38 replies to this topic

[marshy1]

A cool look at the hard facts, rather than going off rumour, innuendo and promises, shows that Swinton Lions are miles behind.

Salford City Reds has secured a site that is big enough to house cross-subsidising development and a super league compatible ground side-by-side, the site Swinton Lions has secured is too small for either.

Salford City Reds has secured the top level of detailed planning permission and built partnerships to facilitate construction, which is now progressing at a pace. Swinton Lions has not yet even applied for outline planning permission.

Salford City Reds has secured a funding package for construction of its new ground and backing for community work from Salford City Council worth about £22m. Swinton Lions has apparently raised £13k.



There are also some who are in denial about the state of the club off-the-field. So much so that suggestions for improvements are shot down with replies that seek to marginalise and misrepresent them as personal insults. If everything is so rosey, please explain what you think the underlying reasons are for the club becoming unviable at Park Lane and only 4 people turned up to the touch rugby sessions?

I'm all for hope gents, but we must keep it real. The underlying problems need to be addressed. We are reaching a stage where sweeping fundamental problems under the carpet and living on promises won't keep the club alive.

I just wonder Phil, would the boot have been on the other foot had the roles been reversed and Swinton would have been dealing with the Swinton and Pendlebury borough council.It is in the city of Salfords own interests to promote a team bearing their name and no matter what representation the Lions do that will always be the case.Yes we willget pacified but no way was the council going to ever stump up the same cash for us and even you can't believe that they would.
You will also recall that Red Developments Ltd went into Administration reportedly owing in excess of £ 500000.00 and not a tap of work had been done at Barton, it has taken a joint venture by Peel Holdings and by The council to set the wheels in motion and yet still not a brick has been laid and there are even rumblings from opposition councilors for the stadium to be scrapped in view of the current economic climate.Yet I don't see you suggesting problems with the Salford club(I won't care if there was) indeed this is the same club who also obtained an operating capital loan from the council at the turn of the year, which to the best of my knowledge the management of Swinton Lions haven't had to do.Should we therefore not at least give some credit to the board for actually continue to put a team bearing Swintons name on the pitch?

[PhillH]

I just wonder Phil, would the boot have been on the other foot had the roles been reversed and Swinton would have been dealing with the Swinton and Pendlebury borough council.It is in the city of Salfords own interests to promote a team bearing their name and no matter what representation the Lions do that will always be the case.Yes we willget pacified but no way was the council going to ever stump up the same cash for us and even you can't believe that they would.
You will also recall that Red Developments Ltd went into Administration reportedly owing in excess of £ 500000.00 and not a tap of work had been done at Barton, it has taken a joint venture by Peel Holdings and by The council to set the wheels in motion and yet still not a brick has been laid and there are even rumblings from opposition councilors for the stadium to be scrapped in view of the current economic climate.Yet I don't see you suggesting problems with the Salford club(I won't care if there was) indeed this is the same club who also obtained an operating capital loan from the council at the turn of the year, which to the best of my knowledge the management of Swinton Lions haven't had to do.Should we therefore not at least give some credit to the board for actually continue to put a team bearing Swintons name on the pitch?

We can all wonder Alan! In no way do I underestimate the scale and nature of the challenges involved in trying to secure a viable future for a professional rugby league club called Swinton Lions - if you look elsewhere it is easy to find a lot of delusion on the topic.

The excuses are easy to find. The starting point in my view ought to be for the club to do everything it can to change things for the better, and where necessary challenge barriers to progress in a proper manner. The best way to bring public servants to task is to use open communications and ultimately the democratic process. Has Swinton Lions actually done that?

If the club wants a viable future for itself under the Swinton banner there is simply no choice other than to improve the relationship with Salford City Council. Fact is, if the club wants to reconnect with the community of M27, local government of the area is provided by Salford City Council and dictated by safe seat politics and it will stay that way for the foreseeable. Why are we in the present day position? A big contributor is the club hardly covering itself in glory over the years in terms of fostering a productive relationship with the local authority, going back even to the days when Station Road was up and running.

The club has gone through long periods of time when it was quite happy to follow another agenda entirely, either due to arrogance in thinking it was bigger than the council and didn't need the council's help, or other vested interests. The latter includes the clandestine sale of Station Road whilst keeping the council out of the picture, and Malcolm White then dancing to Hughie Eaves's tune for more or less a decade and seeking a future based in Bury, whilst at times even falsely blaming the council for the club's continued exile. It should not surprise anyone that episodes like that go down like a lead balloon in the Town Hall.

