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Do we deserve to be in the National Papers?


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#21 JohnM

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 07:26 AM

a snapshot only an TV not printed media but on a recent BBC TV sports segment the top stories were

International Soccer
International crikit
International womens union
International hockey
National Soccer
Regional Zurich/Guinness/Aviva rugby union
Regional SuperLeague

Union is as regional as league at the pro level but because it has an international dimension: lots of games on a regular and frequent basis, it gets more attention. You can hardy call what we do an international programme, though for most of the games listed above, it is the pinnacle of the game


#22 bowes

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 07:35 AM

QUOTE (JohnM @ Sep 11 2010, 08:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Union is as regional as league at the pro level

If you're going to tell lies at least make them believable, talking rubbish ruins your whole argument, soccer is actually less national at premiership level than RU if anything, the South West, Yorkshire and East Midlands are hardly premiership soccer hotbeds (used to be for the latter 2), where's most clubs are London or North West. RU has Premiership teams in 8 out of 9 English regions and a team from the 9th region (West Midlands) just got relegated.

#23 JohnM

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 07:40 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Sep 11 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you're going to tell lies at least make them believable, talking rubbish ruins your whole argument, soccer is actually less national at premiership level than RU if anything, the South West, Yorkshire and East Midlands are hardly premiership soccer hotbeds (used to be for the latter 2), where's most clubs are London or North West. RU has Premiership teams in 8 out of 9 English regions and a team from the 9th region (West Midlands) just got relegated.



...and breathe...better now? biggrin.gif

#24 thirteenthman

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:13 AM

To answer the question in the OP, while we deserve to be in the national media, it would be hard to argue the case for the coverage to be more extensive. Why? Simply because at national level, RL isn't as popular as other sports. This comes down to the sport being centred around the club game. In other sports the main focus of attention is on the international game - Football, Cricket and RU being the main examples. Until we make the international game the focus of attention, or at least more important than it is now, nothing will change.

I know a lot of people on here are convinced it's just a big RU led conspiracy. 10 or 20 years ago it was probably true. But things have moved on. Comparisons are made between crowds like 15,000 for Leicester V Northampton and 85,000 for Warrington V Leeds. The important comparison should be 70,000 or so for the England RU team and the 20,000 for the England RL team. And that's even before you take into account the crowds for Wales and Scotland.

International competition is where you pull in the interest of the general sports fan. It's these people that RL has left behind. Pull them in with big international matches, and their interest may spread down to club level and hopefully even amateur level and participating in the game itself.

The Eddie Waring documentary midweek made a telling point. Every few weeks upto 1996, RL was broadcast into everybody's home. The sport picked up a lot of interest from the casual sports fan all over the country. That, sadly, was partially abandoned. RL's visibilty to the public at large has reduced, and along with it the interest. Cricket has faced the same dilemma - go for the money from Sky or keep the terrestrial coverage with the widespread coverage. The jury's out on the effects on cricket, but RL definatley seems to have suffered.


#25 bowes

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE (JohnM @ Sep 11 2010, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...and breathe...better now? biggrin.gif

You have to admit you were lying though?

It is beyond the wildest dreams of even Parksider that RL outside the north could be even nearly as big as RU in the north


#26 JohnM

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:46 AM

QUOTE (thirteenthman @ Sep 11 2010, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Eddie Waring documentary midweek made a telling point. Every few weeks upto 1996, RL was broadcast into everybody's home. The sport picked up a lot of interest from the casual sports fan all over the country. That, sadly, was partially abandoned. RL's visibilty to the public at large has reduced, and along with it the interest.


Agree very much but one question. Was the game rewarded properly for providing programme content? It seems to me that when the game was on free to air BBC TV, attendances at games fell and overall, including whatever the BBC paid, income was reduced.

#27 deluded pom?

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:52 AM

It would be interesting to see how much ALL other sports coverage has suffered since the advent of the all singing all dancing all media consuming FA Premiership began. Hull is actually an A63 corridor city wink.gif

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#28 JohnM

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 09:32 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Sep 11 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You have to admit you were lying though?

