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RFL needs to reform access to SL for Co-Op C. Clubs


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#141 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 12:42 AM

QUOTE (StevieM13 @ Sep 11 2010, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What are these problems? The differential in crowds is perhaps something to do with the polarisation of money in SL and the removal of P&R meaning fans of championship clubs don't bother as much as they may if the RFL wasn't attempting to cut the Championship leagues loose.

Relegation, be it through P&R or having a licence revoked will signal the end of a club, and that's simply again because all the money is polarised in SL. Why is RL the only major sport in the country not to use P&R?

Stop ranting. It's affecting your ability to think.

How can the difference in crowds be due to P&R being taken away? Think about it. The crowds are similar now to what they were throughout the last decade of P&R. So that's not why.

Why is Rugby League the only major sport in the country not to use P&R? Because it isn't. Cricket is considerably bigger and doesn't.


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#142 StevieM13

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 12:53 AM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Sep 11 2010, 01:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Stop ranting. It's affecting your ability to think.

How can the difference in crowds be due to P&R being taken away? Think about it. The crowds are similar now to what they were throughout the last decade of P&R. So that's not why.

Why is Rugby League the only major sport in the country not to use P&R? Because it isn't. Cricket is considerably bigger and doesn't.

What are the problems that are exclusive to RL? Do you not understand what perhaps means? A system of two up two down is employed in the county championship and many other leagues at all levels.


#143 JohnM

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 07:35 AM

QUOTE (StevieM13 @ Sep 11 2010, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why is RL the only major sport in the country not to use P&R?



Can anyone confirm this From Wikipedia, "The English Premier Ice Hockey League commonly abbreviated to EPIHL, or simpy EPL, is a senior ice hockey league in England, and is run and administered by the English Ice Hockey Association. The league currently consists of 10 teams predominantly based in Southern England, and is generally considered to be the second tier league below the Elite Ice Hockey League although there is no promotion or relegation between the two."

also

"There is no promotion and relegation between the EBL and the British Basketball League, which operates a franchise system."

Edited by JohnM, 11 September 2010 - 07:36 AM.


#144 The Parksider

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 07:49 AM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Sep 10 2010, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think too many clubs can dwindle interest.

But I also think that there needs to be a rivalry. There needs to be a main team that the fans and players want to get one over on more than anyone else in the league. Not eight. Not ten. Just one.

Basically, IMO there is an optimum number of clubs for an area. A stand alone club suffers from depression, but a crowded club is strained.


Your just too ahead of me Wellsy biggrin.gif

Right. Superleague could aim for two clubs in one area then move on. Let's try it....

Wigan/Saints

Oldham/Rochdale

Leeds/Bradford

Toulouse/Catalans

Hull/HKR

Crusaders/Scorpions

Quins/Skolars.

BINGO.....................

Fits absolutely perfectly mate, good one, we have the next round of licenses and you heard it here first.

Give Hull a cheer from me.........



#145 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:14 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 8 2010, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
, so any prat on here who says the usual #### "why not just watch your team for the rugby and find your level" can go forth and fornicate


I disagree with a lot of ewhat you say, but have always shown you respect
if that is the level of respect you show to fellow forum members who dare to disagree with you, then I suggest you take your own advice.
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#146 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:49 AM

QUOTE (JohnM @ Sep 11 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can anyone confirm this From Wikipedia, "The English Premier Ice Hockey League commonly abbreviated to EPIHL, or simpy EPL, is a senior ice hockey league in England, and is run and administered by the English Ice Hockey Association. The league currently consists of 10 teams predominantly based in Southern England, and is generally considered to be the second tier league below the Elite Ice Hockey League although there is no promotion or relegation between the two."

also

"There is no promotion and relegation between the EBL and the British Basketball League, which operates a franchise system."


So we want to be like two foreign sports with tiny crowds?

#147 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:52 AM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Sep 11 2010, 01:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Stop ranting. It's affecting your ability to think.

