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James Graham does he run the ball enough


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25 replies to this topic

#21 Dave T

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 10:15 AM

Graham is good at what he does, but I still don't class him as the best prop in Sl and never have (I'm sure he'll be gutted!).

My issue with his style of play is that his actual metres per carry is pretty low, and nowhere near the other top props knocking around. Also, and this was seen the other night, his play the ball speed is often very slow. He often gets up looking as though he has been shot and slows the momentum down considerably.

His stats look excellent because he plays most games for a long time. Whereas other clubs use 4 props and share the workload effectively, Saints are actually settling for fewer yards per carry, when actually by spelling him I suspect they could get even more from him.

I suppose it depends what you want from your props, but personally I want them to make the hard yards, and have a prop who can up the tempo when he comes onto the field and give the team a burst of momentum.

There is no doubt he is a very good tough player, but I'm not sure he is being used to the best of his ability.

#22 Rubber Schnib

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 02:54 PM

QUOTE (bewareshadows @ Sep 11 2010, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why?


Because game theory is a field of mathematics - if you want to invoke it to demonstrate that Graham should do something other than what he's best at, you need to show your workings.

Game theory might just as easily show exactly the opposite of what you suggest - without showing the actual calculations, it doesn't mean anything.

QUOTE
In my post I make the point of saying that teams start to expect Graham to offload which makes his running even more effective. My point is that with game theory the more elements to your game the more the opposition may have to anticipate which can make your strongest elements such as running even more effective.


You've not shown this, though. There's no workings. You might as well say that set theory suggests Graham should play on the wing, with zero supporting calculations.

QUOTE (NS)
I suspect that the issue here is that everyone suspects that Cunningham will "barrel over" but nobody can do much about it and hence the two situations are quite different.


Everybody suspects Graham will run hard and make top yards, and yet nobody seems to be able to do much about it. Hence the situations are not as different as you suggest.

People are well aware of Graham's game, just as they are Cunningham's at close range. I have no doubt they (ineffectively) try to stop him doing it, just as they do Cunningham.
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#23 bewareshadows

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE (Rubber Schnib @ Sep 12 2010, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because game theory is a field of mathematics - if you want to invoke it to demonstrate that Graham should do something other than what he's best at, you need to show your workings.

Game theory might just as easily show exactly the opposite of what you suggest - without showing the actual calculations, it doesn't mean anything.



You've not shown this, though. There's no workings. You might as well say that set theory suggests Graham should play on the wing, with zero supporting calculations.



Everybody suspects Graham will run hard and make top yards, and yet nobody seems to be able to do much about it. Hence the situations are not as different as you suggest.

People are well aware of Graham's game, just as they are Cunningham's at close range. I have no doubt they (ineffectively) try to stop him doing it, just as they do Cunningham.


You seam to be arguing points that I'm not trying to make. Either way I'll leave it as I don't seam to be clearing anything up by explaining myself.

Super League the only place in the world where people still believe that less competitors and a closed market to new competition will improve the quality of the product.

Even the Chinese and the Cubans gave up on these marxist principles years ago.


SL with a reduced number of competitors and a closed market = North Korea.

#24 FearTheVee

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:39 AM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Sep 12 2010, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My issue with his style of play is that his actual metres per carry is pretty low, and nowhere near the other top props knocking around.


That's because he takes the ball to the line and passes it a lot.

If he just barged into the tackle every time like most other props, his metres per carry would be far, far higher than they are.

If you look at the stats for the game against Australia at the DW last year, he averaged nearly 10m per carry against the Kangaroos, because he wasn't passing the ball at the line as much. That takes some doing.

#25 Dave T

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE (FearTheVee @ Sep 14 2010, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's because he takes the ball to the line and passes it a lot.

If he just barged into the tackle every time like most other props, his metres per carry would be far, far higher than they are.

If you look at the stats for the game against Australia at the DW last year, he averaged nearly 10m per carry against the Kangaroos, because he wasn't passing the ball at the line as much. That takes some doing.

I did consider this, and was unsure as to what the definition of a carry was. I didn't believe these halfback style offloads he made would count, although when looking at someone like Lee Briers, it says he does around 12 carries a game so that may disprove my theory!

My point still stands in terms of style of props I prefer, although that is simply an opinion thing.

#26 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:24 PM

QUOTE (Rubber Schnib @ Sep 12 2010, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because game theory is a field of mathematics - if you want to invoke it to demonstrate that Graham should do something other than what he's best at, you need to show your workings.

Game theory might just as easily show exactly the opposite of what you suggest - without showing the actual calculations, it doesn't mean anything.



You've not shown this, though. There's no workings. You might as well say that set theory suggests Graham should play on the wing, with zero supporting calculations.



Everybody suspects Graham will run hard and make top yards, and yet nobody seems to be able to do much about it. Hence the situations are not as different as you suggest.

People are well aware of Graham's game, just as they are Cunningham's at close range. I have no doubt they (ineffectively) try to stop him doing it, just as they do Cunningham.


I disagree with this, you do not need calculations to make game theory work. It works fine with using very simple numbers like 0, 1 and 2 or even no numbers at all. All you need are the words "domination" and "mixed strategy" to explain why what is true of Cunningham isn't true of Graham.

Only on this forum, could you discuss hit-ups, scoots etc in the context of game theory.

Edited by Northern Sol, 15 September 2010 - 08:25 PM.





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