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The New Proposed Structure


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#41 Methven Hornet

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:50 PM

QUOTE (Roy Haggerty @ Oct 14 2010, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you're misunderstanding my point. I was merely pointing out that if you take all the current clubs in the RLCP and RLC and form 3 cross-South divisions out of them, then the only teams left would be pub-standard newbies, second teams and occasional ######-up teams. All the current teams would have to be utilised just to fill up 3 divisions.

As I'm now involved again in the management of one of the RLCP and RLC sides, I'm not likely to diss the whole competition ! wink.gif

In your own personal opinion, could your club adapt to a full-length season and the travelling involved in the proposed structure? (I'm assuming your club is in the south or midlands.)

What sort of help/assistance would you be looking for?
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#42 HappyDave

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (Roy Haggerty @ Oct 14 2010, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you're misunderstanding my point. I was merely pointing out that if you take all the current clubs in the RLCP and RLC and form 3 cross-South divisions out of them, then the only teams left would be pub-standard newbies, second teams and occasional ######-up teams. All the current teams would have to be utilised just to fill up 3 divisions.

As I'm now involved again in the management of one of the RLCP and RLC sides, I'm not likely to diss the whole competition ! wink.gif


Ah! Okay, no worries. Which teams do you manage?

I was just thinking the 4-6 hours travel we did every second this season wasn't great as it meant an awful lot of our players weren't able to travel with us due to other commitments (as well as teams calling off travelling to us). Which makes me wonder if there was an RLC South in say 5 years time how Bristol would cope with all the travel & all the South East teams would cope with travelling to them?

Edited by HappyDave, 14 October 2010 - 09:40 PM.

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#43 audois

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 10:03 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Oct 14 2010, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The latest rumour is that if the NCL vote against a switch then the RFL will set up a 12 team National North for the teams that do switch...


With the NYL already to start in Spring next year you'd think any NCL club in that league would be more likely to favour the summer switch and National North? Stanningley, Rose Bridge,Thatto Heath, Lock Lane, Leigh Miners, Leigh East, Milford, Saddleworth and Dudley Hill. Then you've got those northern based sides already in RLCN. Would they be to the right level? Is there a rumour that the RFL are looking at one town representation.


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#44 bowes

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (audois @ Oct 15 2010, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With the NYL already to start in Spring next year you'd think any NCL club in that league would be more likely to favour the summer switch and National North? Stanningley, Rose Bridge,Thatto Heath, Lock Lane, Leigh Miners, Leigh East, Milford, Saddleworth and Dudley Hill. Then you've got those northern based sides already in RLCN. Would they be to the right level? Is there a rumour that the RFL are looking at one town representation.

Leigh East and Dudley Hill definitely sound up for it, but I think you're thinking along the right lines.

Bramley, Warrington Wizards and Kippax I'm sure will be applying to National North, but Kippax and Bramley are both in Leeds so depends if Leeds (and Hull) get exemption from 1 club rule due to having so many big clubs.

IMO Underbank are too reliant on winter players, as perhaps are Fev Lions (who have a team in the top division of the Yorkshire League) and Dewsbury Celtic have just reentered a winter team, but I'd imagine if they miss out on National North then the Yorkshire Premier would get a boost. Having said that Dewsbury Celtic and Featherstone Lions have NYL teams

Another thing to take into account is East Leeds, Milford Marlins and Shaw Cross Sharks ran summer teams this year, though again there's the Leeds squeeze for the first 2

Edited by bowes, 15 October 2010 - 12:00 PM.


#45 Roy Haggerty

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 04:59 PM

QUOTE (Methven Hornet @ Oct 14 2010, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In your own personal opinion, could your club adapt to a full-length season and the travelling involved in the proposed structure? (I'm assuming your club is in the south or midlands.)

What sort of help/assistance would you be looking for?


Ultimately, that's for the players to decide, not me. But financially, we'd be incapable of taking part in a competition involving that much travelling. Next year will be a bit of a rebuilding season for us, and lengthy awaydays don't seem particularly attractive as options.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever want to join a competition with such a geographical range, because I can't envisage having the time to spend dawn till dusk on the road. BUt some players may want that in future years, in which case, they might make it happen. In terms of assistance, though, I thik the bare minimum would be coverage of transport costs.

