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A Question from a RU Fan.


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#41 The Parksider

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:09 PM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 18 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1. What is the point of the scrum? There's no actual physical competition involved anymore so why not scrap it?

2. The forwards in RL? They dont seem to do much different than the backs, how do you life long supporters differentiate between both?


1. No point, it's a relic of the method of re-starting play, that by rights shoud simply be a tap ball. It remains because people do not like change, even those who favour it won't go too far.

2. RL Forwards, Paleeasina, Crabtree, Griffin, Fielden, Morley.

RL Backs, Riley, Burrow, Eastmond, Brough, Myler.

They clearly are NOT the same.

#42 paley

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:14 PM

The big difference between rugby and union scrums is in rugby you will never hear "brilliant, we knocked on"
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#43 Wolford6

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:38 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 19 2010, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
RL Forwards, Paleeasina, Crabtree, Griffin, Fielden, Morley.

RL Backs, Riley, Burrow, Eastmond, Brough, Myler.

They clearly are NOT the same.



RL Forwards, Paul Johnson, Lee Gilmour, Chris Nero, Sean O'Loughlin, Steve Menzies, Paul Cooke, Michael Monaghan, Kevin Sinfield.

RL Backs, Paul Johnson, Lee Gilmour, Chris Nero, Sean O'Loughlin, Steve Menzies, Paul Cooke, Michael Monaghan, Kevin Sinfield.


They clearly ARE the same.
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Edited by Wolford6, 19 September 2010 - 07:39 PM.

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#44 Wolford6

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:43 PM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 19 2010, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
God knows us Welsh could be really cheesed off with the northern clubs for coming down and taking our best players but that was a different era times move on yes?



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#45 The Parksider

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 08:05 PM

QUOTE (Wolford6 @ Sep 19 2010, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
RL Forwards, Paul Johnson, Lee Gilmour, Chris Nero, Sean O'Loughlin, Steve Menzies, Paul Cooke, Michael Monaghan, Kevin Sinfield.

RL Backs, Paul Johnson, Lee Gilmour, Chris Nero, Sean O'Loughlin, Steve Menzies, Paul Cooke, Michael Monaghan, Kevin Sinfield.


They clearly ARE the same.
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Go on then

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#46 Trojan

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:39 PM

QUOTE (Wolford6 @ Sep 19 2010, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Plenty of room for fat lads in RL. Watch any amateur and semi-pro team and there are quite a few. The honed bodies in superleague are a reflec tion of: -
- full time training and dietary control
- the nature of the game doesnt require a bit of padding which is necessary for players in the RU forwards ... the full-time-RU pros aren't as fat as they were but still carry far more timber than their RL equivalents.
- the continual-interchange system means they only have to play in 20-minute bursts ... bodies can be honed for impact at the expense of endurance.
- the perfunctory scrum and playing in a summer season means no one gets heavily fatigued by playing in heavy mud and prolonged pushing and pulling in scrums and mauls.

Take no notice of the people on this board who disparage the RU scrum; they've never packed down in one and don't understand the value of wearing the opposition down, wearying both sets of forwards to allow the backs to flourish and the raising of morale that a strong pack can engender.

The RU scrum is fantastic to play in, but not so good for spectators ... that's why RL, which had to survive on its gates, reduced it to a mere restart. Most teams now put backs in the scrum to allow harder tackling/running forwards to either reinforce the defence and/or provide a battering ram for the first reception.

Both RU and RL scrums fulfill the separate purposes for which they are intended. I really enjoyed playing in both.

It's just that some posters on this board think that, because RL is great, RU must be rubbish. Perhaps one day they'll grow up.