It is beyond the wildest dreams of even Parksider that RL outside the north could be even nearly as big as RU in the north



you mean lying as in "you'l be hearing from Carter-Ruck"? tongue.gif

I've just checked what I wrote because at my age, my short term memory isn't what it was. I wrote "Union is as regional as league at the pro level" not "RL outside the north could be even nearly as big as RU in the north"

#29 bowes

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 11:59 AM

QUOTE (JohnM @ Sep 11 2010, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you mean lying as in "you'l be hearing from Carter-Ruck"? tongue.gif

I've just checked what I wrote because at my age, my short term memory isn't what it was. I wrote "Union is as regional as league at the pro level" not "RL outside the north could be even nearly as big as RU in the north"

Well okay then explain to me how RU having full time professional teams in all 9 regions of England is just as regional at the pro level as RL only having full time pro sides in 3 regions, and even including semi pro sides only has them in 4 out of 9 regions and that's a stretch including a side that is semi-pro in little more than name.

Seriously how can your statement be anything but an extreme lie, not just a small one, but an absolute extreme black is white level one? You may as well say RL is bigger than soccer on the grounds you like it more and it would be no more a lie.

I know you obviously like RL more than RU, as do I, but that's no excuse to make up childish lies

Edited by bowes, 11 September 2010 - 12:00 PM.


#30 Allan Marsden

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 02:19 PM

What I cannot fathom is that as far as I know newpapers struggle more than ever circulation wise YET none try to differentiate from their competitors. Surely, a paper that targets sports not catered for by its rivals could attract more readers by doing that. So a paper offering proper RL coverage, proper Angling coverage, proper Boxing coverage and so forth would get readers on that basis.

#31 JohnM

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Sep 11 2010, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well okay then explain to me how RU having full time professional teams in all 9 regions of England is just as regional at the pro level as RL only having full time pro sides in 3 regions, and even including semi pro sides only has them in 4 out of 9 regions and that's a stretch including a side that is semi-pro in little more than name.

Seriously how can your statement be anything but an extreme lie, not just a small one, but an absolute extreme black is white level one? You may as well say RL is bigger than soccer on the grounds you like it more and it would be no more a lie.

I know you obviously like RL more than RU, as do I, but that's no excuse to make up childish lies



What is wrong with you? Why are you choosing to turn this discussion into personal abuse?

well, just lookie here!

No unlawful or objectionable content. Unlawful, harassing, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harmful, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, racially offensive or otherwise objectionable material is not acceptable.

Edited by JohnM, 11 September 2010 - 02:59 PM.


#32 deluded pom?

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 03:03 PM

QUOTE (Allan Marsden @ Sep 11 2010, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What I cannot fathom is that as far as I know newpapers struggle more than ever circulation wise YET none try to differentiate from their competitors. Surely, a paper that targets sports not catered for by its rivals could attract more readers by doing that. So a paper offering proper RL coverage, proper Angling coverage, proper Boxing coverage and so forth would get readers on that basis.



Still wouldn't work Allan. Everyone knows the whole world is interested in the Premiership. wink.gif

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#33 West Country Eagle

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 04:38 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Sep 11 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you're going to tell lies at least make them believable, talking rubbish ruins your whole argument, soccer is actually less national at premiership level than RU if anything, the South West, Yorkshire and East Midlands are hardly premiership soccer hotbeds (used to be for the latter 2), where's most clubs are London or North West. RU has Premiership teams in 8 out of 9 English regions and a team from the 9th region (West Midlands) just got relegated.


Come on! There are some pretty big Championship soccer clubs in the East Midlands - Forest, Leicester, Derby etc. There are two union prem clubs.

If you look at the union premiership, outside of the East Mids/M4 corridor/South West axis get relatively poor crowds compared to lower league soccer and RL.

I think looking at the 'where pro clubs are based' thing is a bit simplistic. These days plenty of people move around the country, and there are plenty of people from 'traditional' RL strongholds (Yorks, Lancs, Cumbria) that live elsewhere. Plus, there is a national amateur structure, the student game, the forces etc. This means there ARE people who are interested in League throughout the country. Arguably League is a more national game now than it has ever been.

We deserve coverage just as much as many other sports. We don't help ourselves and there are issues of bias at newspapers etc that it's a struggle to overcome. I mean, last Monday the Guardian's sport section devoted the middle three/four pages to union match reports. Is there really that much interest in the sport? I'd argue not.
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#34 Ashamanic

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 04:52 PM

And how do these figures compare with other sports? Obviously football has a much wider base, but is Rugby Union any less confined?