If the Kidds truly want the club to continue to be called Swinton and be viable for much longer they have simply got to get on with a very serious campaign of bridge-building. The default position is that supporter numbers will continue to dwindle, unless there is a serious change in approach. Evidence shows the results of what has been happening thus far.

Its difficult yes, but having the honour of representing Swinton and all the history and tradition that comes with it is either a big enough bang for the buck or not, to be frank. The Kidds had their moment of toying with the idea of targetting East Lancashire instead but decided against. Having turned tail on that idea (at least in the short term) they have not, as yet, started to build those bridges. My concern being that unless that situation improves in a timely way, by default we will get to a point where there is no viable alternative but to completely rebrand and give up any meaningful link to Swinton.

[Bungle]

I just wonder Phil, would the boot have been on the other foot had the roles been reversed and Swinton would have been dealing with the Swinton and Pendlebury borough council.It is in the city of Salfords own interests to promote a team bearing their name and no matter what representation the Lions do that will always be the case.Yes we willget pacified but no way was the council going to ever stump up the same cash for us and even you can't believe that they would.
You will also recall that Red Developments Ltd went into Administration reportedly owing in excess of £ 500000.00 and not a tap of work had been done at Barton, it has taken a joint venture by Peel Holdings and by The council to set the wheels in motion and yet still not a brick has been laid and there are even rumblings from opposition councilors for the stadium to be scrapped in view of the current economic climate.Yet I don't see you suggesting problems with the Salford club(I won't care if there was) indeed this is the same club who also obtained an operating capital loan from the council at the turn of the year, which to the best of my knowledge the management of Swinton Lions haven't had to do.Should we therefore not at least give some credit to the board for actually continue to put a team bearing Swintons name on Salford's pitch?

Edited for accuracy......
Whatever you say marshy1 (and most of the above is innacurate) the directors of Salford will be delivering a new super league standard stadium for the reds in 2012. How far have your director's got?

[Bryce]

Edited for accuracy......
Whatever you say marshy1 (and most of the above is innacurate) the directors of Salford will be delivering a new super league standard stadium for the reds in 2012. How far have your director's got?

To be fair, if you're being that pedantic then you would surely have to say "Salford taxpayers pitch", which, as much as I hate to say it, is also including Swinton taxpayers money. However, it's not really a question of yours and ours. I don't even know why the Pinks stadium has been brought into it. They are in a completely different situation and to be honest, I don't really care.

All that was said at the meeting was that we should be hopeful of good news at the meeting in December. This is when we will find out our fate and, until then, there's not really much to say surrounding the future of the club in terms of becoming an ameateur outfit ETC.

What we can do is get behind the team for this season. JK said that attendances needed to improve for us to show our worth to the community of Swinton and the surrounding areas. Get down and support the team, bring your friends, family, even Pinks fans if you have to!!!

The future's bright, the future's blue and white!!!

[marshy1]

Edited for accuracy......
Whatever you say marshy1 (and most of the above is innacurate) the directors of Salford will be delivering a new super league standard stadium for the reds in 2012. How far have your director's got?

With the greatest respect, I am very sure that the folowing events happened:
1) Red Developments went bust........Is that correct?

2) The Salford Advertiser ran the story on the operating capital loan ...............Is that correct?

3) There has yet to be a brick laid..............visable from the flyover.

4) The funds are being made available by Salford Council and Peel Holdings again the source of this ,the salford advertiser...........Is this correct?

I think you will find they are all pretty accurate and there is no mention of any input from the Salford club,fact!!

[Bungle]

With the greatest respect, I am very sure that the folowing events happened:
1) Red Developments went bust........Is that correct?

2) The Salford Advertiser ran the story on the operating capital loan ...............Is that correct?

3) There has yet to be a brick laid..............visable from the flyover.

4) The funds are being made available by Salford Council and Peel Holdings again the source of this ,the salford advertiser...........Is this correct?

I think you will find they are all pretty accurate and there is no mention of any input from the Salford club,fact!!

