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Lewis Blocked by Kiwis and Australia?


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#81 thirteenthman

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:33 AM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Sep 17 2010, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The quicker Australian born players or Citizens are discouraged for playing for the Mickey mouse "Heritage" concept the better.
It will go a long way to stopping the farce of the last World cup where dozens of them represented nations with small or little links to them just so they could get a run in that competition and bolster and Islander or Kiwi teams.

Hopefully if its cleared up the 2013 World Cup will not have the likes of Jarryd Hayne and Ashton Simms representing Fiji and it will be all local products.

Of course then the RFL would have to take the same line with Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The Lebanon, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Malta teams would all go down the pan as well. The French aren't much cop, so we can get rid of them, and as for PNG, well that's practically a third world country, so they can go as well. According to our Aussie friends half the NZ team come from Australia so we can get rid of them, which leaves us with England v Australia every year. Great idea. rolleyes.gif


#82 dallymessenger

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Sep 17 2010, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe it will revert to a 3 nations tournament and Kangaroo tours again?
Not forgetting the fact France are always chasing ex Aussies to make them not come last in World Cups.


or maybe we could revert to the 1970s WC format where it went over 4 or 5 years with tests counting as pool games and then a one off final?

seriously the WC that was held in australia really wasnt a success, especially if you ignore the crowds, tv ratings or fantastic football on display.




#83 boxhead

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:50 AM

I blame the Convicts for everything.
They should stop sending their castoffs to England as well, its depriving our local talent from coming through.
They stuff everything they touch.

Why do they have to send their players everywhere?

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Edited by AndyCapp, 17 September 2010 - 09:52 AM.


#84 dallymessenger

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:51 AM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Sep 17 2010, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I blame the Convicts for everything.
They should stop sending their castoffs to England as well, its depriving our local talent from coming through.
They stuff everything they touch.
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


if only we brought back P&R everything would be fixed.

bloody ARL.

#85 Odsal Outlaw

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:21 AM

Joking aside, I dont have an issue with anybody playing for any nation they qualify for, whether its Hayne for Fiji or Fa'savalu for England. Just don't play for another one once you've made your choice. If your dream is a Kangaroo jersey then fair do's, but hold out for it and don't represent someone else in the meantime. It just cheapens the jersey.

Understand the points around World Cups etc. being competitive and I personally loved every minute of Australia '08. Maybe with a one nation rule some of those countries wouldn't have been as strong, but it wouldnt have made their groups less competitve as we had a super group taking care of the big guns. On the other hand if they had still got some of the heritage players then it would be even better for the long-term growth/competitiveness of their national team.

There is defo two schools of thought on this one and both have valid arguments to an extent, but I tihnk the main thing we should focus on is growing the international game credibly. Maybe country swutching is less noticed by those less close to our game, in which respect you could almost condone it, but it will always leave us open to ridicule and I defo don't like it!

I'd also feel a bit cheated as say a Fiji fan if a player then decides he's too good for them after doing all the badge kissing etc. after scroing tries for them (Hayne!).
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#86 Futtocks

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:10 PM

QUOTE (Odsal Outlaw @ Sep 17 2010, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Understand the points around World Cups etc. being competitive and I personally loved every minute of Australia '08. Maybe with a one nation rule some of those countries wouldn't have been as strong, but it wouldnt have made their groups less competitve as we had a super group taking care of the big guns.

The current rules made for some fantastic matches, but I remember at the time watching Michael Jennings tear up the pitch for Tonga and wondering how long it would be before Australia tapped him on the shoulder, hinting at a chance to play in Origin.

A solution that benefits the game as a whole will be a long time coming, I fear.

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#87 boxhead

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:24 PM

QUOTE (Futtocks @ Sep 17 2010, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The current rules made for some fantastic matches, but I remember at the time watching Michael Jennings tear up the pitch for Tonga and wondering how long it would be before Australia tapped him on the shoulder, hinting at a chance to play in Origin.

A solution that benefits the game as a whole will be a long time coming, I fear.


But players like Hayne and Jennings that are born in Western Sydney consider themselves Australian, Hayne only has one Fijian parent.
They both knew they were allowed to pad out the Island teams without jeopardizing their futures with Australia.
If they were told make a choice and its final neither would have played for Island teams.

In simple terms its like someone saying there is a big game coming to town and you have not been picked for the first team, you have another chance to be involved with another team to give them a hand would you like to?
Answer YES
Nothing more or less.


#88 dallymessenger

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:26 PM

there are 2 choices here

1. have strict eligibility rules which dont allow players to change. the result will be no aussie player will choose a minor nation for fear of losing an origin berth. bye bye every WC team except england, nz, png and us

2. keep the rules in place and continue to have brilliant WCs like the last one

Edited by dallymessenger, 17 September 2010 - 01:28 PM.


