37 replies to this topic

[ali]

Thought England defended quite well this morning but generally lacked cohesion in attack. I'd keep Robinson at half and Tomkins at Fullback for the next game, as the team gelled better in the second half. I'd consider moving Briscoe to centre for Atkins (if he can handle left centre) and bring Hall in if fit. I'd drop Griffin for Crabtree, as Earl worried the Aussie's last year.

1. Widdop - 6 - Dropped a bomb but generally looked decent enough. Can play anywhere in the back line so I'd use of him off the bench next week with Tomkins at full back
2. Goulding - 6 - Looked the part, worked hard and didn't do a lot wrong
3. Shenton - 6 - Struggled in defence but had a good second half in attack. Should hold his place
4. Atkins - 4 - Struggled early before going off injured. I like Atkins generally but didn't look up to it today. If Hall is fit maybe Atkins makes way with Briscoe going to the centres.
5. Briscoe - 7 - Looks the making of a fine international player. Strong on his feet and didn't make any errors of note
6. Brown - 5 - Had some nice touches but wasn't great. Looked better when Robinson came on
7. Tomkins - 6 - Not great by his lofty standards but still looked England's greatest threat with the ball. Can be England's Benji Marshall or Lockyer in the long term!

8. Fielden - 6 - Worked hard early but looked to run out of steam.
9. Roby - 7 - Two poor errors but redeamed himself later with some good work in attack and a nice try.
10. Graham - 7 - Typically whole hearted display, lead by example
11. Ellis - 6 - Didn't have much impact but worked hard in defence
12. Burgess - 6 - Didn't appear quite at his best IMO. Needs to step up next week.
13. O'Loughlin - 7 - Nice break which almost lead to a try. Solid in defence

14. Robindson - 7 Showed some spark when introduced. I'd have him starting at 7 next week
15. Griffin - 4 - Didn't have much impact and made a bad missed tackle on Kenny Dowell. I'd drop him for Crabtree.
16. Westwood - 6 - Looked to spark the England team at times but also missed Kenny Dowell badly for NZ's 3rd try.
17. Tomkins - 5 - Appeared to have limited game time but should hold his spot.

[Mumby Magic]

Here's mine:

1. Widdop - 6 -One of our better players, everyone is shouting loud about him but only saw glimpses.
2. Goulding - 5 - Quiet but didn't do much wrong
3. Shenton - 7 - Good second half. A year with Saints and he could be awesome
4. Atkins - 5 Fiound out today
5. Briscoe - 5 -See Goulding
6. Brown - 5 - Mmmmm
7. Tomkins - 6 - Needs to find that gear. I fear it will be against PNG when it will be too late.

8. Fielden - 6 - Solid after international exile
9. Roby - 6 - The basic errors let him down and gave NZ more ball time. Better second half but he should be off of the bench.
10. Graham - 6 - NOT a Captain. Very average.
11. Ellis - 5 - Did he play?
12. Burgess - 5 - Believing his own hype. Bench and prop next week to up his workrate.
13. O'Loughlin - 7 - Was never a fan but was one of our better players.

14. Robinson - 6 - I'm still deliberating whether he should start next week. What other options have we?
15. Griffin - 2 - Pants. Not International class. How can Crabtree be behind him?
16. Westwood - 6 - Should start next week, maybe for Burgess moving to the bench/prop
17. Tomkins - 5 - Not enough time.

Our options? I haven't got the 24 man squad to hand but Carvell and Crabtree should 100% be involved next week. Maybe Westwood to the Centres? What are our other options at scrum half. Burrow should have gone.

[Saint Toppy]

Widdop - 6 - Made some mistakes but overall not too bad
Goulding - 5 - Too quiet, need to get more involved
Shenton - 6 - Looked shakey in the 1st half but showed good pace in making breaks in the 2nd
Atkins - 2 - Non-existant in attack and woeful in defence
Briscoe - 6 - did nothing wrong but didn't pose much of a threat
Brown - 4 - provided no direction for the team & kicking was poor
Tomkins - 6 - Failed to organise & kick but looked dangerous when moved to FB
Graham - 7 - Worked his socks off, defensively very good but didn't punch holes in the defensive line
Roby - 6 - Made a few errors but came to life a bit in the 2nd half. Took his try well
Fielden - 5 - Looked off the pace, made erors & gave away the penalty that led to their 1st try. But tried hard.
Ellis - 7 - Not his usual brilliant self but still looked good in a poor team
Burgess - 7 - same as Ellis
O'Loughlin - 6 - Worked hard but offered nothing going forward & gave away silly penalty

Robinson - 7 - Looked lively but still didn't organise the team or have the impact the team needed
Griffin - 4 - No mistakes but nothing special
Westwood - 7 - Tried hard but missed a few tackles including the one for a try
Tomkins - 5 - Looked out of his depth

[Old Frightful]

How many passes did Briscoe and Goulding receive from their centres?

