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Linesmen!


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#1 Kol

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 10:07 PM

Ok, we have a fair few points to say about the ref's in our game; but what about the linesmen?

They miss tons, even when they are on the spot; foot on the whitewash, knock on's, groundings, forward passes, hand in at the play the ball, off sides and half the tw@'s glance at each other before making the bold decision to raise their flag to confirm the 2 point conversion award.

So, how do we improve the quality of the linesmen in our beloved game? pension them off?

Over to you.

#2 sallywt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:31 AM

QUOTE (Kol @ Sep 1 2010, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, we have a fair few points to say about the ref's in our game; but what about the linesmen?

They miss tons, even when they are on the spot; foot on the whitewash, knock on's, groundings, forward passes, hand in at the play the ball, off sides and half the tw@'s glance at each other before making the bold decision to raise their flag to confirm the 2 point conversion award.

So, how do we improve the quality of the linesmen in our beloved game? pension them off?

Over to you.


This is a rugby league forum and as such we discuss rugby league matters. We do not have linesmen, we have touch judges.

That being the case exactly how do you judge if they have missed something as you claim?

#3 PC

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:14 AM

QUOTE (sallywt @ Sep 2 2010, 07:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is a rugby league forum and as such we discuss rugby league matters. We do not have linesmen, we have touch judges.

That being the case exactly how do you judge if they have missed something as you claim?

Are you saying touchies never make mistakes?

#4 sallywt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE (PC @ Sep 2 2010, 08:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are you saying touchies never make mistakes?


No, I'm saying they are not linesmen

#5 petero

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:14 PM

QUOTE (sallywt @ Sep 2 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, I'm saying they are not linesmen


Ok if you want to be pedantic. But in all fairation the present day TOUCH JUDGES? are a complete waste of time.

One glaring incident in last weeks CC final ( and I am not anti-Leeds, not one bit ) was the try that Smith scored!

The bloody TJ was completely in line with Smith and consequently could not have been in any doubt at all that the pass from McGuire was yards forward.

I took particular note of that TJs positioning in the replays and if you are wanting to contest my argument then take a look again at a recording before doing so.

I can recall a time when the forward pass was seen and flagged before the receiver had advanced a yard from where it occurred and whyever the same cannot be applied today amazes me profusely.

There was no technology involved before, the TJ simply used his eyes and flagged when he saw an incident beyond the rules, they worked far better in tandem with the ref and the game was much cleanly officiated than today's technological infested offerring for it.

I am certain that I will now be overwhelmed with luddite claims from the progressives of R/L ( as they see themselves) for such a tirade of heresy, but the fact remains that the TJs are presently worthless and too much escapes their attention throughout most games being played. mad.gif


#6 deluded pom?

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:34 PM

The technology used today is a double edged sword. On one hand it helps the officials get the try decisions right more often than not. That's not to say that prior to the technology being used that the officials made mistakes regrding tries more often than not. It's jut that any mistake they make is magnified one hundred fold by the TV "analysts" who instead of accepting a decision for what it is, a split second decision made by a human being not a machine, then waffle on for a quarter of an hour about the ref and TJs not doing their jobs properly. It's actually these people who I feel are putting so much undue pressure on the officials that some are reluctant to make on the spot decisions that they know will be taken apart televisually and then put back together again until they find a mistake. The Aussie commentators don't feel the need to whine on for minutes on end about a decision they feel was wrong. They may mention it in passing but unless it's a highly controversial decision they just get on with the job of commentating on the game.

Edited by deluded pom?, 02 September 2010 - 03:37 PM.

rldfsignature.jpg


#7 Old Frightful

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:36 PM

Why do I get the feeling Lee may be along shortly...

Untitled_zpsd0bda754.jpg

 

 

 

_60052630_bentham.jpg    "Forward pass, head and feed to New Zealand.....What's that Mr Sutton?, no we can't go to the f***ing video ref!"


#8 sallywt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:41 PM

So who can tell me exactly what a TJ's job involves?

#9 Impartial Observer

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 04:14 PM

QUOTE (sallywt @ Sep 2 2010, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So who can tell me exactly what a TJ's job involves?