Marshy1, I don't want to get into an argument about this.
All the points above on the surface are correct, but you fail to elaborate.
Red Developments ceased trading after one of the directors went bust.
The only money owed was to him and other directors.
A capital loan was granted, it has now been repaid.
No bricks have been laid on the site, but groundwork amounting to £5million has been done.
Salford council are loaning the joint venture half of the money to get the development built, the rest is being provided by Peel.
Not exactly sure why you feel the need to denigrate the achievements of the BOD of Salford City Reds?
Especially as you are the most vehement defender of your own.
Which would you rather have, ours or yours?
BTW the Salford tax payer does not own the Willows, it is owned, guess what, by a member of the board!
When I was about 11 or 12 (1985 ish) I used to watch both clubs when they were at home (I am from Walkden) and eventually sided with Salford because I preferred the Willows to Station Rd.
I will probably end up watching Swinton more than Salford next season as Friday nights are a problem for me.

Edited by Bungle, 02 November 2010 - 03:42 PM.

[mark richardson]

Rename thread- THE WAY BACKWARDS.

[marshy1]

Marshy1, I don't want to get into an argument about this.
All the points above on the surface are correct, but you fail to elaborate.
Red Developments ceased trading after one of the directors went bust.
The only money owed was to him and other directors.
A capital loan was granted, it has now been repaid.
No bricks have been laid on the site, but groundwork amounting to £5million has been done.
Salford council are loaning the joint venture half of the money to get the development built, the rest is being provided by Peel.
Not exactly sure why you feel the need to denigrate the achievements of the BOD of Salford City Reds?
Especially as you are the most vehement defender of your own.
Which would you rather have, ours or yours?
BTW the Salford tax payer does not own the Willows, it is owned, guess what, by a member of the board!
When I was about 11 or 12 (1985 ish) I used to watch both clubs when they were at home (I am from Walkden) and eventually sided with Salford because I preferred the Willows to Station Rd.
I will probably end up watching Swinton more than Salford next season as Friday nights are a problem for me.

I think your contribution stems from a thread i was having with Phil H, in which I believe had Swinton Lions been dealing with the Swinton Council that was, then we would have been looked upon more favourably than Salford.Fact is if the council wants to get involved then it should traet both clubs fairly and it is correct to say that without it's input Salford would be remaining at the Willows as the directors of Red Development had failed in their bid to produce a stadium.

[Bungle]

I think your contribution stems from a thread i was having with Phil H, in which I believe had Swinton Lions been dealing with the Swinton Council that was, then we would have been looked upon more favourably than Salford.Fact is if the council wants to get involved then it should traet both clubs fairly and it is correct to say that without it's input Salford would be remaining at the Willows as the directors of Red Development had failed in their bid to produce a stadium.

But what does the council get in return from Swinton?
How do the club get involved with the local community?
They have not even played in the city (apart from 1 season at moor lane) for how many years?
My son goes to a primary school in Walkden and get a weekly rugby lesson from a Salford coach.
We are 3 miles from Swinton, the next town on the A6.
Your club's offices are there I believe?
The stadium would have been built eventually without the help of the council. The problem was the time frame for the next round of superleague licenses.

[GLENNGARY]

I just can't get my head around some of the comments that keep popping up on this forum. We have just had some positive news on the future of the club. We have the makings of a very promising team and still the boot keeps going in. What a shower of so called fans we have. Firstly Kingspeedbump you call yourself a supporter in what way?. Did you contribute to the £13,000 towards us getting back to m27 and if not why not. United fc asked there fans to help raise funds for there new ground and raised over £500,000 in the first week that is because there fans care about there club. Ask some of our fans for fianancial help and they disapear up there own arses in a puff of blue smoke.We need all the fans to get behind the club now whats gone on in the past is history ,what we need is for us all to stop the bickering and get behind the club in there effort to give a future to the lions.Just one last thing Kingspeedbump before i move on, The crowds at Sedgley didn't cover the rent so who's pocket do you think paid for the running of the club and the players wages? Of course it was the man who you like kicking, must be costing him a small fortune to make sure we have a team to watch. Now to Philh do you really believe that Salford would be getting a new ground if they hadn,t had a fairy godmother in Peel holdings? no way. Unfortunatley we don't stretch to a fairy godmother so we have to struggle along on our on so the people that are putting in the effort to get us back to the area need all the help they can get, so just for once lets see some support from you for thre efforts. For a start lets see you at the Willows shouting on the Lions no excuses about ill health or youve got to babysit the goldfish,and before you have a dig about ill health i have CLL which stands for cronic lynfostitic leaukemia [ cancer of the blood and blood marrow] but thats NOT GOING TO STOP ME WATCHING MY BELOVED LIONS so get off your backsides and boost the attendance figures and maybe you will enjoy it again