#35 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 05:05 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Sep 11 2010, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well okay then explain to me how RU having full time professional teams in all 9 regions of England is just as regional at the pro level as RL only having full time pro sides in 3 regions, and even including semi pro sides only has them in 4 out of 9 regions and that's a stretch including a side that is semi-pro in little more than name.

Seriously how can your statement be anything but an extreme lie, not just a small one, but an absolute extreme black is white level one? You may as well say RL is bigger than soccer on the grounds you like it more and it would be no more a lie.

I know you obviously like RL more than RU, as do I, but that's no excuse to make up childish lies


The strength of the game is definitely in the south.

The 3 northern clubs first home games got 5,000 5,500 and 7,500. This is against the Aviva league average of 12,000.

Of course it is bigger and more spread but as far as the Aviva league goes the real interest lies in the south.

When you consider that Exeter are new this year and that the 3 Northern clubs are not well supported, it is a fairly regional league. Compared to the amount of press it gets, how many people do you think are genuinely interested in the results of the Aviva Premiership. I would suggest there are a handful of people in the north.

League clearly deserves to be in the National press in comparison and it would be if the M62 happened to run through London.

Edited by Maximus Decimus, 11 September 2010 - 05:06 PM.


#36 bowes

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 10:28 PM

QUOTE (West Country Eagle @ Sep 11 2010, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think looking at the 'where pro clubs are based' thing is a bit simplistic. These days plenty of people move around the country, and there are plenty of people from 'traditional' RL strongholds (Yorks, Lancs, Cumbria) that live elsewhere. Plus, there is a national amateur structure, the student game, the forces etc. This means there ARE people who are interested in League throughout the country. Arguably League is a more national game now than it has ever been.

I have no issue with that, at schools level RL has a better spread (it gets worse as you move up the pyramid, things will improve as these players grow up) but he said at the professional level which is just a lie

Edited by bowes, 11 September 2010 - 10:29 PM.


#37 bowes

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 10:31 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Sep 11 2010, 06:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The strength of the game is definitely in the south.

The 3 northern clubs first home games got 5,000 5,500 and 7,500. This is against the Aviva league average of 12,000.

Of course it is bigger and more spread but as far as the Aviva league goes the real interest lies in the south.

When you consider that Exeter are new this year and that the 3 Northern clubs are not well supported, it is a fairly regional league. Compared to the amount of press it gets, how many people do you think are genuinely interested in the results of the Aviva Premiership. I would suggest there are a handful of people in the north.

League clearly deserves to be in the National press in comparison and it would be if the M62 happened to run through London.

3/4 of the population is in what you're calling the south though and Harlequins would kill for any of those crowds, not great admittedly. Rugby League isn't even well spread in the north (nor is RU in the South East in fact, the 2 areas RU is insignificant are in fact East Anglia and the South Coast (excluding South West of course)

#38 bowes

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 10:36 PM

QUOTE (JohnM @ Sep 11 2010, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What is wrong with you? Why are you choosing to turn this discussion into personal abuse?

well, just lookie here!

No unlawful or objectionable content. Unlawful, harassing, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harmful, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, racially offensive or otherwise objectionable material is not acceptable.

Stop abusing the rules to avoid admitting you were wrong. A lie is a deliberate mistruth by definition and I had already debunked this myth earlier in the thread before you repeated it. If you want to try to oppose my claim with facts then I will welcome that as this is a discussion board, instead you said a meaningless comment and made no attempt to debate whatsoever that if I wanted to push the rules I could claim is equally an abusive comment.

RU played full time professionally in 9 out of 9 English regions, including 1/4 of the top flight in the north where there's 1/4 of the population.

RL played full time professionally in 3 out of 9 regions, all bar one of these clubs in a straight line and the other club being very poorly supported.

What in that do you disagree with?

If you don't want to debate then this stops here, but I'd rather you debated my points on an individual basis then we could have a more civil debate.

Edited by bowes, 11 September 2010 - 10:57 PM.


#39 nath155

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 11:28 PM

why are the crusaders down as northern

#40 JohnM

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 06:53 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Sep 11 2010, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd rather you debated my points on an individual basis then we could have a more civil debate.


I'm certainly not going to "debate" anything with you, seeing as you indulge in personal abuse and incivility.




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