I have. In fact I've packed down in the scrum at both games, granted in the contested scrum RL days. The argument for RL is that with contested scrums there'd be no wide running back rowers, because they'd be too knackered by the end of the game and more room for the half backs to work in. David Hobbs and the Fev pack combined to score Fev's winning try in the '83 final after a 75 minutes of contested scrums. Having said that the Hull pack were out on their feet. The problem with the contested scrum (again as can be seen in the '83 final) is that they had to be constantly set and re-set, with every other one resulting in a penalty. I don't know which I prefer. The open play in the contested scrum era seems just as fast as it is today. But the game was slower because of all the stoppages at scrums. The scrummage laws at RL haven't changed. There's nothing to stop a side putting out an old fashioned scrummaging six and trying to win by outscrummaging a lighter six. Who knows it could be the start of a whole new era for RL? Or would it force the RFL to update the rules, given what a dangerous place a contested scrum can be?

Edited by Trojan, 19 September 2010 - 09:40 PM.

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#47 dallymessenger

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 07:32 AM

the rugby union scrum hardly ever results in a win against the feed so is essentially meaningless.

but in addition to greatly increasing the risk of neck injury, its slows down the game significantly and stops the flow of play with inevitable penalties for minor infringements

watching a union game always reminds me of the pointlessness of contested scrums

#48 Steve May

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 11:25 AM

QUOTE (Wolford6 @ Sep 19 2010, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
RL Forwards, Paul Johnson, Lee Gilmour, Chris Nero, Sean O'Loughlin, Steve Menzies, Paul Cooke, Michael Monaghan, Kevin Sinfield.

RL Backs, Paul Johnson, Lee Gilmour, Chris Nero, Sean O'Loughlin, Steve Menzies, Paul Cooke, Michael Monaghan, Kevin Sinfield.


They clearly ARE the same.
laugh.gif


Indeed. One of the reasons why rugby league is such a one-dimensional game with little interest outside the cloth capped Neanderthals that inhabit the gloomy mill towns of the North is that all the players are completely interchangeable and all the same size.


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#49 Hornetto

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 11:47 AM

QUOTE (Steve May @ Sep 20 2010, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Indeed. One of the reasons why rugby league is such a one-dimensional game with little interest outside the cloth capped Neanderthals that inhabit the gloomy mill towns of the North is that all the players are completely interchangeable and all the same size.



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#50 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Sep 20 2010, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the rugby union scrum hardly ever results in a win against the feed so is essentially meaningless.

but in addition to greatly increasing the risk of neck injury, its slows down the game significantly and stops the flow of play with inevitable penalties for minor infringements

watching a union game always reminds me of the pointlessness of contested scrums


RL contested scrums were not pointless, and I would estimate that at least 20% went against the head on average.

RU scrums are more stable that is why they hardly ever win against the feed. However they are there to tire forwards out

#51 timhammonds

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 11:55 AM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Sep 19 2010, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have. In fact I've packed down in the scrum at both games, granted in the contested scrum RL days. The argument for RL is that with contested scrums there'd be no wide running back rowers, because they'd be too knackered by the end of the game and more room for the half backs to work in. David Hobbs and the Fev pack combined to score Fev's winning try in the '83 final after a 75 minutes of contested scrums. Having said that the Hull pack were out on their feet. The problem with the contested scrum (again as can be seen in the '83 final) is that they had to be constantly set and re-set, with every other one resulting in a penalty. I don't know which I prefer. The open play in the contested scrum era seems just as fast as it is today. But the game was slower because of all the stoppages at scrums. The scrummage laws at RL haven't changed. There's nothing to stop a side putting out an old fashioned scrummaging six and trying to win by outscrummaging a lighter six. Who knows it could be the start of a whole new era for RL? Or would it force the RFL to update the rules, given what a dangerous place a contested scrum can be?



#52 timhammonds

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:00 PM

Did you see the Halifax/Sheffield game on thursday?
I think it was Halifax who had head and feed but lost the scrum.
In the recent showing of the 1978 Challenge Cup final the ball was fed into the scrum from about 6 feet away!

#53 dallymessenger

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:14 PM

QUOTE (Lobbygobbler @ Sep 20 2010, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
RL contested scrums were not pointless, and I would estimate that at least 20% went against the head on average.

RU scrums are more stable that is why they hardly ever win against the feed. However they are there to tire forwards out


they were a mess.

as i said on another thread you had penalties for

1. incorrect feed, not straight
2. props not bound correctly
3. screwing the scrum round
4. etc etc etc

im glad we got rid of them. like we got rid of the lineout, a contested scrum was the same.

