010, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd like to point out that a population of approx 700,000 and no pro rugby and no league football existing in N. Wales, makes the expansion a worthwhile gamble. At the saints game I took two people, who'd never seen a live game of RL, even after losing, one has commited to being a season ticket holder for next season,the other deffo coming to the KR game. Little by little this expansionism is working, with 4000 more RL fans in N.Wales than before,and numerous schools etc starting to play the game.IMO all this makes sticking with N.Wales a positive option. As for the scorpions, many of us in wrexham hope this succeeds, and many young welsh players get their break with crus in SL. So much so that I've even contributed to sponsoring a scorpions game in S. Wales. So hopefully most negativity to this topic can be put to bed,and all get behind the RFL and make Wrexham and the Crusaders the success that RL needs.


Like you, I also took mates to the game who had never been before - the reaction was the same.

I also agree with the rest of your post.



#80 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:16 PM

QUOTE (Mumby Magic @ Aug 25 2010, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's one thing having a discussion and it's another thing going over the same arguement without any progress and appearing to squabble endlessly. Other posters are making points but you two seem to be overlooking most of this to continue your disagreement.


I'd agree with Dally, there was no personal abuse. Simply a disagreement. Without disagreements nobody would ever go on forums.




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