Somewhere between none and three in total I reckon.

The only time I saw them with the ball was helping the forwards out in their own 20m or when the Kiwis had kicked on the last.

[AndyCapp]

I would drop Burgess for his lack of involvement and mistakes.
S Tomkins for his poor defense, Marshall took the pi** with him.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

I would drop Burgess for his lack of involvement and mistakes.
S Tomkins for his poor defense, Marshall took the pi** with him.

No you wouldn't - you're just saying that to be provocative and wind people up. You know that they're two of England's best players.

[Kickin Back]

1. Widdop - 6 - Mistake that led to a try, but a good performance overall
2. Goulding - 6 - Didn't do much wrong, didn't do much though, which is down to the game plan for me though.
3. Shenton - 5 - Exposed at times defensively and looked a long way off the pace, but had a good patch in the second half.
4. Atkins - 2 - Poor, nowhere near international class. Defensively exposed time after time
5. Briscoe - 6 - see Goulding
6. Brown - 4 - didn't offer too much imho.
7. Tomkins S - 6 - too close to the action at 7, not an organising halfback and needs a different partner, or as happened, moved to FB, looked so much better there
8. Graham - 7 - Decent game and led well
9. Roby - 6 - inconsistent, some great things, some poor things
10. Fielden - 5 - Quiet but steady
11. Ellis - 8 - Showed his class today
12. Burgess - 6 - quiet
13. O'Loughlin - 7 - good performance

Griffin - 4 - didn't offer much
Tomkins J - 6 - no frills
Robinson - 7 - lively spark
Westwood - 6 - quiet

McNamara - 1 - must do better! Our game plan was awful, too much one up rugby with no support, how many times there was a half break with no-one there was frustrating. Why on earth we decided to play up the middle against a side as big and physical as the Kiwi's I don't know, we've pace, mobility and skill, we should have used it, we were never going to be in a wrestle. I'm sure there was a point in the 2nd half where the Kiwi forwards were really enjoying smashing us, the one up drives were that obvious!

[The Boy Saint]

Widdop looked more and more like Richie Mathers every time he got involved. Completely over-rated from a player who hasnt earned his shirt.

At least Atkins has been found out early doors

[Ullman]

How many passes did Briscoe and Goulding receive from their centres?

Somewhere between none and three in total I reckon.

The only time I saw them with the ball was helping the forwards out in their own 20m or when the Kiwis had kicked on the last.

I think it was probably towards the lower end of your scale, mate. Sadly that was the most predictable aspect of England's performance, no width to their game whatsoever.

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 Widdop - 6 mixed bag but not our biggest problem
2 Goulding - 6 he has come a long way and didn't let the side down. We need more than that and Hall is a better bet.
3 Shenton - 6 rubbish defence and couldn't beat a man but can run when given room.
4 Atkins - 2 did not work. Sadly Gleeson and Bridge are sitting at home rather than wearing 3 and 4 next week.
Maybe Briscoe could play centre instead?
5 Briscoe - 7 this boy can play and will be world class for a long time. Needs cloning.
6 Brown - 4 an off day, as sometimes happens with mavericks.
7 Sam - 7 still electric with ball in hand and beautiful chip for Brown's harshly disallowed try. Much better at 1 as ever.
8 Graham - 7 our pack did some terrific things in defence and were hard working and honest. Graham played his part.
9 Roby - 6 as ever, his distribution and decision making lag behind his broken field running and eye for a gap.
10 Fielden - 6 solid enough.
11 Ellis - 6 ok, expected more.
12 Burgess - 6 ok, expected more.
13 Lockers - 7 does what he does every week, takles superbly, makes a break and good with ball in hand.

Subs - all 5/6 did decent but did nothing game breaking.