The referee is the sole judge on matters of fact except for touch, touch in goal and kicks at goal which are the jobs of the TJs. The TJ can offer advice as to knock ons, forwards passes, offside etc but it is down to the referee if the advice is taken or not, in most pro games the Match Officials have communication kits so you will not see any signals between the Ref and TJ.

#10 R J Wagsmith

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 04:22 PM

Sallywt is not being pedantic . Rugby League has Touch Judges. It does not have Linesmen. It is a simple fact.

#11 Blind side johnny

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:30 PM

QUOTE (petero @ Sep 2 2010, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok if you want to be pedantic. But in all fairation the present day TOUCH JUDGES? are a complete waste of time.

One glaring incident in last weeks CC final ( and I am not anti-Leeds, not one bit ) was the try that Smith scored!

The bloody TJ was completely in line with Smith and consequently could not have been in any doubt at all that the pass from McGuire was yards forward.

I took particular note of that TJs positioning in the replays and if you are wanting to contest my argument then take a look again at a recording before doing so.

I can recall a time when the forward pass was seen and flagged before the receiver had advanced a yard from where it occurred and whyever the same cannot be applied today amazes me profusely.


Then your memory is truly remarkable - touch judges have never flagged for forward passes but have used subtle signals with their flags to indicate to the referee that they believe that a pass was forward. In the course of play the referee would then decide whether to take any notice of this signal or simply to continue with play.


Have you heard of false memory syndrome?


QUOTE
There was no technology involved before, the TJ simply used his eyes and flagged when he saw an incident beyond the rules, they worked far better in tandem with the ref and the game was much cleanly officiated than today's technological infested offerring for it.



No additional technology is available in the majority of games played today, although you may be under the impression that only in SL is RL still being played.

One of the biggest problems that does cause unrest amongst fans, including on this forum, is that the majority of them do not know or understand the rules, yet berate the officials for failing to implement them as they believe they should be implemented. i.e. incorrectly.

Fortunately this is not a new innovation either.



Believe what you see, don't see what you believe.


John Ray (1627 - 1705)

#12 Lee

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE (Old Frightful @ Sep 2 2010, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do I get the feeling Lee may be along shortly...



Nope i watch Referees not touch judges (winter is ref time, summer is both)


BTW, both do an sterling job


Wath Brow coming up soon dry.gif





A lot of Yorkshiremen believe that when God created the world, he made it with perfect balance.
He balanced the hot areas with the cold areas. the dry areas with the wet areas.
And, in creating Yorkshire, he created the most glorious place on earth - full of majestic beauty and sporting giants.........and for balance he created....... Lancashire.

#13 Lee

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:39 PM

QUOTE (Impartial Observer @ Sep 2 2010, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The referee is the sole judge on matters of fact except for touch, touch in goal and kicks at goal which are the jobs of the TJs. The TJ can offer advice as to knock ons, forwards passes, offside etc but it is down to the referee if the advice is taken or not, in most pro games the Match Officials have communication kits so you will not see any signals between the Ref and TJ.



There speaks a ref biggrin.gif


Saved me a job



A lot of Yorkshiremen believe that when God created the world, he made it with perfect balance.
He balanced the hot areas with the cold areas. the dry areas with the wet areas.
And, in creating Yorkshire, he created the most glorious place on earth - full of majestic beauty and sporting giants.........and for balance he created....... Lancashire.

#14 ritz

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:02 PM

Sally knows what shes on about. she wouldnt be touchjudging semi if she didnt.

#15 Old Frightful

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:01 PM

A couple of incidents spring to mind when I think of Touch Judges facing criticism.

The first was when I was at the Boulevard a fair few years ago and the game was live on Sky. The opposition went for touch and the ball, seemed to bounce about six inches over the whitewash, and as a result Hull should have had a scrum feed from where it was kicked. The TJ put his flag up and raced to where he claimed the ball had bounced in field before going into touch. He got rather a lot of "advice" suggesting he was incorrect. When I got home, I replayed the incident and the TJ had got it absolutely spot on.