[kingspeedbump]

I just can't get my head around some of the comments that keep popping up on this forum. We have just had some positive news on the future of the club. We have the makings of a very promising team and still the boot keeps going in. What a shower of so called fans we have. Firstly Kingspeedbump you call yourself a supporter in what way?. Did you contribute to the £13,000 towards us getting back to m27 and if not why not. United fc asked there fans to help raise funds for there new ground and raised over £500,000 in the first week that is because there fans care about there club. Ask some of our fans for fianancial help and they disapear up there own arses in a puff of blue smoke.We need all the fans to get behind the club now whats gone on in the past is history ,what we need is for us all to stop the bickering and get behind the club in there effort to give a future to the lions.Just one last thing Kingspeedbump before i move on, The crowds at Sedgley didn't cover the rent so who's pocket do you think paid for the running of the club and the players wages? Of course it was the man who you like kicking, must be costing him a small fortune to make sure we have a team to watch. Now to Philh do you really believe that Salford would be getting a new ground if they hadn,t had a fairy godmother in Peel holdings? no way. Unfortunatley we don't stretch to a fairy godmother so we have to struggle along on our on so the people that are putting in the effort to get us back to the area need all the help they can get, so just for once lets see some support from you for thre efforts. For a start lets see you at the Willows shouting on the Lions no excuses about ill health or youve got to babysit the goldfish,and before you have a dig about ill health i have CLL which stands for cronic lynfostitic leaukemia [ cancer of the blood and blood marrow] but thats NOT GOING TO STOP ME WATCHING MY BELOVED LIONS so get off your backsides and boost the attendance figures and maybe you will enjoy it again

For a start, I do not class myself as a supporter as I do not attend games. As for me contributing to the £13,000! Why the hell should I?!?! My point, which I've always maintained is that the club seem to always look to handouts from the supporters, whether it be to fund a planning application or an academy team(which lasted one season!). I can see more worthwhile causes in my own life that would warrent £250, rather than handing it over to the club without getting anything back.

As you state the gates at SP do not cover the running costs and fairly play if JK puts the money to keep it running, fair play to him. I'm sure he's got a big enough wallet to do that or he wouldn't be at the helm! That's his choice to put the money in, and its my choice not to!

There are differences with FC United, they have a good following of at least 3,000 per week, and football will always attract better investment! The case of FC United and Swinton are worlds apart!!!!

Yes there is something postive from the meeting last week, and that is the appointment of SMc and the signing of Smith. I will take everything else at face value when it happens, because there has been very little substance of any reasonable progress with anything off the field.

As for getting my backside and boosting the attendance, I have been tempted to show my face this season due to the appointment of SMc because I do believe that on the field things will turn around. As for everything else, I cannot see any improvement as Swinton are a glorified amateur club. A simple example of this is the shirt sponsor being the Supporter's Trust! Simply not good enough! Was there any attempt to secure a reasonable level of investment from an organisation outside of the immediate club ?!

[juliancaine]

the simple facts are swinton lions/kidds have not got the funds to build a new stadium without third party help we have to face facts, without cross subsidising from the likes of tesco/peel holdings we will never get a new ground, the only way forward is to meet with the likes of tesco/asda/peel holdings/salford council to see if there is any way a new superstore can be built in m27 with enough room for a ground for us ala saints and warrington, otherwise apart from a ground share at barton which i believe swinton lions/kidds would struggle to afford that, then i fear the future is bleak.

[PhillH]

I just can't get my head around some of the comments that keep popping up on this forum. We have just had some positive news on the future of the club. We have the makings of a very promising team and still the boot keeps going in. What a shower of so called fans we have. Firstly Kingspeedbump you call yourself a supporter in what way?. Did you contribute to the £13,000 towards us getting back to m27 and if not why not. United fc asked there fans to help raise funds for there new ground and raised over £500,000 in the first week that is because there fans care about there club. Ask some of our fans for fianancial help and they disapear up there own arses in a puff of blue smoke.We need all the fans to get behind the club now whats gone on in the past is history ,what we need is for us all to stop the bickering and get behind the club in there effort to give a future to the lions.Just one last thing Kingspeedbump before i move on, The crowds at Sedgley didn't cover the rent so who's pocket do you think paid for the running of the club and the players wages? Of course it was the man who you like kicking, must be costing him a small fortune to make sure we have a team to watch. Now to Philh do you really believe that Salford would be getting a new ground if they hadn,t had a fairy godmother in Peel holdings? no way. Unfortunatley we don't stretch to a fairy godmother so we have to struggle along on our on so the people that are putting in the effort to get us back to the area need all the help they can get, so just for once lets see some support from you for thre efforts. For a start lets see you at the Willows shouting on the Lions no excuses about ill health or youve got to babysit the goldfish,and before you have a dig about ill health i have CLL which stands for cronic lynfostitic leaukemia [ cancer of the blood and blood marrow] but thats NOT GOING TO STOP ME WATCHING MY BELOVED LIONS so get off your backsides and boost the attendance figures and maybe you will enjoy it again