[Hannibal]

Widdop - 6 - Made some mistakes but overall not too bad
Goulding - 5 - Too quiet, need to get more involved
Shenton - 6 - Looked shakey in the 1st half but showed good pace in making breaks in the 2nd
Atkins - 2 - Non-existant in attack and woeful in defence
Briscoe - 6 - did nothing wrong but didn't pose much of a threat
Brown - 4 - provided no direction for the team & kicking was poor
Tomkins - 6 - Failed to organise & kick but looked dangerous when moved to FB
Graham - 7 - Worked his socks off, defensively very good but didn't punch holes in the defensive line
Roby - 6 - Made a few errors but came to life a bit in the 2nd half. Took his try well
Fielden - 5 - Looked off the pace, made erors & gave away the penalty that led to their 1st try. But tried hard.
Ellis - 7 - Not his usual brilliant self but still looked good in a poor team
Burgess - 7 - same as Ellis
O'Loughlin - 6 - Worked hard but offered nothing going forward & gave away silly penalty

Robinson - 7 - Looked lively but still didn't organise the team or have the impact the team needed
Griffin - 4 - No mistakes but nothing special
Westwood - 7 - Tried hard but missed a few tackles including the one for a try
Tomkins - 5 - Looked out of his depth

Laughable.

If you ever get over your Wigan bias, you might have something decent to say.



Graham was no better than any of the other forwards on the field. Looked intimidated all the way through, just like all the others.

[The Boy Saint]

Gareth Widdop is an NRL reserve player, yet he looked like a Bramley Bulldogs reserve player at best.
Average in attack (i've seen faster match mascots) and highly dubious defense.
The most impressive thing about him today was his rugby boots, which looked like Barbie had thrown up...He needs to be replaced for the the Australia game, or they will be licking their lips at the prospect of rounding him throughout the game.
Thought O'Knock-on (o'Loughlin) was, if nothing, consistent...3 penalties conceded, nowt else done.

[MrFussy]

1. Widdop - 5 - Did well in support to score the second try but was average throughout and didn't look like he really merited a place.
2. Goulding - 6 - Hard to rate as he was rarely involved though he wasn't really to blame for that.
3. Shenton - 7 - Had a game of two halves. When he had space in the second half he showed what he could do. Our most dangerous strike player today and made the second try.
4. Atkins - 3 - The less said the better.
5. Briscoe - 6 - Had the same problem as Goulding.
6. Brown - 5 - I rate him as a good league player but he wasn't really up to the task today. Not sure what I'd do about his place in the squad.
7. Tomkins - 6.5 - Was wasted at No. 7 for most on the match. Was much better when moved to fullback and needs to be playing there so he can inject his awesome attack like he does for Wigan.
8. Fielden - 5 - Looked fired up after the haka but sadly this proved to be a false dawn.
9. Roby - 6.5 - Awful start but when he found his rhythm he caused NZ problems and took his try well.
10. Graham - 7 - Solid as ever if unspectacular. Didn't let anyone down but we need our forwards to be offloading to create gaps like we saw for our second try.
11. Ellis - 7 - Hoped to see more from him but he generally did well.
12. Burgess - 6 - Other than a couple of runs he didn't look like the behemoth he's been made out to be this time round.
13. O'Loughlin - 7 - Another who was solid, definitely worth his place in the team.

14. Robinson - 6 - Gave it his all and should start at scrum half next week to free up Tomkins.
15. Griffin - 4 - Not much to say, there's a whole host of props who should probably be there in front of him.
16. Westwood - 6 - Good enthusiasm as ever but was let down by his poor attempt on Kenny-Dowell.
17. Tomkins - 5.5 - Didn't impress but should probably be given more of a chance.

[Keith T]

Widdop -5 - Nothing out of the ordinary in defence or attack
Goulding - 6 - Thought he did alright on his debut and was not overawed
Shenton - 7 - Best I have seen of him for England
Atkins - 4 - Needs to be told to tackle people round the legs then he might make a tackle
Briscoe - 6 - Usual competent game from him without anything spectacular
Brown - 5 - Never takes the line on and offers little to the team
Tomkins S - 6 - Always looking for attacking chances but too stifled at 7
Graham - 6 - Did plenty of work but needs to make more yards next week
Roby - 4 (first half)/ 6 (second half) - Proof yet again that he should not be the starting hooker
Fielden - 6 - Same as Graham. Needs to make more yards
Ellis - 5 - Disappointed and needs to up his performance next week
Burgess - 6 - Same comment as Ellis. Where's this good NRL form?
O'Loughlin - 5 - Another that needs to up his game next week, if he is capable!!!