How can the difference in crowds be due to P&R being taken away? Think about it. The crowds are similar now to what they were throughout the last decade of P&R. So that's not why.

Why is Rugby League the only major sport in the country not to use P&R? Because it isn't. Cricket is considerably bigger and doesn't.


I thought cricket did? huh.gif

By the way the crowds for the bigger clubs in the co-op champ are lower than they were under P&R. This will decreased further after the next round ater the likes of Fax, Leigh, Fev, and Barrow become more demoralised with the prospect of another 4 years in the wilderness. The likes of Batley Dewsbury etc are already minimal because they accepted their fate 10 years ago.

Watch this space.....

#148 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:58 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 11 2010, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So we want to be like two foreign sports with tiny crowds?

who do you want rugby league to be like?
soccer? I'm afraid not because rugby league doesn't have the worldwide profile, the wealth or the infrastructure.


how about rugby union: again we don't have the worldwide profile or the wealth, or the friends in high places: but you can bet that within the next five years that they will stop 'promotion and relegation' to their main competition.

The issues that rugby league has to deal with are long standing, and have never been properly addressed. We have limited wealth, limited geographic and demographic spread, a limited international profile. We have clubs that can't sustain themselves at the top level of the game, your club being a classic and notorious example.

I could call you a prat and tell you to go forth asnd fornicate, but I wont. I'll leave that kind of intolerant oafishness to you.
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#149 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (l'angelo mysterioso @ Sep 11 2010, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
who do you want rugby league to be like?
soccer? I'm afraid not because rugby league doesn't have the worldwide profile, the wealth or the infrastructure.


how about rugby union: again we don't have the worldwide profile or the wealth, or the friends in high places: but you can bet that within the next five years that they will stop 'promotion and relegation' to their main competition.

The issues that rugby league has to deal with are long standing, and have never been properly addressed. We have limited wealth, limited geographic and demographic spread, a limited international profile. We have clubs that can't sustain themselves at the top level of the game, your club being a classic and notorious example.

I could call you a prat and tell you to go forth asnd fornicate, but I wont. I'll leave that kind of intolerant oafishness to you.


So you'll be happy to have 14 pro teams followed by a near amateur sub-1k crowd environment

#150 The Parksider

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 11 2010, 10:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So you'll be happy to have 14 pro teams followed by a near amateur sub-1k crowd environment


I wouldn't be happy with that. I would want enough new clubs around the country backed by big money men who find the couple of million a year to fund such a club peanuts - after all you can't get a single premier quality soccer player for that. Money goes a lot farther in Rugby.

I'd want the 14 to be the best of far more than 14 and even get to two fully pro divisions.

Truth is you could possibly do that if you shared the SKY money 500K per club over 20 clubs.

Then set the salary cap such that all could afford it - Leigh as well.

But with respect I don't think you are on the right lines arguing P&R between a division operating on a 4M turnover and has all the money men and one operatring on a 1M turnover and has no private money.

Why not argue for something that is within Leigh's means, because the truth may be - and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts - leigh don't have the means to compete in the current set up.


#151 The Parksider

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 09:49 AM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Sep 10 2010, 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"Are you drunk? Normally what you type is just of a weird opinion"

"Stop ranting - it's affecting your ability to think"


Some respect for posters please Wellsy, L'Angelo will have you........

Having mulled over your idea I think it's a good idea at times to have some intense local rivalry. We see this working well at Saints/Wigan.

However as a policy for the future you have to remember that a real rivalry is perhaps born of years of the two clubs competing closely, the Hull and the Sants/Wigan derbies can be traced back many many years.

So you can't really invent these rivalries, often based on false "hatreds". As many posters agreed on here the third "best" derby Leeds.v.Bradford actually has no real historical basis, and besides the crowds peaking very high for this derby they have somewhat now fallen away sharply. It is just another game and the hype wasn't swallowed for long.

Of course false or not Derby's do attract good gates, but I do think you need to split any "Derby" factor from the fact that the away fans in many cases may have shorter journeys than the home fans.That's a strength of M62 Rugby - games are accessible to away supporters. Having said that is it a good policy to continue for the future?
I don't think so because all it would do is concentrate the pro game along the M62.