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#46 HappyDave

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 05:41 PM

I think teams in the South could only do full seasons if they have a well establushed youth setup (or 'feeder' youth teams nearby). And only then if established club have 2 squads they need to have at least 30 players (15 or so each team?) dedicated players, without any weekend comitments, willing to travel long journeys & can play a full season which by the sounds of it is only a few London clubs (plus St Albans?) & Bristol (?) could do at present.
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#47 Methven Hornet

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:39 PM

QUOTE (Roy Haggerty @ Oct 15 2010, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ultimately, that's for the players to decide, not me. But financially, we'd be incapable of taking part in a competition involving that much travelling. Next year will be a bit of a rebuilding season for us, and lengthy awaydays don't seem particularly attractive as options.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever want to join a competition with such a geographical range, because I can't envisage having the time to spend dawn till dusk on the road. BUt some players may want that in future years, in which case, they might make it happen. In terms of assistance, though, I thik the bare minimum would be coverage of transport costs.

The club's South London Storm. I'm going back in time...

That's an interesting response as many of us, probably correctly, tend to view South London as one of the stronger southern clubs (stronger as in club structure rather than just the quality of the first team). What about the longer/full-length season?

The travelling has to be a concern. It is only the strongest of clubs in the north that are asked to undertake journeys of such length, and I would have thought travel across the south and midlands would be a lot more challenging.
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#48 bowes

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (Methven Hornet @ Oct 15 2010, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's an interesting response as many of us, probably correctly, tend to view South London as one of the stronger southern clubs (stronger as in club structure rather than just the quality of the first team). What about the longer/full-length season?

The travelling has to be a concern. It is only the strongest of clubs in the north that are asked to undertake journeys of such length, and I would have thought travel across the south and midlands would be a lot more challenging.

Bear in mind South London have a lot more travel time than a north London club would have

#49 bowes

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:57 PM

QUOTE (HappyDave @ Oct 15 2010, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And only then if established club have 2 squads they need to have at least 30 players (15 or so each team?) dedicated players,

Probably need more like 25 for each side when you factor injuries in (and the odd week off) and that would be if they're committed, though a bit of duplication would reduce it a little for 2 teams probably

#50 HappyDave

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 10:21 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Oct 15 2010, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Probably need more like 25 for each side when you factor injuries in (and the odd week off) and that would be if they're committed, though a bit of duplication would reduce it a little for 2 teams probably


I think I better back away now... biggrin.gif
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#51 Methven Hornet

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:28 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Oct 15 2010, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bear in mind South London have a lot more travel time than a north London club would have

But one of the game's better clubs can't just be abandoned. Any structure for the south and midlands has to cater for both excellence, geographical position and the level of the game we're talking about, ie amateur players and volunteer officials.
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#52 thestatman

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 08:09 AM

QUOTE (audois @ Oct 15 2010, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With the NYL already to start in Spring next year you'd think any NCL club in that league would be more likely to favour the summer switch and National North? Stanningley, Rose Bridge,Thatto Heath, Lock Lane, Leigh Miners, Leigh East, Milford, Saddleworth and Dudley Hill. Then you've got those northern based sides already in RLCN. Would they be to the right level? Is there a rumour that the RFL are looking at one town representation.


This is not the official view of the club meerly my own personal opinion, but at Thatto Heath i'm pretty confident in saying we'd be keen to play in the highest level af amateur rugby league possible, be that in summer or winter. I would imagine that would be the same for almost all of the NCL clubs.
i.e. It would need virtually all clubs to switch en masse to make it feasible, I don't think anyone would be keen on playing in a diluted 'Premier' be it in Summer or Winter.
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#53 bowes

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 08:45 AM

QUOTE (Methven Hornet @ Oct 16 2010, 05:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But one of the game's better clubs can't just be abandoned. Any structure for the south and midlands has to cater for both excellence, geographical position and the level of the game we're talking about, ie amateur players and volunteer officials.