Robinson - 6 - Alright in short spells but not a test class half-back
Westwood - 6 - Always putting the effort in and deserves his place in the 17
Griffen - 5 - Not of required standard. Any prop in SL or the Championship could match him.
Tomkins J - 5 - Like a boy amongst men. Pushed back to easy and ineffective in attack.

[hindle xiii]

Widdop -5 - Nothing out of the ordinary in defence or attack
Goulding - 6 - Thought he did alright on his debut and was not overawed
Shenton - 7 - Best I have seen of him for England
Atkins - 4 - Needs to be told to tackle people round the legs then he might make a tackle
Briscoe - 6 - Usual competent game from him without anything spectacular
Brown - 5 - Never takes the line on and offers little to the team
Tomkins S - 6 - Always looking for attacking chances but too stifled at 7
Graham - 6 - Did plenty of work but needs to make more yards next week
Roby - 4 (first half)/ 6 (second half) - Proof yet again that he should not be the starting hooker
Fielden - 6 - Same as Graham. Needs to make more yards
Ellis - 5 - Disappointed and needs to up his performance next week
Burgess - 6 - Same comment as Ellis. Where's this good NRL form?
O'Loughlin - 5 - Another that needs to up his game next week, if he is capable!!!

Robinson - 6 - Alright in short spells but not a test class half-back
Westwood - 6 - Always putting the effort in and deserves his place in the 17
Griffen - 5 - Not of required standard. Any prop in SL or the Championship could match him.
Tomkins J - 5 - Like a boy amongst men. Pushed back to easy and ineffective in attack.

That's probably the most accurate summary so far.

[Old Frightful]

Further to my earlier comments about the wingers' lack of football, I wonder if we ought to change things in the centres. Shenton showed enough promise in the 2nd half to be retained but I was desperately disappointed in Atkins.

I was also disappointed in Joel Tomkins, a player I have a huge amount of admiration for. He's been fantastic in Wigan's starting 13 all season so I wonder if his game was affected with him coming off the bench.

I know this is going back to the bad old days of selection of people out of position but I might be tempted with Ellis in the centre with J. tomkins in the starting 2nd row.

Also, I don't see Kevin Brown as the answer to the half back position. Thought he was ordinary at best this morning. I'd start with Robinson and S. Tomkins in the halves. Why have a half back on the bench?, they should be capable of playing the full 80 minutes.

And finally, to Griffin. Sorry, but as a forward sub he was a waste of space. Crabtree in for him.

[Dave T]

1 - Widdop - 6, didn't do much wrong, and actually made a couple of last ditch tackles, think people are being a touch harsh on him.

2 - Goulding - 5, solid debut, although as has been pointed out, we should use wingers more than in our own 20m.

3 - Shenton - 6, showed what he can do in that 2nd half, defense was ropy in the 1st which surprised me.

4 - Atkins - 4, gave his opposite number too much space, and was poor for their 2nd try. Again, people going slightly OTT as he was given no ball and came off injured.

5 - Briscoe - 5, as with Goulding.

6 - Brown - 4, all he did was little drop off passes. Not good enough.

7 - Tomkins - 6, looked ok at times, but didn't always have good field position to do anything.

8 - Graham - 6, Some good tackles, but didn't lead the team around the park well.

9 - Roby - 7, thought he was one of our better players actually.

10 - Fielden - 6, solid, no more, no less

11 - Ellis - 6, made some good yards with each carry

12 - Burgess - 4, bench (if in at all) next week. People perhaps expect too much, but he was quiet and probably the worst forward on the park.

13 - O'loughlin - 5, solid as always, but he didn't have any of the nice link play that he does at Wigan.

14 - Griffin - 6, as solid as Fielden and Graham, but no spark.

15 - Westwood - 7, livened things up, but shocking attempt for their third try. In at 12 next week.

16 - Robinson - 7, very lively, in for Brown next week.

17 - Tomkins - 6, solid enough, decent enough debut.

The fact is that the team was around a 6 out of 10. We played a bloody good team at their home, and it wasn't too bad, but plenty of room for improvement.

Anybody who says that Peacock and Morley are passed it and wont be missed needs to watch todays game and rethink. They would have made a huge difference. Our go forward was average, and I wonder whether we need to bring the likes of Crabtree and Carvell on the bench next week to step our go forward up.

