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RFL needs to reform access to SL for Co-Op C. Clubs


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#21 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (1976PMJwires @ Sep 8 2010, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you started this thread as your aware of Basil going to Salford wink.gif


Thought he was on a contract.

But anyway this just backs up my thread. Why would an aspiring coach want to hang around in some no-mark division with no chance of SL until 2015?

#22 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:10 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Sep 8 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the rfl have got it spot on with entry into SL

other than widnes no other championship club is fit for SL.

down the track leigh and fax could be ready but not now

if championship clubs really want to get into SL its up to them to improve off the field.


Who will watch a club with no clear route to the top? The RFL have created a huge chicken and egg situation. People won't just suddenly en masse start going to watch a 2nd tier club because it could all be in vain (as Barrow, Fev and Fax will shortly discover)

people will go if there is a clear unfettered route from on the pitch performances (so long as other boxes are of course ticked). It's all about building momentum

#23 1976PMJwires

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:12 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thought he was on a contract.

But anyway this just backs up my thread. Why would an aspiring coach want to hang around in some no-mark division with no chance of SL until 2015?



i thought he had a contract as well, but rumour has it, Salford are sniffing.

i do agree with you 3 years is a long time, 2 years would be ideal.

Leigh / Fev / Fax need to get there crowds up for me.


on a side note.


My mate went to the Quins match on Friday, said he was "gutted" as there was more interest in the stands (drinking and watching sky sports news) than the watching the match on the pitch.

he thinks a Championship club will have to be a stand by during the 2012-2014 seasons, cant see Quins surviving.

Quins had an offer for season tickets holders to bring 3 friends for Free and the crowd was no bigger than the "average" he said Wires took approx 1000 fans...... the future is very bleak.

#24 dallymessenger

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:13 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Who will watch a club with no clear route to the top? The RFL have created a huge chicken and egg situation. People won't just suddenly en masse start going to watch a 2nd tier club because it could all be in vain (as Barrow, Fev and Fax will shortly discover)

people will go if there is a clear unfettered route from on the pitch performances (so long as other boxes are of course ticked). It's all about building momentum


if a club in the heartlands with no competing local sports cant attract a crowd for a game they should just pack it in.

P&R was tried and failed

franchising is now being tried and has gone off like a treat.

if championship clubs want to get into SL they need to improve.

#25 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:27 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Sep 8 2010, 12:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if a club in the heartlands with no competing local sports cant attract a crowd for a game they should just pack it in.

P&R was tried and failed

franchising is now being tried and has gone off like a treat.

if championship clubs want to get into SL they need to improve.


The main competing sport is football (live or TV) or another SL club to a lesser extent. For Leigh it is Man U, Man City, Liverpool etc

Just how has franchising gone off a treat? Crowds are no bigger for SL clubs than they were 3, 5, 7 years ago with P&R. In some cases they are far worse. However crowds are also declining for Co-Op clubs since the last announcement.

I'd like to see you try and market the game to Co-Op clubs for the next 4 years to get them to improve with the current system

#26 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:29 AM

QUOTE (1976PMJwires @ Sep 8 2010, 12:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i thought he had a contract as well, but rumour has it, Salford are sniffing.

i do agree with you 3 years is a long time, 2 years would be ideal.

Leigh / Fev / Fax need to get there crowds up for me.


on a side note.


My mate went to the Quins match on Friday, said he was "gutted" as there was more interest in the stands (drinking and watching sky sports news) than the watching the match on the pitch.

he thinks a Championship club will have to be a stand by during the 2012-2014 seasons, cant see Quins surviving.

Quins had an offer for season tickets holders to bring 3 friends for Free and the crowd was no bigger than the "average" he said Wires took approx 1000 fans...... the future is very bleak.


I was at the Quins game hoping that DW would announce that the club had moved and changed name. Sadly its the status quo, so all I can see is a gradual decline in crowds for Quins. Better to move now if DW is happy to underwrite them until 2014


#27 The Parksider

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:42 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Four-Five years is a hell of a long time to be in the wilderness with no promotion prospects.

My prediction is that crowds in the Co-Op championship will plummet to circa-1000 levels or less after the licensing decision in 2011. The better supported clubs will lose all but a few hardy souls/WAGS/family, which will in turn affect away followings at the porrly supported clubs.