If Rugby League wants a rivalry factor that stirs people to come to games then the perfect one for the future has to be such as England.v.Wales.v.France. Currently the M62 terraces empty as the Catalans or Crusaders pop up the Motorway, but league has to hope that one day clubs coming from other countries will be what stirs the interest rather than a club from the mill town popping over the hill to the mining village.

I think we saw a few years back a policy of promoting RL along the "derby" lines and we saw derbies in the Millenium Magic being actually engineered. Again the only two that worked were the usual two, but even then playing each other in league, cup, play off and then millenium magic simply dilutes and makes these games just another game rather than an event. I'm sure when Notts county finally manage to bump into Notts forest there'll be a stirring of interest on the derby factor, but the derby "policy" in RL has really been there, done it, not as important as other policies.

The Saints/Wigan derby works best for me, that's the one. Of course everyone in Hull can disagree and that's fine. The Hull derby certainly doesn't work when every time you go to Craven Park the crowd is sub 10,000. No point making excuses, it doesn't work half the time and that is a fact and not a "weird opinion". I also believe that the Hull (home) derby works tremendously well, but can't stop thinking how good it would be if all those good young Hull lads were all in one side, and the best imports were attracted to the club which in turn had 20,000 gates for every match rather than just one. Not my club, not my City and if one lucrative game a year is a good policy to you then fine.

I won't call you drunk or suggest your a ranter.




#152 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 09:55 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 11 2010, 10:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So you'll be happy to have 14 pro teams followed by a near amateur sub-1k crowd environment


no I wouldn't.
I was even less happy with the mess that the game was in before and that was a real situation rather than a self serving hypothesis created by you

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 11 September 2010 - 09:59 AM.

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#153 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 12:07 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 11 2010, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought cricket did? huh.gif

QUOTE (StevieM13 @ Sep 11 2010, 01:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A system of two up two down is employed in the county championship and many other leagues at all levels.

My mistake. I don't watch cricket, but was under the impression that there was "major" and "minor" club status. On reading about the set-up, there is P&R between the top two leagues, but none after that. Would you be happy with P&R from the SL to the Championship, but then cutting off P&R from the Championship to below that? Genuine question.
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#154 West Country Eagle

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 12:15 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Sep 12 2010, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My mistake. I don't watch cricket, but was under the impression that there was "major" and "minor" club status. On reading about the set-up, there is P&R between the top two leagues, but none after that. Would you be happy with P&R from the SL to the Championship, but then cutting off P&R from the Championship to below that? Genuine question.


There are two divisions of fully pro clubs - though they struggle - with a system of "minor counties" (amateur/semi-pro) below that.
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#155 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 12:20 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 11 2010, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your just too ahead of me Wellsy biggrin.gif

I wasn't trying to be ahead of you. I wasn't even replying to anything you said, I was just trying to offer an alternative view with a balanced argument. I don't mind having my opinions picked apart (it happens regularly) but if people aren't even going to bother to read the full point and just pick parts of it selectively it's kind of irritating.

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 11 2010, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Right. Superleague could aim for two clubs in one area then move on. Let's try it....

Wigan/Saints

Oldham/Rochdale

Leeds/Bradford

Toulouse/Catalans

Hull/HKR

Crusaders/Scorpions

Quins/Skolars.

BINGO.....................

Fits absolutely perfectly mate, good one, we have the next round of licenses and you heard it here first.

To be honest with you, that's the kind of set-up I'd be looking at. Maybe not them specific teams, but that sort of idea. Oldham/Rochdale for example is clearly not going to happen for a very very very long time given their current set-ups. Warrington/Widnes would work just as well.

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 11 2010, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Give Hull a cheer from me.........