[faz'_nose]

I know this is going back to the bad old days of selection of people out of position but I might be tempted with Ellis in the centre with J. tomkins in the starting 2nd row.

I also think that we should consider playing a one or two out of position next week. Nobody's saying that it's ideal but it's not as if we have massive competiton for places in all positions. I'm not suggesting anything silly like playing props on the wing or second rowers at full back but (as he's a better player) surely, the former centre, Ellis could play a better role in the three quarters than Atkins. What we might lose in the back row wouldn't be as significant as what we could gain in the back line.

It's a similar situation with O'Loughlin possibly playing at 6(it's not like he never plays there). Of course, it's not ideal but it would allow Tomkins to play at fullback and we still have cover at 13. Plus, he could do at least as good a job there as Brown and (along with Ellis) we'd have quite a bit more size in the backs.

Like I said, it's not like I'm saying that we play Crabtree on the wing.

Using the players in the current squad, my 17 would be:

Tomkins S.

Goulding
Shenton
Ellis
Briscoe

O'Loughlin
Robinson

Graham
Lunt
Fielden
Tomkins
Burgess
Westwood

Interchange

Roby
Harrison
Carvell
Crabtree

[Derwent]

Official Match Stats :-

Gareth Widdop - Metres made = 95, Tackles made = 4, Tackles missed = 4
Darrell Goulding - Metres made = 72, Tackles made = 8, Tackles missed = 0
Michael Shenton - Metres made = 108, Tackles made = 22, Tackles missed = 3
Ryan Atkins - Metres made = 19, Tackles made = 12, Tackles missed = 2
Tom Briscoe - Metres made = 49, Tackles made = 3, Tackles missed = 0
Kevin Brown - Metres made = 18, Tackles made = 22, Tackles missed = 1
Sam Tomkins - Metres made = 64, Tackles made = 5, Tackles missed = 3
James Graham - Metres made = 113, Tackles made = 30, Tackles missed = 3
James Roby - Metres made = 52, Tackles made = 30, Tackles missed = 0
Stuart Fielden - Metres made = 85, Tackles made = 25, Tackles missed = 2
Gareth Ellis - Metres made = 89, Tackles made = 18, Tackles missed = 1
Sam Burgess - Metres made = 81, Tackles made = 32, Tackles missed = 2
Sean O'Loughlin - Metres made = 70, Tackles made = 40, Tackles missed = 1
Luke Robinson - Metres made = 77, Tackles made = 17, Tackles missed = 0
Joel Tomkins - Metres made = 26, Tackles made = 12, Tackles missed = 0
Ben Westwood - Metres made = 55, Tackles made = 17, Tackles missed = 1
Darrell Griffin - Metres made =33, Tackles made = 13, Tackles missed 3

[Dave T]

Official Match Stats :-

Gareth Widdop - Metres made = 95, Tackles made = 4, Tackles missed = 4
Darrell Goulding - Metres made = 72, Tackles made = 8, Tackles missed = 0
Michael Shenton - Metres made = 108, Tackles made = 22, Tackles missed = 3
Ryan Atkins - Metres made = 19, Tackles made = 12, Tackles missed = 2
Tom Briscoe - Metres made = 49, Tackles made = 3, Tackles missed = 0
Kevin Brown - Metres made = 18, Tackles made = 22, Tackles missed = 1
Sam Tomkins - Metres made = 64, Tackles made = 5, Tackles missed = 3
James Graham - Metres made = 113, Tackles made = 30, Tackles missed = 3
James Roby - Metres made = 52, Tackles made = 30, Tackles missed = 0
Stuart Fielden - Metres made = 85, Tackles made = 25, Tackles missed = 2
Gareth Ellis - Metres made = 89, Tackles made = 18, Tackles missed = 1
Sam Burgess - Metres made = 81, Tackles made = 32, Tackles missed = 2
Sean O'Loughlin - Metres made = 70, Tackles made = 40, Tackles missed = 1
Luke Robinson - Metres made = 77, Tackles made = 17, Tackles missed = 0
Joel Tomkins - Metres made = 26, Tackles made = 12, Tackles missed = 0
Ben Westwood - Metres made = 55, Tackles made = 17, Tackles missed = 1
Darrell Griffin - Metres made =33, Tackles made = 13, Tackles missed 3

Where did you get these from? Is number of carries available? The two interchange props metres made is too low, hence my suggestion to bring Carvell and Crabtree in next week.