I cannot make it clear enough that it is not in RL fans nature to watch a second tier with no prospects for so long, so any prat on here who says the usual #### "why not just watch your team for the rugby and find your level" can go forth and fornicate

IMO there is no point making life easy for the likes of one of two SL clubs near the bottom whilst the rest of pro-RL goes into meltdown.

The other thing that the RFL should bear in mind is that the fans that will be lost will also in many cases stop watching internationals and finals, and could also remove sky sports subscriptions, which will in turn harm RL's hopes to get more money from sky next time.

There are other alternatives to keep everyone happy. I am an expansionist as well as a heartlander, and realise that there is no point cutting off our nose to spite our face. What we need is regular promotion to SL, if enough achievable criteria can be met (i.e. youth, finances) with a ringfenced 1 year for the promoted club(s) to get its/theirself sorted on-the-pitch and to make necessary moderate amendments to their stadium (if it is close the the min requirement (e.g. Barrow).

it's not rocket science


To be fair to you if people want a cheese sandwich they can go the the shop/cafe/canteen. You have a right to have a say as much as you want, and Lord knows so many including me and the food jokers are predictable and repetetive.

Just bear in mind on the actual figures of increases in SL crowds and decreases in NL crowds the nett effect of Superleague is 21,000 more fans watching Rugby League.

It is also the case that out of 14 places in SL probably about nine clubs can compete and Salford and Harlequins have already made positive moves to ensure they can compete in the coming years.

At this point in time two clubs are in the mire - Castleford and Wakefield, but both are adamant they can deliver the grounds and kick on with decent fanbases already that can be improved. Bradford are heading for the mire but have plans to try to arrest and reverse the decline.

So I think that it's too early to advocate musical chairs Lobby.

I do have sympathy with what you say and if Cas, Bradford and Wakey genuinely are struggling and aren't going to get out of that then why not give two out of Featherstone, Leigh, Barrow or Halifax a chance in SL.

There are several issues.

1. Does the board of any of the four NL clubs mentioned have the money to spend to properly compete in SL, and most of all have a clear desire to do so. You cannot set rules that force clubs into expenditure they do not have or do not want to commit??

2. The three clubs in SL struggling returned a combined average attendance of 23,000 fans last year

3. The three possibles for SL as above (ex-Barrow) returned a combined average of 11,300 the last season they competed in top flight rugby. There is a chance that in replacing two city clubs with two small town clubs you will get a large nett loss in fans.

You say it's not rocket science, but your calculations are likely to cause a couple of nosedives and a crash.

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#28 shrek

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:55 AM

You can't have P&R between Super League and The Championship with expansion on the agenda and the salary cap as is.

However would staggered licensing help make things more interesting? Instead of all clubs being on 3 year licences you could award lengths of time based on the final rating but also have it so that not all your C rated clubs had licences up for renewal in the same year, if that makes sense.

Or keep licences as they are, but make The Championship the pinnacle of a deeper pyramid system based around P&R marketing it as such, be more imaginative in the type of TV that is offered, ok Rugby League Raw might not be everyone's cup of tea, but offer up fly on the wall or similar documentary style offerings to TV companies as well as your standard live matches, highlight packages and magazine shows might help bring in a decent deal.

Then maybe trim down the Super League play-offs and have some form of competition pre/early season competition (maybe even magic weekend) involving some of the play-off sides, maybe some of Europes developing nations and The Championship champions.

Also change the salary cap in The Championship away from a flat cap to a percentage of turn over to allow clubs to develop into clubs capable of competing at a higher level without wholesale change the moment they are awarded a licence.

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#29 dallymessenger

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:55 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The main competing sport is football (live or TV) or another SL club to a lesser extent. For Leigh it is Man U, Man City, Liverpool etc

Just how has franchising gone off a treat? Crowds are no bigger for SL clubs than they were 3, 5, 7 years ago with P&R. In some cases they are far worse. However crowds are also declining for Co-Op clubs since the last announcement.

I'd like to see you try and market the game to Co-Op clubs for the next 4 years to get them to improve with the current system


look at widnes 3 years ago trying to get into SL and going into administration and now 3 years later.

franchising gives clubs a chance to develop over time rather than mortgaging their futures on one year

why should a promoted club only have 1 year to prove its a SL club.

widnes will get 3 years to show they can handle SL, much better than one season.



