14 replies to this topic

[Saint Toppy]

For me the problem goes beyond just the players, not one single England (or GB) coach I can remember has got things right at test level. Every one has tried to adopt the same methods & techniques they use at club level and integrate them into the test team in the few short weeks they have with them. It takes months for a new coach at club level to get the team playing the way he wants them to so when it comes to the test team containing players from 10 different clubs who are all used to playing in 10 different ways its pointless a test coach trying to impose a strict regime & style of play in a couple of weeks.

Both the Aussies & Kiwis have a basic game plan but their players appear to be given a lot more of a free reign and to play their natural style of rugby. In essence the players themselves learn to play with the other players they have along side them where as the English always seem totally lost and trying desperately to play to the coaches imposed style.

Take last weekends game as an example, all year O'Loughlin has been playing as a pivot and ball playing LF for Wigan and has done so pretty successfully, for England he was asked to play a completely different role as just a tackling machine and someone to drive the ball in & make yards. All year Roby has interchanged between playing a traditional hooker role and as a running back rower taking the ball at 1st receiver and running at the gap behind the ruck, again something he's done pretty successfully for Saints but for England it appears he was asked to do little else other than pass the ball out from dummy half and make the occasional run from there. For 2/3 of the season Tomkins has been playing full back and allowed to inject himself into the line and play his natural off the cuff style, very rarely was he called on to direct the team around the field with passing & kicking. Macnamara seems to think it would be a good idea to use Tomkins as his main organiser & kicker.

So you have to ask yourself why Macnamara is asking players he's only had access to for 2 weeks to change the way they've been playing all year. Surely he would be better to use the players in the roles they're used to and adapt his own game plan to fit in with their skills & styles ?

So for me, poor coaching is the main reason for England's continued failure at test level !

Edited by Saint Toppy, 26 October 2010 - 10:05 AM.

[Ant]

Totally fair point, Aussie and Kiwi coaches let players play their natural game.

English coaches make players fit into a certain pidgeon hole, same at club and country level.

(I will remain adamant that this is the problem with Kev Brown, he is capable of much better things but is being made to fit to the coaches "idea" of what he wants him to do, rather than letting him play his own game)

[bird]

Accept this argument and we may as well not bother with a coach. Play more matches if you want an established game plan. Anyway a coach can certainly influence morale and that seems a lot better than last time round

[R0009]

In my opinion I really think that the England team has gone backwards. The coach is very negative and everything we did at the weekend was very easy to read for the opposition defence even the simple drop offs we where sending our lads into the strongest part of the kiwi team (The middle). I know that we don’t have the quality in the half backs as the kiwis and the aussies but we are a lot better than we are playing at the moment and to say the confidence is better I don’t agree with because we didn’t even have a go at the weekend and the team has looked more confident in the past.! Anyway let’s hope that we have more of a go against the aussies this weekend and I don’t like to be negative but I don’t think we have a chance to be honest. Let’s just hope it’s and even contest and we have a go!!!!

[Keith T]

After 30 years or so of having it drummed in to our players that we are not good enough to beat the Aussies and that they could put our 2 or 3 teams to beat our best, etc, etc, don't you think it's more a case of our players lacking in belief and confidence to go out there and perfrom as we have seen most of them do at club level.

All the so called experts and tipsters never give us a chance and we make it worse by bringing over second rate Aussies to finish their days taking our money for their pension pots. What does that say to the young up and coming players? We will never be any better irrespective of who is the coach if we don't get this pysche sorted out.

[Hannibal]

For me the problem goes beyond just the players, not one single England (or GB) coach I can remember has got things right at test level. Every one has tried to adopt the same methods & techniques they use at club level and integrate them into the test team in the few short weeks they have with them. It takes months for a new coach at club level to get the team playing the way he wants them to so when it comes to the test team containing players from 10 different clubs who are all used to playing in 10 different ways its pointless a test coach trying to impose a strict regime & style of play in a couple of weeks.

Both the Aussies & Kiwis have a basic game plan but their players appear to be given a lot more of a free reign and to play their natural style of rugby. In essence the players themselves learn to play with the other players they have along side them where as the English always seem totally lost and trying desperately to play to the coaches imposed style.

Take last weekends game as an example, all year O'Loughlin has been playing as a pivot and ball playing LF for Wigan and has done so pretty successfully, for England he was asked to play a completely different role as just a tackling machine and someone to drive the ball in & make yards. All year Roby has interchanged between playing a traditional hooker role and as a running back rower taking the ball at 1st receiver and running at the gap behind the ruck, again something he's done pretty successfully for Saints but for England it appears he was asked to do little else other than pass the ball out from dummy half and make the occasional run from there. For 2/3 of the season Tomkins has been playing full back and allowed to inject himself into the line and play his natural off the cuff style, very rarely was he called on to direct the team around the field with passing & kicking. Macnamara seems to think it would be a good idea to use Tomkins as his main organiser & kicker.