#89 dallymessenger

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:27 PM

jarred hayne missed the aussie team that year, was doing nothing and was allowed to play for fiji.

his inclusion sparked a great fun by fiji into the semis and from that RL got a good boost in fiji

if he wasnt allowed to go back to australia he wouldnt have played for fiji.



#90 Odsal Outlaw

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:55 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Sep 17 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
there are 2 choices here

1. have strict eligibility rules which dont allow players to change. the result will be no aussie player will choose a minor nation for fear of losing an origin berth. bye bye every WC team except england, nz, png and us

2. keep the rules in place and continue to have brilliant WCs like the last one


I'd go for option one. If you want to be an Aussie then fine, hold out for your jersey; or play for your heritage team or place of birth in some instances and then stick to them. I'd be happier if aussie players did not chose minor nations just for a run out. We'd still have great WC's if we use the super group formats as teams in other groups will all be on an even playing field. I reckon a Samoa v Tonga game would be just as good and enteratining without the Aussies/Kiwis in their side. Same would apply to Scotland etc. with the likes of Brough, Gilmour etc.
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#91 deluded pom?

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:55 PM

As OO said there are two schools of thought on the subject of eligibility but the fact remains that Australia (and in Tony Williams case New Zealand) have chosen to ignore the RULES THAT ARE IN PLACE NOW to entice players to declare for Australia when they have not been stood down for a two year period since their last game for another nation after the last WC. All the discussion on which is the best eligibility rule for the game as a whole won't change the fact that Australia don't care one jot for the RLIF rules and simply continue to do what they feel is best for Australia and hang the rest.

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#92 TheObserver

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:07 PM

Did Tony Williams actually play in the Pacific Cup last year? It appears not. According to David Middleton's Big League Annual of 2009, in the Pacific Cup 2009 review, he is not listed in the final Tongan squad, and is not listed in the team lists for either Tonga game. The team lists for the games were:
Toshio Laiseni (Papakura)
Etuate Uaisale (Parramatta)
Siuatonga Likiliki (Warriors)
Sione Tongia (Auckland Vulcans, Game 1)/Pita Maile (Melbourne, Game 2)
Sam Huihahau (Canberra/Souths-Logan) - in 2010, now called Sam Latu.
Feleti Mateo (Parramatta)
Eddie Paea (Cronulla)
Richard Fa'aoso
Kim Uasi
Sione Tovo (Game 1)/Inoke Tapa'atoutai (Game 2)
Ukuma Ta'ai
Valu Nasio (Game 1)/Willie Mataka (Game 2)
Atelea Vea

BENCH:
Joel Taufa'ao
Sioaia Vave
Pakisonasi Afu
Soane Palau (Game 1)/Valu Nasio (Game 2)

So if Williams did not play last year, he could be eligible for the Kangaroos this year, but it would depend when the two year period is counted from. That aspect of the RLIF rules isn't clear - whether it is from the last game, or whether it runs in blocks e.g. 2007-2008, 2009-2010. The NSW Supreme Court judgement on Moi Moi and Tuiaki's RLWC 2008 bid to play for Tonga suggests that may be two years since his last match:

QUOTE
The pair, who've played for Tonga previously, were initially ruled ineligible for the World Cup because they turned out for New Zealand last year and players are only able to transfer international allegiance once every two years. However, Justice White ruled that two-year time limit expires on November 12 dating back to the last time they played for Tonga. That means Parramatta prop Moimoi and Wests Tigers winger Tuiaki can play in the semi-finals, but not before.


Given Williams' last Tonga match was against Scotland in RLWC, on 8th November 2008, Williams would only be eligible to play for Kangaroos on 8th November 2010, which would only leave the 4N final on 13th November.

#93 roughyedspud

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:25 PM

if he did'nt actually play then, unfortunately,he's well within his rights,under RLIF RULES,to switch.....its the same rules that allowed chris bridge & ben harrison to switch from ireland to england...

however akuila uate did play for Fiji last year in the pacific cup,scoring 4tries in 2 games and is'nt under RLIF RULES allowed to switch.


QUOTE
Given Williams' last Tonga match was against Scotland in RLWC, on 8th November 2008, Williams would only be eligible to play for Kangaroos on 8th November 2010, which would only leave the 4N final on 13th November.


it does'nt work like that...ben harrison played for ireland in the world cup and switch to england right after and was eligible right away.....


Edited by roughyedspud, 17 September 2010 - 11:35 PM.