#54 Kenilworth Tiger

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:17 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Sep 20 2010, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
they were a mess.

as i said on another thread you had penalties for

1. incorrect feed, not straight
2. props not bound correctly
3. screwing the scrum round
4. etc etc etc

im glad we got rid of them. like we got rid of the lineout, a contested scrum was the same.


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#55 Cofi

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 09:10 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Sep 19 2010, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1. No point, it's a relic of the method of re-starting play, that by rights shoud simply be a tap ball. It remains because people do not like change, even those who favour it won't go too far.

2. RL Forwards, Paleeasina, Crabtree, Griffin, Fielden, Morley.

RL Backs, Riley, Burrow, Eastmond, Brough, Myler.

They clearly are NOT the same.


I've thought about suggesting this but was too scared to do so! The scrum, as has been mentioned already, does get the forwards out of the way for at least one play. Is an uncontested scrum the only formation that's able to do that or can another formation be devised behind the tap ball if the rules were changed?



#56 paley

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 10:24 PM

Why should a team which knocks on or does anything else which gives the feed to the other team receive an advantage? Union with its lineouts and scrums give an advantage to a team with a dominant scrum or lineout - that is clearly a nonsense.
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#57 sgorpioncaerdyddrob

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 11:04 PM

QUOTE (paley @ Sep 20 2010, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why should a team which knocks on or does anything else which gives the feed to the other team receive an advantage? Union with its lineouts and scrums give an advantage to a team with a dominant scrum or lineout - that is clearly a nonsense.


Whenever I used to play Union I would just look away at the pretty girls lining the touchline and hope I might have cuaght one's eye but playing on the right wing with a team of neigh on all right footed players meant I never got much of a chance to show my skills, especially following the inevitable break down and reset of the scrum, even the CROUCH HOLD ENGAGE set that they have brought in now as done little to improve the binding and the physical contest these fans of that element refer to. resulting in numerous resets and cheap penalties To me it was all about the flair, quick tapp, grubber and the show and go. On moving up North al beit staying in God's country I soon discovered Rugby League maintained most of these charms without the endless druggery of the ROLLING RUCK , it stopped being a 'scrum' in the purest sense years ago. But as a winger I would say that.


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#58 dkw

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 05:20 PM

QUOTE (paley @ Sep 20 2010, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why should a team which knocks on or does anything else which gives the feed to the other team receive an advantage? Union with its lineouts and scrums give an advantage to a team with a dominant scrum or lineout - that is clearly a nonsense.

Thats something ive never understood about Union, a team could dominate possession due to being dominant from Lineouts and Scrums. They could make mistake after mistake in open play yet still be pretty safe in the knowledge they had a good chance of getting it back. Granted it wont happen at the higher levels but im sure at lower levels some clubs scrums and lineouts could be much better than their oppo`s.

#59 Wolford6

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 06:23 PM

QUOTE (dkw @ Sep 21 2010, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thats something ive never understood about Union, a team could dominate possession due to being dominant from Lineouts and Scrums. They could make mistake after mistake in open play yet still be pretty safe in the knowledge they had a good chance of getting it back. Granted it wont happen at the higher levels but im sure at lower levels some clubs scrums and lineouts could be much better than their oppo`s.



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#60 Gosman

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 10:46 PM

QUOTE (paley @ Sep 20 2010, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why should a team which knocks on or does anything else which gives the feed to the other team receive an advantage? Union with its lineouts and scrums give an advantage to a team with a dominant scrum or lineout - that is clearly a nonsense.



This is getting dangerously close to being a cross code forum discussion, if it hasn't already gone over that line that is.

What teams do you know of that have deliberately knocked on to get a scrum?

What does the line out have to do with anything in regard to a team making mistakes?

I could equally alter that last sentence to read "Union with its rucks and mauls give an advantage to a team with a good maulers and players who can get to the rucks first ." and it would be just as stating the bleeding obvious.

Edited by Gosman, 21 September 2010 - 10:47 PM.





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