Nor can the entire midlands be abandoned for the sake of 1 team (not club, their juniors won't be affected) going through a rough patch on the field.

Difficult one though but the RFL appear to be going ahead with it as long as at least 7 teams join, and sometimes the long term good of the game has to be looked at, South London's good junior setup probably won't be harmed by what league their first team is in in the short term but long term when they get lots of players coming through from them they'll want to be in the best league practical I'd have thought. Though of course hard to say for certain from up here and the travel is hard.

Every sport that splits north, midlands and south ends up with the midlands as insignificant because of the lower population base than the north and south.

Edited by bowes, 16 October 2010 - 11:47 AM.


#54 Methven Hornet

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 01:41 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Oct 16 2010, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nor can the entire midlands be abandoned for the sake of 1 team (not club, their juniors won't be affected) going through a rough patch on the field.

Difficult one though but the RFL appear to be going ahead with it as long as at least 7 teams join, and sometimes the long term good of the game has to be looked at, South London's good junior setup probably won't be harmed by what league their first team is in in the short term but long term when they get lots of players coming through from them they'll want to be in the best league practical I'd have thought. Though of course hard to say for certain from up here and the travel is hard.

Every sport that splits north, midlands and south ends up with the midlands as insignificant because of the lower population base than the north and south.

There are quite a few dilemmas facing the RFL and the affected clubs, but travel is surely one of the most significant for those clubs in the London/South East conurbation, and not just because of the cost. RL is in a market place along with other sports and, in effect, they are all competing with one another for the athletic talent available. If a young bloke (and we are talking men in this instance) can compete to a very good standard in soccer, union, athletics, etc and yet stay within the broad south east region then the rugby league option, where you not only have to escape/travel through London but then continue up to the midlands, might start to seem less attractive.

It is a problem that the FA struggled with for years when continuing to build their pyramid. The north bit was easy but they could never get a unified southern half of the country, that bit being split between the Southern League (midlands, south-west - basically everywhere north and west of the M25 circle) and the Isthmian League (London and the south-east corner). The London clubs and players were perfectly happy with their lot and just wouldn't countenance travelling out of their geographical zone; they could get just as good a standard of footy so why spend the time and money travelling half the length of England to get just the same. And these are clubs that, in terms of infrastructure, finance and support dwarf even the best of RL's southern and midlands clubs.

see this map for details of how soccer deals with the reality without abandoning the midlands. Now your previous suggestion of splitting the fixtures - playing the clubs in your geographical half twice, the others once, would go some way to offering a similar solution.

The problem with all this is that the 'pyramid' is being constructed probably before the game south of the established counties is really ready for it. Having double or treble the number of clubs at all levels of strength would help, but you perhaps have to grasp the opportunity when it presents itself - increased funding is there at the moment and the national pyramid is being used as a selling point of the switch to summer. And, you never know, having the structure there might cause a few clubs to re-examine their ambitions (their have been many clubs in both soccer and union, for example, that have been inspired to climb up their respective pyramids.

I just hope the RFL have done a risk assessment!
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#55 bowes

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 02:14 PM

I think the RFL are forced into action quicker because they needed somewhere for Hemel and Nottingham to play and Premier divisions with endless dropouts and walkovers don't cut it (in the midlands we're going to be really struggling for one full stop). It wouldn't be worth Hemel running a NYL team just for them to grow up to have Portsmouth not bother travelling to them.

But it is hard and unless we can get a minimum of 10 and preferably 12 teams to sign up for 3 long distance games then it will end up a lot easier for say Leicester and St Albans to step up than say Birmingham and South London

Edited by bowes, 16 October 2010 - 02:16 PM.


#56 Methven Hornet

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 08:06 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Oct 16 2010, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the RFL are forced into action quicker because they needed somewhere for Hemel and Nottingham to play and Premier divisions with endless dropouts and walkovers don't cut it (in the midlands we're going to be really struggling for one full stop). It wouldn't be worth Hemel running a NYL team just for them to grow up to have Portsmouth not bother travelling to them.