#30 Terry Chimes

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 12:55 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought this post deserves a dedicated thread. My club Leigh and its fans, plus other clubs who haven't got an on-the-pitch box ticked, now know that we will not be in SL until at least 2015 (unless the RFL amends the 3-year cycle). All the other clubs eligible will learn their fate next year, with (I'm guessing) only one to go up. Four-Five years is a hell of a long time to be in the wilderness with no promotion prospects.

My prediction is that crowds in the Co-Op championship will plummet to circa-1000 levels or less after the licensing decision in 2011. The better supported clubs will lose all but a few hardy souls/WAGS/family, which will in tuen affect away followings at the porrly supported clubs.

I cannot make it clear enough that it is not in RL fans nature to watch a second tier with no prospects for so long, so any prat on here who says the usual #### "why not just watch your team for the rugby and find your level" can go forth and fornicate

Does the RFL want such a second tier until 2015? By that time all the co-op championship clubs will have lost the majority of their fanbases and be left with little more than an amateur clubs support. IMO there is no point making life easy for the likes of one of two SL clubs near the bottom whilst the rest of pro-RL goes into meltdown.

The other thing that the RFL should bear in mind is that the fans that will be lost will also in many cases stop watching internationals and finals, and could also remove sky sports subscriptions, which will in turn harm RL's hopes to get more money from sky next time.

There are other alternatives to keep everyone happy. I am an expansionist as well as a heartlander, and realise that there is no point cutting off our nose to spite our face. What we need is regular promotion to SL, if enough achievable criteria can be met (i.e. youth, finances) with a ringfenced 1 year for the promoted club(s) to get its/theirself sorted on-the-pitch and to make necessary moderate amendments to their stadium (if it is close the the min requirement (e.g. Barrow).

it's not rocket science




Crikey Lobbygobbler, can't you put another record on.

Whilst I don't particularly like the franchise system, it does give a proper structured pathway for clubs to gain SL status and does, in my opinion, keep the 'lower levels' of our wonderful game competitive.


Saying this, I find it difficult for a Leigh fan to have a moan about promotion and relegation considering the RFL let them remain in the Championship this year after being fairly and squarely relegated in 2009.

Two clubs who are quite happy succeeding in the Championship (and with a fraction of the Centurians resources and their 'duel registration' players) ended your League and NRC campaigns, and in your one tilt at Super League you achieved the sum total of 5 (five) points.

SL entry is all about jumping through the right hoops at the right time. Widnes appear to have done this, the rest of the Championship are either not interested or are quite simply not prepared for Super Dooper Dooper League.

Tick the right boxes and you'll get there. Simple.



#31 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:02 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Sep 8 2010, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
look at widnes 3 years ago trying to get into SL and going into administration and now 3 years later.

franchising gives clubs a chance to develop over time rather than mortgaging their futures on one year

why should a promoted club only have 1 year to prove its a SL club.

widnes will get 3 years to show they can handle SL, much better than one season.


Widnes were guaranteed the next spot as soon as they were told they would not get a license in the last round. Two reasons why:

1/ Sympathy vote for the omittance last time
2/ They have a multi-millionaire

So even if Leigh had won the NRC or got to a GF AND had a millionaire, we would have failed on the sympathy vote. All Co-Op champ fans know that - not just Leigh. The only slight uncertainty was them ticking the on-field box, which they did fairly early in

I think a shorter cycle needs trying next time

#32 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:06 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 8 2010, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To be fair to you if people want a cheese sandwich they can go the the shop/cafe/canteen. You have a right to have a say as much as you want, and Lord knows so many including me and the food jokers are predictable and repetetive.

Just bear in mind on the actual figures of increases in SL crowds and decreases in NL crowds the nett effect of Superleague is 21,000 more fans watching Rugby League.

It is also the case that out of 14 places in SL probably about nine clubs can compete and Salford and Harlequins have already made positive moves to ensure they can compete in the coming years.

At this point in time two clubs are in the mire - Castleford and Wakefield, but both are adamant they can deliver the grounds and kick on with decent fanbases already that can be improved. Bradford are heading for the mire but have plans to try to arrest and reverse the decline.

So I think that it's too early to advocate musical chairs Lobby.

I do have sympathy with what you say and if Cas, Bradford and Wakey genuinely are struggling and aren't going to get out of that then why not give two out of Featherstone, Leigh, Barrow or Halifax a chance in SL.