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#94 TheObserver

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 01:49 AM

QUOTE (roughyedspud @ Sep 18 2010, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if he did'nt actually play then, unfortunately,he's well within his rights,under RLIF RULES,to switch.....its the same rules that allowed chris bridge & ben harrison to switch from ireland to england...

however akuila uate did play for Fiji last year in the pacific cup,scoring 4tries in 2 games and is'nt under RLIF RULES allowed to switch.


Firstly, Harrison did not set foot on the field for England, so the switch was not realised. However, Bridge did step on to the field for England, and so made the switch. Thirdly, RLIF allows players the right to apply for special dispensation, but it is not guaranteed

EDIT - both of us are correct, roughyed. According to the RLIF website's rules on International Eligibility:

QUOTE ("RLIF")
A player who is eligible to play for more than one country shall be entitled to elect for which country he wishes to play.
When a player plays a Senior International Match for a country, he is deemed to have elected to play for that country. Once an election is made the player may not play Senior representative rugby league for any other country until the end of the next World Cup tournament, or the expiry of two years, whichever is earlier (Election Period).


The NSW Supreme Court judgement into Moi Moi and Tuiaki (see the previous post) ruled two years between games.

No Country for Uate

QUOTE
Uate played two Pacific Cup games for Fiji in November, against the Cook Islands and Tonga, and those appearances mean he is considered a Fiji-qualified player until the next World Cup in 2013.

Carr said Uate would need to apply for special dispensation from the Rugby League International Federation, revoking his Fijian allegiance, to be considered for representative honours in Australia.

"He's played for Fiji since the [2008] World Cup, so under the rules, he has elected to play for Fiji, because you've got an election period that goes World Cup to World Cup," Carr said yesterday.

"So currently he's not eligible.


But then:
Akuila Uate no chance to represent Country Origin in 2010

QUOTE
Carr said there were "some provisions" for players to switch nationalities but the primary criterion was a two-year gap between representing each country.
If Uate applied for an exemption and agreed not to play for Fiji, he would have to wait until November 2011 before he could be considered for the Australian representative system.


Fijian Flyer Uate sweats on allegiance call as Kangaroo jumper beckons

QUOTE
KNIGHTS flyer Akuila Uate was a shock inclusion yesterday in the Prime Ministers XIII train-on squad despite still being ineligible to represent Australia.

<snipped>

The Prime Ministers XIII is an invitational line-up but has traditionally featured only players who are eligible for Australia.

Uates selection is contentious because his application to change his national affiliation from Fiji to Australia has not yet been approved by the Rugby League International Federation.

A request to swap allegiance was lodged by his manager three weeks ago but is still under consideration.

If it is processed before the Australian squad for the Four Nations tournament is named on October 4, Uate could be a Kangaroos bolter.

But Australian Rugby League chief executive Geoff Carr said there was a chance Uates request might not be considered, let alone approved, within the next four weeks.

His management have put a consideration for change of election, so as not to disadvantage him, weve allowed the selectors to pick him [for the Prime Ministers XIII], Carr said.

But whether there is a decision before the Four Nations series is out of my control.

Theres no guarantee theyll have a decision before then.


If the selectors decision to bend the rules for Uate seems unusual it is not without precedent.

In 2008, Parramatta lock Feleti Mateo was picked for City Origin as he pondered changing his allegiance from Tonga to Australia.

In the end he decided to stick with Tonga
, whom he represented at the 2008 World Cup.

He [Uate] is not in the Kangaroo train-on squad, because he cant be, but we figured that we could give him similar treatment to Feleti, with an application pending, Carr said.

If there is a decision before the Four Nations and that isnt inevitable, it may or may not happen hes still eligible for the Prime Ministers.

<snipped>

At the previous World Cup, in 2008, players were able to switch nationality at short notice. Jarryd Hayne, for instance, represented Fiji when he was not needed by Australia.

But the RLIF has since tightened the qualification rules so that, as Carr said, you cant just chop and change.


The most interesting article, definitely worth a read:

Uate claims hardship in Australian bid

QUOTE
The Federation may accept his right to switch countries once which is permissible under the rules or it might not.

Edited by TheObserver, 18 September 2010 - 02:34 AM.


#95 TheObserver

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 02:25 AM

QUOTE (nadera78 @ Sep 16 2010, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If the RLIF insisted on a stand down period then I could live with it if it was strictly enforced. A player should have to write to the RLIF stating that from the date of his letter he intended to sit out a period of time (perhaps a world cup cycle?) and from that point on represent x country.


