99 replies to this topic

[Bedford Roughyed]

Soon to be announced, but current strong rumours are -

New Nimrod scraped before its even used.
Ark Royal scraped
Harriers scraped
Defence training centre binned (good, it was a stupid PFI)
Super carriers to be built as its cheaper to build them than bin the project.
Army pulled out of Germany

[ckn]

Don't forget, the new carriers won't have RN aircraft capable of landing on them until 2020 making them nearly as useless as the £1bn each air-defence destroyers that are currently in service without air-defence weapons.

If the government wants to cut the defence budget by that much then they need to publicly announce that we're no longer a big player on the world stage and that we can no longer participate in major military engagements beyond territory defence. We've been punching well above our weight for the last decade and are criminally stretching our military way beyond their capacities.

[Trojan]

I'm not qualified to comment on defence so I won't. However, I noticed this morning on Today that Dr Pox (sorry Fox) prefixed his remarks with now the familiar mantra of all the new ministers "Because of the mess the last goverment left etc etc..."
The government insists that the country needs to maintain its triple A credit rating etc. But at the weekend the Will Hutton in the Observer said that government debt had never been easier to sell. Something not gellng here somewhere.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Don't forget, the new carriers won't have RN aircraft capable of landing on them until 2020 making them nearly as useless as the £1bn each air-defence destroyers that are currently in service without air-defence weapons.

If the government wants to cut the defence budget by that much then they need to publicly announce that we're no longer a big player on the world stage and that we can no longer participate in major military engagements beyond territory defence. We've been punching well above our weight for the last decade and are criminally stretching our military way beyond their capacities.

I think a lot of it is trying to actually get our spending within the budget.

I think there was about £3 billion of things per year pre-spent/promised/signed that didn't even fit in the current budget.

JSF option B (Harrier replacement) is over budget, behind already and less capable than other options. The whole thing is a mess really and getting the square into a round hole is a nightmare.

[bowes]

Army pulled out of Germany

To be fair I think our 65 year military occupation there is a little unnecessary now as there aren't many Nazis left and there isn't even the threat of the Communist East Germany attacking

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Don't forget, the new carriers won't have RN aircraft capable of landing on them until 2020 making them nearly as useless as the £1bn each air-defence destroyers that are currently in service without air-defence weapons.

If the government wants to cut the defence budget by that much then they need to publicly announce that we're no longer a big player on the world stage and that we can no longer participate in major military engagements beyond territory defence. We've been punching well above our weight for the last decade and are criminally stretching our military way beyond their capacities.

the destroyers not having their air weapons in place is just aboiut excusable since they have other secondary roles
the aircraft carriers are being built because it would be too expensive to cancel them. What this means is that the royal navy will have no carriers for the next ten years, since invincible and illustrious are life expired. There is a discussion to be had about whether we need carriers or not, and whether the queen elizabeth class were/the answer anyway. What a mess.
at least the dogs breakfast of a Nimrod upgrade has been cancelled, what a pointless and edpensive exercise that was. They should have bought a couple of dozen second hand refurbished orions.

[Bedford Roughyed]

at least the dogs breakfast of a Nimrod upgrade has been cancelled, what a pointless and edpensive exercise that was. They should have bought a couple of dozen second hand refurbished orions.

The think is the problems have been overcome and they are now built or nearly built, which makes cancelling now seem pointless. Dogs breakfast is right. Nimrod was good on paper but every stage should be a lesson on what goes wrong.

[JohnM]

it will be interesting to hear if this afternoons official statement bears any relationship to the controlled leaks and speculation.

Defence procurement is a right expensive mess. Projects expensive, projects late, by the time some stuff is delivered its obsolete, changing requirements drive expensive contract variations, defence suppliers find it difficult to plan ahead, procuremnt decision made for political reasons, limited use of commercial off the shelf (COSH) equipment, hugely expensive main Building in Whitehall ( move it lock stock and barrel to Milton Keynes and sell the building for apartments!