There are several issues.

1. Does the board of any of the four NL clubs mentioned have the money to spend to properly compete in SL, and most of all have a clear desire to do so. You cannot set rules that force clubs into expenditure they do not have or do not want to commit??

2. The three clubs in SL struggling returned a combined average attendance of 23,000 fans last year

3. The three possibles for SL as above (ex-Barrow) returned a combined average of 11,300 the last season they competed in top flight rugby. There is a chance that in replacing two city clubs with two small town clubs you will get a large nett loss in fans.

You say it's not rocket science, but your calculations are likely to cause a couple of nosedives and a crash.

I had a Ham Salad in Keighley today.


Where do you get your extra 21k fans from?

By the way be careful with comparing a gain of SL fans to a loss of NL fans. It is the latter (like me) who are more likely to be a hardcore RL fan, subscriber to sky for RL only, watcher of internationals/cup finals, rather than the former who is more likely to be a casual fan/handwaver


#33 Terry Chimes

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:17 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Widnes were guaranteed the next spot as soon as they were told they would not get a license in the last round. Two reasons why:

1/ Sympathy vote for the omittance last time
2/ They have a multi-millionaire

So even if Leigh had won the NRC or got to a GF AND had a millionaire, we would have failed on the sympathy vote. All Co-Op champ fans know that - not just Leigh. The only slight uncertainty was them ticking the on-field box, which they did fairly early in

I think a shorter cycle needs trying next time


How bitter are you.

I suggest you and all like minded 'anti francise fans' stop moaning and give us some peace and quiet.

Maybe you could all meet at the hotel accross from the LSV and create a new game, breakaway from the RFL and create a third code of rugby.

Maybe call it Rugby Leigh.






#34 davo99

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:35 PM

Jesus wept not again

When you spit your dummy coz Leigh haven't a hope in hell of doing anything AGAIN and you stop going to the game, and cancel sky and whatever else it is you think will get anyone remotely interested in kicking someone out to make way for leigh, can you also spit your dummy enough to kill your membership on here as well

#35 RP London

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:38 PM

QUOTE (tim2 @ Sep 8 2010, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The people who already go don't care, and the new people we attract don't know. They just see a great game that they want to watch again. It takes a while before they understand the nuances of the game's structure, and by then they're hooked.

The average at BL is already over 1K, and next year there's no Whitehaven to come down - Hunslet and probably Oldham will bring more than Haven and Keighley did.


couldnt agree with this more.. in relation to sheffield

with the rest of this thread.. i have said my peice often enough on it (as has lobby surely!)



#36 The Parksider

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:41 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Where do you get your extra 21k fans from?

By the way be careful with comparing a gain of SL fans to a loss of NL fans. It is the latter (like me) who are more likely to be a hardcore RL fan, subscriber to sky for RL only, watcher of internationals/cup finals, rather than the former who is more likely to be a casual fan/handwaver


The average attendances at clubs are all published for 1996 to date and you can add it up yourself.

It was Trojan who repeatedly spoke about shut out NL clubs losing the game fans, which is a one sided argument as SL gains fans.

So a simple (And I note that it's not as simple as that given your last comment to take care) evaluation of the stats revealed that in effect Superleague has seen the game attract more fans over the last 14 years, by my calculation 21,000.

You will know an NL with an average fan base of 1720 per club (last season) can't lose that many fans can they??

In any event I entirely refute the idea that attendances collapse when SL is refused.

Take Dewsbury - Their fanbase hasn't collapsed it has just consolidated and that has happened after several years of no chance of superleague. 1,263 last year isn't that much different to their fan base pre their failed SL application.

Look at the SL average in 1996 - 6,400 and see how that has grown over the years.....

Your argument is the usual impassioned one and good on you, but the figures don't add up on fans.

I do wonder if the figures add up in terms of finances. Last year Leigh averaged 1917 fans. I would expect that in Superleague that will double and more. You had 4750 for your only Superleague campaign.

However we know that 4750 is the sort of attendance that means big big losses Between 1million (ala HKR) and 1.5Million (ala Quins) a year. Seriously....

1. Does your board wish to make up such losses??
2. Or will your board operate on a very low salary cap to try to break even??
3. Does your board even want to be in Superleague???

I'd like your opinion on the real issue which is money.

I don't buy your justification for NL clubs entering SL.