But it is hard and unless we can get a minimum of 10 and preferably 12 teams to sign up for 3 long distance games then it will end up a lot easier for say Leicester and St Albans to step up than say Birmingham and South London

What did surprise me in the structure was having three region-wide divisions (the region being south of the heartlands) of between 7 and 14 clubs unless, as you've said, that is a long term aim. Unless the RFL believe that they can attract new clubs; they did mention a while ago that they wanted to attract championship-level clubs (I assume championship one level) in each Sport England region. Perhaps they have come up with a more realistic and sustainable plan after receiving expressions of interest from interested parties. Staffing the teams initially might be a problem, but if all the newbies were in the same division...

We'll see!
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#57 bowes

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 10:14 PM

QUOTE (Methven Hornet @ Oct 16 2010, 09:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What did surprise me in the structure was having three region-wide divisions (the region being south of the heartlands) of between 7 and 14 clubs unless, as you've said, that is a long term aim. Unless the RFL believe that they can attract new clubs; they did mention a while ago that they wanted to attract championship-level clubs (I assume championship one level) in each Sport England region. Perhaps they have come up with a more realistic and sustainable plan after receiving expressions of interest from interested parties. Staffing the teams initially might be a problem, but if all the newbies were in the same division...

We'll see!

Yeah I do wonder if they'll target teams from each region, though still wouldn't fill 3 divisions if only from the player point of view. Suspect if Bristol were umming and ahhing about whether to step up they'd be encouraged as a south west team, but find it much harder to see where the south east region would get a team from in the immediate future. Also will they let Welsh teams in the south divisions? Seems a good idea to try get a couple of Welsh teams in but they may want to run Wales separate

#58 del capo

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 07:07 PM

QUOTE (thestatman @ Oct 16 2010, 09:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is not the official view of the club meerly my own personal opinion, but at Thatto Heath i'm pretty confident in saying we'd be keen to play in the highest level af amateur rugby league possible, be that in summer or winter. I would imagine that would be the same for almost all of the NCL clubs.
i.e. It would need virtually all clubs to switch en masse to make it feasible, I don't think anyone would be keen on playing in a diluted 'Premier' be it in Summer or Winter.

Agreed Statman. Are not the RFL simply asking the Heartlands to consider moving to summer?And if that happens the non -heartlands will simply fall into place at their appropriate levels , within a universal structure?

David Gent says ' no war chest ' which has to be correct if you are testing the water , but after that it ain't going to happen without subsequent significant sweeteners... I can't see ten or so NCL clubs converting without the rest.. You kick one,they all limp- it's that sort of League......

#59 Methven Hornet

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 07:32 PM

QUOTE (del capo @ Oct 17 2010, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed Statman. Are not the RFL simply asking the Heartlands to consider moving to summer?And if that happens the non -heartlands will simply fall into place at their appropriate levels , within a universal structure?

David Gent says ' no war chest ' which has to be correct if you are testing the water , but after that it ain't going to happen without subsequent significant sweeteners... I can't see ten or so NCL clubs converting without the rest.. You kick one,they all limp- it's that sort of League......

I do find it hard to imagine just a few NCL clubs transferring to the summer, and they would seem to be giving up such a lot if they did; I still think the NCL is one of the most successful things to have happened in British RL (well, in the north anyway) and it would be such a risk to leave that behind - unless there were some sort of subsidy or investment package.

And if there are only 10 or 12 clubs of that standard in summer what happens if a club is struggling to maintain the standards required? Dropping down a level would mean a real drop in standard.
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#60 bowes

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Methven Hornet @ Oct 17 2010, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do find it hard to imagine just a few NCL clubs transferring to the summer, and they would seem to be giving up such a lot if they did; I still think the NCL is one of the most successful things to have happened in British RL (well, in the north anyway) and it would be such a risk to leave that behind - unless there were some sort of subsidy or investment package.

And if there are only 10 or 12 clubs of that standard in summer what happens if a club is struggling to maintain the standards required? Dropping down a level would mean a real drop in standard.

That's a point.

Personally I think if the NCL votes against a switch but 10-19 teams still want to switch then I'd agree with giving them the chance to switch (there's not much point doing it with too few teams, though I guess 7+3RLCN would be the absolute bare minimum and probably too much of a risk for dropouts)




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