I couldn't go. It was my brother's wedding yesterday. He's taken a lot of flack during the week for the scheduling, but on hindsight, it was probably a good thing!
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#156 Blind side johnny

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 11 2010, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought cricket did? huh.gif

By the way the crowds for the bigger clubs in the co-op champ are lower than they were under P&R. This will decreased further after the next round ater the likes of Fax, Leigh, Fev, and Barrow become more demoralised with the prospect of another 4 years in the wilderness. The likes of Batley Dewsbury etc are already minimal because they accepted their fate 10 years ago.

Watch this space.....



Your wealth of insight and understanding is awesome and beyond the grasp of most of us. However a little historical context would never come amiss would it?

Gates were higher everywhere and in every sport in the 40's/early 50's yet the gates at clubs such as Dewsbury and Batley were still comparatively low. As RL gates in general declined so did theirs to the point where in the 80's gates were around the 700/800 mark; we still had P&R in the 80's.

Dewsbury last played in the old 1st Division in 86 - their average gate was less than 1900. The following year it was less than 700.

Dewsbury declined to join the original NU in 1895 because they feared that the small gates that they would attract would mean that they couldn't sign any of the leading players, so wouldn't compete, so their gates would decline.

Plus ca change plus ca la meme chose, as they say in Batley.


If you could actually produce some convincing factual/statistical evidence to support your argument rather than basing it entirely upon the emotions generated by being condemned to watch leigh play in the Championship for the next 5+ years, then you may have generated some sympathy for your views. as it is you are just making yourself seem like an idiot.


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#157 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 01:54 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 11 2010, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some respect for posters please Wellsy, L'Angelo will have you........

Sometimes I'm a little bit "too the point", but I stand by them.
The first post you quote was about a completely incoherent rant with many points made being untrue or just not thought through.
The quote about your post, I genuinely thought you were drunk. It certainly wasn't the same sort of thing you type, as at least your usually just having an opinion. On that case, your facts were just completely wrong.

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 11 2010, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Having mulled over your idea I think it's a good idea at times to have some intense local rivalry. We see this working well at Saints/Wigan.

However as a policy for the future you have to remember that a real rivalry is perhaps born of years of the two clubs competing closely, the Hull and the Sants/Wigan derbies can be traced back many many years.

So you can't really invent these rivalries, often based on false "hatreds". As many posters agreed on here the third "best" derby Leeds.v.Bradford actually has no real historical basis, and besides the crowds peaking very high for this derby they have somewhat now fallen away sharply. It is just another game and the hype wasn't swallowed for long.

Of course false or not Derby's do attract good gates, but I do think you need to split any "Derby" factor from the fact that the away fans in many cases may have shorter journeys than the home fans.That's a strength of M62 Rugby - games are accessible to away supporters. Having said that is it a good policy to continue for the future?
I don't think so because all it would do is concentrate the pro game along the M62.

If Rugby League wants a rivalry factor that stirs people to come to games then the perfect one for the future has to be such as England.v.Wales.v.France. Currently the M62 terraces empty as the Catalans or Crusaders pop up the Motorway, but league has to hope that one day clubs coming from other countries will be what stirs the interest rather than a club from the mill town popping over the hill to the mining village.

I think we saw a few years back a policy of promoting RL along the "derby" lines and we saw derbies in the Millenium Magic being actually engineered. Again the only two that worked were the usual two, but even then playing each other in league, cup, play off and then millenium magic simply dilutes and makes these games just another game rather than an event. I'm sure when Notts county finally manage to bump into Notts forest there'll be a stirring of interest on the derby factor, but the derby "policy" in RL has really been there, done it, not as important as other policies.

All very good points, particularly the part about rivalries being born out of history rather than manufactured. This is in itself is an argument for having clubs spend some time at a lower level and developing these sort of rivalries rather than just throwing them in at the top with nothing interesting about them.

Your points about Bradford are fair, although their drop from the top half of the league could have more to do with why that rivalry went by the wayside. At the time, they were the two most successful clubs in West Yorkshire as well as the two best supported. Perhaps the number of clubs concentrated in the same area is the reason why this rivalry has been based on success of the two best clubs in the area (i.e. if one ends up being rubbish, it goes to the next club).