So you have to ask yourself why Macnamara is asking players he's only had access to for 2 weeks to change the way they've been playing all year. Surely he would be better to use the players in the roles they're used to and adapt his own game plan to fit in with their skills & styles ?

So for me, poor coaching is the main reason for England's continued failure at test level !

Agree with all of that.

When you consider that the "Method" these players are being made to learn, is the same method that led Bradford to a record breaking losing run, it makes even more sense.

We have only one chance left to do anything in this tournament, and he should let them go out and play.

[MrFussy]

For me the problem goes beyond just the players, not one single England (or GB) coach I can remember has got things right at test level. Every one has tried to adopt the same methods & techniques they use at club level and integrate them into the test team in the few short weeks they have with them. It takes months for a new coach at club level to get the team playing the way he wants them to so when it comes to the test team containing players from 10 different clubs who are all used to playing in 10 different ways its pointless a test coach trying to impose a strict regime & style of play in a couple of weeks.

Both the Aussies & Kiwis have a basic game plan but their players appear to be given a lot more of a free reign and to play their natural style of rugby. In essence the players themselves learn to play with the other players they have along side them where as the English always seem totally lost and trying desperately to play to the coaches imposed style.

Take last weekends game as an example, all year O'Loughlin has been playing as a pivot and ball playing LF for Wigan and has done so pretty successfully, for England he was asked to play a completely different role as just a tackling machine and someone to drive the ball in & make yards. All year Roby has interchanged between playing a traditional hooker role and as a running back rower taking the ball at 1st receiver and running at the gap behind the ruck, again something he's done pretty successfully for Saints but for England it appears he was asked to do little else other than pass the ball out from dummy half and make the occasional run from there. For 2/3 of the season Tomkins has been playing full back and allowed to inject himself into the line and play his natural off the cuff style, very rarely was he called on to direct the team around the field with passing & kicking. Macnamara seems to think it would be a good idea to use Tomkins as his main organiser & kicker.

So you have to ask yourself why Macnamara is asking players he's only had access to for 2 weeks to change the way they've been playing all year. Surely he would be better to use the players in the roles they're used to and adapt his own game plan to fit in with their skills & styles ?

So for me, poor coaching is the main reason for England's continued failure at test level !

I agree with all of that as well and have no confidence whatsoever in Macnamara. After playing his part in transforming Bradford from a major force into a laughing stock (hopefully only temporarily as I do miss the hard games against Bradford) he's rewarded with the England job. I know he's not to blame for everything but I suppose this emphasises how unattractive a job the role of England coach must be if they couldn't do better than to appoint him

[The Future is League]

Don't blame this coach or any other coach that has been in charge of GB/England for the 30 years or so. its certain clubs who have no serious interest in junior development always looking for the short term solution, 2nd rate imports.

[guess who]

Any coach taking on the England job, is taking on the poison chalice.

Who in there right mind would want to do it.

Taking all that into account you can see why he got it. He was about to be sacked so needed the work.

[my missus]

it all boils down to us not playing enough games, 3 or 4 matches a season is just not enough we should be playing regular games and knitting together a top well prepared side, not having one warm up and then expecting to be able to match aus or nz.

[del capo]

Which clubs ? This season and next has top imports coming to the top sides, and excellent youngsters abound in those outfits. Maybe it's the clubs making the numbers up in Super League that is the problem. And I wouldn't let any imports in at all at Championship level , we have plenty enough talent there to make the grade , just as that Fev winger has shown.....

Don't blame this coach or any other coach that has been in charge of GB/England for the 30 years or so. its certain clubs who have no serious interest in junior development always looking for the short term solution, 2nd rate imports.

[The Future is League]

Which clubs ? This season and next has top imports coming to the top sides, and excellent youngsters abound in those outfits. Maybe it's the clubs making the numbers up in Super League that is the problem. And I wouldn't let any imports in at all at Championship level , we have plenty enough talent there to make the grade , just as that Fev winger has shown.....

Huddersfiled Hull KR, Salford, Wakefield, for so called heartlands their junior development achievements are poor.

[Lee]

Huddersfiled Hull KR, Salford, Wakefield, for so called heartlands their junior development achievements are poor.

I hadnt noticed, i thought ours was doing rather well now

[Simon Templar]

He doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence for mine. Any coach whose subs during a game result in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.in the manner of the Bulls v Pies play off game a couple of years back,shouldn't be anywhere near the international squad.
Then again nobody seemed to want the job IIRC.

[Father Ted]

McNamara hardly won a game with Bradford in the 2nd half of the season and didn't make the eight. An International coach? Never!
His asst, Jimmy Lowes, was in charge of Wire last year when they hardly won a game under his leadership.
So why are the two men in charge? Coaches who can hardly win a game at club level even being considered for these two posts?
Don't know who I'd have as head coach but being a Wigan fan I do feel Shaun Wane has more credibility than Lowes. At least when he was left to run the team when Maguire sadly had to return home he came up with two wins away from home at HullFC and Leeds.
The other matter is the players did come up with 33 missed tackles and 62% completion rate, so who is to blame for that the coaches or the players?