I'd agree with that. I think eligibility should be binding based on any full international match, not whether it counts toward a World Cup or not. Personally, I'd tweak the current rules slightly to allow different periods of transfer depending on the gap in tiers jumped. So a transfer between national teams on:
same tier = 3 years stand down
one tier above or below
two or more tiers above or below = 1 year

I'd split the current full test members into two tiers
Tier 1 = Kangaroos, Kiwis, England, a future combined Pacific Islands team
Tier 2 = France, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cooks, Fiji, PNG, Samoa, Tonga
Tier 3 = Lebanon, Russia, Serbia, USA
Tier 4 = the rest

Like cricket and the ICC's eligibility rule, I'd suggest that a player could switch to play for only one other, different national team, but could return to the original national team after another stand-down i.e. you can't play for three national teams - which players have done in international football (Alfredo Di Stefano), Rugby Union (Topo Rodriguez). Cricket Ed Joyce played for Ireland, then England, and is looking to play for Ireland again. Cricket's ICC allows that.

FWIW, I'd like to see players like Williams and Uate play for Tonga and Fiji, and hopefully stick with them. However, I think the game has to provide incentive for them to do that, but if they then want to switch, then they stand down as above.

QUOTE
On the more general point of the PI nations, I'd suggest people take a look at the actions of the Cook Islands over the past few years. They've worked slowly, deliberately, to build a team from the ground up. They've used a mixture of players born/raised in the Cooks, Australia and New Zealand and developed a group that knows one another well and has played together for some time. In fact many of the team in last years Pacific Cup played together for the Cooks in their U-16's and 18's, such is the system they've put in place (despite their lack of financial clout).

Compare that to the likes of Tonga and Samoa, who wait until Australia and New Zealand have picked their squads before selecting their own from what's left. That means their teams change quite drastically from one year to the next, there is never any consistency in selection or performance, and it is near impossible for them to genuinely develop a team or a national programme.

The results are there for all to see in the 2008 RLWC and the 2009 Pacific Cup. There is only one way to see genuine internatinal development, and it is by looking at the Cook Islands and Fiji.


I agree that Fiji and Cook Islands' Leagues attention to grassroots development has been commendable, their structures are well planned and structured, and CI is producing home grown players, Kevin Iro and Matthew Rua seem to have done a lot there. In part, Cook Islands had relatively few heritage players to choose from, so they may have felt compelled to develop local talent. The Cooks tried to get Karmichael Hunt to play for Cooks in the Pacific Cup last year before he switched to AFL, he wanted to play, but the ARL blocked him, as they did with Israel Folau and Tonga this year.

Either way, Cook Islands have put good structures into place and performed remarkably, and the other PIs will hopefully learn from them.

Edited by TheObserver, 18 September 2010 - 02:46 AM.


#96 roughyedspud

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 03:03 AM

QUOTE
Firstly, Harrison did not set foot on the field for England, so the switch was not realised. However, Bridge did step on to the field for England, and so made the switch. Thirdly, RLIF allows players the right to apply for special dispensation, but it is not guaranteed


chris bridge did'nt play for ireland in the 2008 RLWC though..


the rule was after the world cup you could switch...bridge & harrison did,neither needed special dispensation....its the same rule that allowed hayne to switch back from fiji and jennings from tonga...to play in the 4nations last year for australia

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#97 dallymessenger

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:43 AM

QUOTE (Odsal Outlaw @ Sep 17 2010, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd go for option one. If you want to be an Aussie then fine, hold out for your jersey; or play for your heritage team or place of birth in some instances and then stick to them. I'd be happier if aussie players did not chose minor nations just for a run out. We'd still have great WC's if we use the super group formats as teams in other groups will all be on an even playing field. I reckon a Samoa v Tonga game would be just as good and enteratining without the Aussies/Kiwis in their side. Same would apply to Scotland etc. with the likes of Brough, Gilmour etc.


well you can forget about any decent world cups for 20 years.

the last world cup was brilliant. surprisingly the games between the small nations because of the addition of aussies in them

#98 dallymessenger

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:47 AM

http://www.fijitimes....aspx?id=156089

posted elsewhere

now how much of that is due to their success at the last world cup, making the semis

success due to aussie players like jarred hayne



#99 dallymessenger

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:53 AM

indeed lebanon did the same thing fielding a squad packed with aussies, in the 2000 RLWC i think

off the back of playing in the WC they went back and helped the domestic game in lebanon

#100 Odsal Outlaw

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:11 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Sep 18 2010, 05:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
well you can forget about any decent world cups for 20 years.

the last world cup was brilliant. surprisingly the games between the small nations because of the addition of aussies in them


I dont agree, the games between the small nations would have been just as competitive with or without aussies because both teams would have been in the same boat. I was at Parramatta for the Samoa vs. Ireland game which was agreat spectacle with a decent crowd, would it have been jjust as good without all the 'heritage players'? Yeah I think so, cos neither would have had them!!!
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