The other time was at the KC the other week in the Hull derby. Calderwood hoofed the ball down the right hand touch and chased after it, running out of play then back in and kicking it again as he stepped back in play. It seemed at the time he may have been in touch with his supporting foot when he kicked it but slow mo replays showed he wasn't. Again the resulting try to Berrigan was awarded without hesitation or going to the big screen.

I'm sure they make mistakes like all of us do from time to time but those two decisions were brave ones made without the aid of replays but which both were subject to close scrutiny afterwards.

Untitled_zpsd0bda754.jpg

 

 

 

_60052630_bentham.jpg    "Forward pass, head and feed to New Zealand.....What's that Mr Sutton?, no we can't go to the f***ing video ref!"


#16 Lee

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:32 PM



Only thing i'll add at the levels below super league is, next time your at a live game like you just mentioned Rob, no cameras, the 3 of em get one look, one split second to make a call, your gonna get bad calls every now and again, i witnessed one not so long ago and told him bout it.

The live games are great, endless replays to get things right, but lower down you aint afforded that luxury


Who'd be a touchie/ref, i know i wouldnt


A lot of Yorkshiremen believe that when God created the world, he made it with perfect balance.
He balanced the hot areas with the cold areas. the dry areas with the wet areas.
And, in creating Yorkshire, he created the most glorious place on earth - full of majestic beauty and sporting giants.........and for balance he created....... Lancashire.

#17 Lee

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:35 PM

QUOTE (ritz @ Sep 2 2010, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
she wouldnt be touchjudging semi if she didnt.



Oooooo errrrrrrrrrrr matron


A lot of Yorkshiremen believe that when God created the world, he made it with perfect balance.
He balanced the hot areas with the cold areas. the dry areas with the wet areas.
And, in creating Yorkshire, he created the most glorious place on earth - full of majestic beauty and sporting giants.........and for balance he created....... Lancashire.

#18 amh

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:36 PM

QUOTE (ritz @ Sep 2 2010, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sally knows what shes on about. she wouldnt be touchjudging semi if she didnt.


Chairman M alert ph34r.gif biggrin.gif

IMO until we get cameras attached to the refs/TJs at eye level and can replay just what they saw it's always going to be hard to call

Whilst I do not suffer fools gladly, I will always gladly make fools suffer

A man is getting along on the road of wisdom when he realises that his opinion is just an opinion


#19 sallywt

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 03:19 PM

QUOTE (ritz @ Sep 2 2010, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sally knows what shes on about. she wouldnt be touchjudging semi if she didnt.


wink.gif

The thing that really annoys me is people claiming that as a TJ I am not doing my job correctly when they don't actually know what my job entails or what I should be doing.

As for this whole forward pass thing, I really can't say that I've studied the Leeds try in the cup final that closely to be able to say one way or the other however one thing is certain, the touch judge will not have been looking at how the ball travels across the ground as that is irrelevant, he will have been looking at the direction of the hands passing the ball as the passing players obligation is to pass the ball backwards and the laws state:

"The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and
not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running
towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards
a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s
own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the
ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not
passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is
particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high,
lobbed pass."

Also as amh says, unless you actually get exactly the same view as the TJ, who are you to say what they have seen.

#20 babbysyed

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE (sallywt @ Sep 3 2010, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
wink.gif

The thing that really annoys me is people claiming that as a TJ I am not doing my job correctly when they don't actually know what my job entails or what I should be doing.

As for this whole forward pass thing, I really can't say that I've studied the Leeds try in the cup final that closely to be able to say one way or the other however one thing is certain, the touch judge will not have been looking at how the ball travels across the ground as that is irrelevant, he will have been looking at the direction of the hands passing the ball as the passing players obligation is to pass the ball backwards and the laws state:

"The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and
not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running
towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards
a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s
own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the
ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not
passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is
particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high,
lobbed pass."

Also as amh says, unless you actually get exactly the same view as the TJ, who are you to say what they have seen.



As an active touch judge I would have thought Sallywt should have indeed studied closely the Leeds try and in particular why the pass was not picked up as being forward. Surely an intregal part of being a match official is to learn from situations like this. Was the TJ's position OK and just a case of poor judgement?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only obligation on the player is not to pass the ball forward.




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