[gingerjon]

hugely expensive main Building in Whitehall

Haven't they already sold that to a bunch of tax avoiders?

[Bedford Roughyed]

hugely expensive main Building in Whitehall ( move it lock stock and barrel to Milton Keynes and sell the building for apartments!

We don't own whitehall anymore...it was PFI'd!

[Trojan]

it will be interesting to hear if this afternoons official statement bears any relationship to the controlled leaks and speculation.

Defence procurement is a right expensive mess. Projects expensive, projects late, by the time some stuff is delivered its obsolete, changing requirements drive expensive contract variations, defence suppliers find it difficult to plan ahead, procuremnt decision made for political reasons, limited use of commercial off the shelf (COSH) equipment, hugely expensive main Building in Whitehall ( move it lock stock and barrel to Milton Keynes and sell the building for apartments!

I may be out of date here, but I recall in the early eighties selling 1800 pieces of a particular tank component to the MOD. There was room in that sale for the manufacturers of the part to make a profit, my company to make a profit, a middleman to make a profit, and the final supplier to make a profit..IIRC the original price to us was £3.20 and we sold them at £6.00 each. God alone knows what the MOD ended up paying - obviously my company were not on the MOD's approved list of suppliers. The same used to apply to the NCB (no c*** bothered)

[ckn]

the destroyers not having their air weapons in place is just aboiut excusable since they have other secondary roles

Not really... they have one cannon mounted at the front capable of shore bombardment and very limited naval conflict. You could have a basic gunboat that could do far more, far more capably for 1/200th of the price.

[sam]

Defence procurement is a right expensive mess.

and it will continue to be so.

[JohnM]

I may be out of date here, but I recall in the early eighties selling 1800 pieces of a particular tank component to the MOD. There was room in that sale for the manufacturers of the part to make a profit, my company to make a profit, a middleman to make a profit, and the final supplier to make a profit..IIRC the original price to us was £3.20 and we sold them at £6.00 each. God alone knows what the MOD ended up paying - obviously my company were not on the MOD's approved list of suppliers. The same used to apply to the NCB (no c*** bothered)

all that was supposed to have been put right by Peter Levene in the late 1980s


also this: Through the Defence Estates the MoD owns approximately 1% of the UK landmass, making MoD the UK’s largest landowner. Defence Estates spends in the region of £12 billion annually maintaining and developing this resource and it is responsible for the placing of all construction-related contracts for the MoD.

If Main Building has been sold and leased back, whose idea was that? They still need to quit and move to MK.

[Steve May]

Don't forget, the new carriers won't have RN aircraft capable of landing on them until 2020 making them nearly as useless as the £1bn each air-defence destroyers that are currently in service without air-defence weapons.

Oh I don't know, the aircraft that the Navy won't have will prove more than adequate for fighting the Russian's inflatable MiGs.

[bowes]

Glad we're keeping nuclear weapons as if anyone things they can exploit the gaps caused by the cuts and invade us at least we can nuclear strike them or preferably have that as a deterrent.

[Bedford Roughyed]

SNP MP got a right strop on after asking about the airbases at Kinloss and Lossiemouth (and their impacts on the local economy), Dave replied that they will look at moving the army into them, and wondered what the locals would do if Scotland was an independant nation without the RAF input.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Not really... they have one cannon mounted at the front capable of shore bombardment and very limited naval conflict. You could have a basic gunboat that could do far more, far more capably for 1/200th of the price.

and a helicopter and a sophisticated sensor suite and anti submarine weapons.
I agree that these ships are probably far more complex and therefore more expensive than is probably necessary
as are the astute class submarines.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Glad we're keeping nuclear weapons as if anyone things they can exploit the gaps caused by the cuts and invade us at least we can nuclear strike them or preferably have that as a deterrent.

who are the candidates for invading the uk?

[JohnM]

Too late!

The Scots are everywhere !!!!