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 11 2010, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Saints/Wigan derby works best for me, that's the one. Of course everyone in Hull can disagree and that's fine. The Hull derby certainly doesn't work when every time you go to Craven Park the crowd is sub 10,000. No point making excuses, it doesn't work half the time and that is a fact and not a "weird opinion". I also believe that the Hull (home) derby works tremendously well, but can't stop thinking how good it would be if all those good young Hull lads were all in one side, and the best imports were attracted to the club which in turn had 20,000 gates for every match rather than just one. Not my club, not my City and if one lucrative game a year is a good policy to you then fine.

The Saints/Wigan derby works better because they are both more successful clubs and have been for the best part of the SL era and even many years before that, so there is always more of an interest from the neutral as it usually affects who is going to win the competition. The Hull derby at the moment is different as it hasn't really decided anything significant in the game, yet still brings in a huge amount of interest regardless. If they had the success of Saints and Wigan then the interest would change significantly.
At the moment, there is little we can do about Craven Park being small. That's just RL grounds for you. They aren't all big. You can "only" get 17k into Saints, but you could get over 20k in both Leeds and Bradford's grounds. Did it make one more interesting than the other? It's just one of them things.
I don't understand why you would say it "doesn't work" either? What doesn't work about it? How is that a fact?

And again, you keep harking on about this "one Hull side" and what it would be like. Rovers weren't in the SL for nearly a decade of the time Hull were. We still attract the overseas players. We still produce youngsters. We're still an average side. But we make more money and have much larger crowds than we've ever had in our history since they came back. It's a nice theory to think that adding two clubs together will make one super club, but it rarely does. There are many other factors.

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 11 2010, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I won't call you drunk or suggest your a ranter.

...but you will tell me I'm "looking up my own bum". Respect is a two way street. You lost a lot of people's respect when you decided to troll a few months back. And you didn't start your discussion with me on this thread in the most respectful of ways, so if you want me to show you respect then I expect you to show me the same. I aren't bothered either way.
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#158 The Parksider

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Sep 12 2010, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You lost a lot of people's respect when you decided to troll a few months back.


Funny how desperate you have to get to try to get the upper hand in what should be a civil debate. Funny how I aren't banned from the board, but obviously it suits you in this instance to believe the nonsense you post, and nicely takes the debate completely onto something different and away from what I think is a bit of a losing position for you - Stick to the debate and don't be so childish and spitefull. I suggest you apologise for the sleight?


#159 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 11:31 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 12 2010, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Funny how desperate you have to get to try to get the upper hand in what should be a civil debate. Funny how I aren't banned from the board, but obviously it suits you in this instance to believe the nonsense you post, and nicely takes the debate completely onto something different and away from what I think is a bit of a losing position for you - Stick to the debate and don't be so childish and spitefull. I suggest you apologise for the sleight?

Parky, you brought up respect, not me. You made the first disrespectful comment, not me. Don't go getting all upset that you aren't getting the respect you want, because when you basically tell someone they're talking out of their arris when only reading half a post (then realising all the points you argued were already covered in the part of the post you couldn't be bothered to read) what do you expect?

I don't want the upper hand. I really aren't that bothered. Discuss the points I've made and we can forget all about this meaningless "respect" discussion. But you won't be getting an apology from me as I've done nothing wrong. So let's move on...
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#160 JohnM

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 08:21 AM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 11 2010, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So we want to be like two foreign sports with tiny crowds?


Keep up, sonny! biggrin.gif

my post was in response to one claiming that no other sports managed without P and R.

anyway, they do better than Leigh " league attendances alone were approaching 500,000 in the season just finished, with average crowds above 2,000 overall, and more than 4,000 in Nottingham. That overall average is bigger than Conference (BlueSquare Premier) football in England, above any domestic rugby union league below Guinness Premiership level, and on a day-to-day or monthly basis, is bigger than the number of people paying to watch County Championship cricket."




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