But I do have massive sympathy for the "moral" argument that clubs should be able to have a go. That being said Leigh had a go as did Halifax - but both in old grounds to be fair.

So by all means I'm happy to give you a tacit agreement that such as Fev, Fax and Leigh should somewhere be be given a three year chance to show what they can do. How we manage to accomodate that without heavily risking losing fans and ruining other bigger clubs like Bradford or clubs with more potential like Wakefield or clubs with larger fan bases - like Cas - well answr that??



#37 brooza

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 01:44 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My club Leigh [...] who haven't got an on-the-pitch box ticked, now know that we will not be in SL until at least 2015. Four-Five years is a hell of a long time to be in the wilderness with no promotion prospects.

So, you're basically complaining that a club that hasn't won anything in the last 3 years (and should have been relegated last year) aren't being promoted to SL?

With Licensing or P&R, you have to win something to get promoted

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#38 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:01 PM

QUOTE (brooza @ Sep 8 2010, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, you're basically complaining that a club that hasn't won anything in the last 3 years (and should have been relegated last year) aren't being promoted to SL?

With Licensing or P&R, you have to win something to get promoted


Err no. Actually my post is applicable for all Co-Op clubs (bar Widnes who will get the nod)

I've no qualms about not going up NEXT YEAR, or even the year after, however what I simply cannot tolerate is a 5 year ##### wait in a no-mark competion with nowt to play for. So goodbye sky sports from next year onwards

#39 West Country Eagle

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE (RP London @ Sep 8 2010, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
couldnt agree with this more.. in relation to sheffield

with the rest of this thread.. i have said my peice often enough on it (as has lobby surely!)


That won't stop him.

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#40 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 02:09 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 8 2010, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The average attendances at clubs are all published for 1996 to date and you can add it up yourself.

It was Trojan who repeatedly spoke about shut out NL clubs losing the game fans, which is a one sided argument as SL gains fans.

So a simple (And I note that it's not as simple as that given your last comment to take care) evaluation of the stats revealed that in effect Superleague has seen the game attract more fans over the last 14 years, by my calculation 21,000.

You will know an NL with an average fan base of 1720 per club (last season) can't lose that many fans can they??

In any event I entirely refute the idea that attendances collapse when SL is refused.

Take Dewsbury - Their fanbase hasn't collapsed it has just consolidated and that has happened after several years of no chance of superleague. 1,263 last year isn't that much different to their fan base pre their failed SL application.

Look at the SL average in 1996 - 6,400 and see how that has grown over the years.....

Your argument is the usual impassioned one and good on you, but the figures don't add up on fans.

I do wonder if the figures add up in terms of finances. Last year Leigh averaged 1917 fans. I would expect that in Superleague that will double and more. You had 4750 for your only Superleague campaign.

However we know that 4750 is the sort of attendance that means big big losses Between 1million (ala HKR) and 1.5Million (ala Quins) a year. Seriously....

1. Does your board wish to make up such losses??
2. Or will your board operate on a very low salary cap to try to break even??
3. Does your board even want to be in Superleague???

I'd like your opinion on the real issue which is money.

I don't buy your justification for NL clubs entering SL.

But I do have massive sympathy for the "moral" argument that clubs should be able to have a go. That being said Leigh had a go as did Halifax - but both in old grounds to be fair.

So by all means I'm happy to give you a tacit agreement that such as Fev, Fax and Leigh should somewhere be be given a three year chance to show what they can do. How we manage to accomodate that without heavily risking losing fans and ruining other bigger clubs like Bradford or clubs with more potential like Wakefield or clubs with larger fan bases - like Cas - well answr that??


Parky - This post is however not attacking the SL concept ince 1996 so your post is irrelevant. P&R was only shelved a couple of years ago so really the before/after point for comparison should be the last licensing decision.

I don't recall a huge increase in SL crowds since the licensing decision

Why do you rabbit on about Dewsbury. Actually in my example they are one of the poorest supported clubs who are have been at the bare bones level of around 1k for many years. Those sorts of crowds are the future in Co-op 1 unless something is done. You might be happy about that, but it is carp for the game. Our 2nd tier ought to be getting a 5k average for RL to become a credible 2nd speccy sport. This can only happen with realistic hopes for top flight. On the other hand if good crowds at 14 clubs and stuff the rest is what the RFL want then we'll end up being swamped by Union




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