Peel Holdings a fairy godmother? Utterly ridiculous and a very badly directed comment. Peel is one of the most commercially hard-nosed organisations in the UK. It would not be getting involved with the Barton scheme if it was not in its best long-term commercial interests and compatible with its overall development strategy.

John Wilkinson has been something akin to a fairy godmother at the Willows but you know what - even he has not got enough free cash to build a new ground. So what he has done is adopt a strategy which is affordable and placed Salford City Reds in prime position to access other funding. Part of that agenda is to realise that you don't get money for nothing - you have to offer some value in return. Be that a contribution to the agenda of the Council, grant awarding bodies or commercial partners.

The Lions did once have a major company as its sponsor - Warburtons. Why do you think Warburtons are no longer involved with the club? Why do you think Swinton Lions has not been able to attract a shirt sponsor for the last two seasons? If John Kidd truly valued the input of supporters why did he strip the Supporters Trust of its board position and write off its shares, after the Trust went through a democratic process in accordance with its constitution and determined that it wanted to remain independent of the club?

John Kidd is paying the price of the way in which he has run the club, as it is that which has driven away supporters and sponsors and limited income from other sources. I guess there is an argument that he is free to do so, as long as he keeps meeting the gap in income. Problem being that it is taking the club to an unsustainable position.

As Kingspeedbump says - the appointment of Steve McCormack and signing of Mark Smith are tangible pieces of good news. On the rest, we have heard it before and delivery has not been forthcoming so let's wait and see if its any different this time.

[marshy1]

Peel Holdings a fairy godmother? Utterly ridiculous and a very badly directed comment. Peel is one of the most commercially hard-nosed organisations in the UK. It would not be getting involved with the Barton scheme if it was not in its best long-term commercial interests and compatible with its overall development strategy.

John Wilkinson has been something akin to a fairy godmother at the Willows but you know what - even he has not got enough free cash to build a new ground. So what he has done is adopt a strategy which is affordable and placed Salford City Reds in prime position to access other funding. Part of that agenda is to realise that you don't get money for nothing - you have to offer some value in return. Be that a contribution to the agenda of the Council, grant awarding bodies or commercial partners.

The Lions did once have a major company as its sponsor - Warburtons. Why do you think Warburtons are no longer involved with the club? Why do you think Swinton Lions has not been able to attract a shirt sponsor for the last two seasons? If John Kidd truly valued the input of supporters why did he strip the Supporters Trust of its board position and write off its shares, after the Trust went through a democratic process in accordance with its constitution and determined that it wanted to remain independent of the club?

John Kidd is paying the price of the way in which he has run the club, as it is that which has driven away supporters and sponsors and limited income from other sources. I guess there is an argument that he is free to do so, as long as he keeps meeting the gap in income. Problem being that it is taking the club to an unsustainable position.

As Kingspeedbump says - the appointment of Steve McCormack and signing of Mark Smith are tangible pieces of good news. On the rest, we have heard it before and delivery has not been forthcoming so let's wait and see if its any different this time.

There we have it folks, the new Swinton board to be made up of Messrs Phil H Kingspeedbump and Julian Caine, we can't go wrong.
They will eradicate all our problems and I can see us in superleague in just a few years,with our joint venture stadium as well.
All looks nice and rosey to me......apart from the age old problem of lack of funds to buy the club in the first place.

Just what is your agenda, the current board are putting together a team and coaching set up that will,as we all do,hope allow us to be competative in the league and at the meeting gave clear assurances that it is working hard towards Agecroft.Now if that site ain't big enough then it is time you three took us to the correct site.

It probably never happens but can you imagine being a potential sponsor looking at the posts on here and reading the posts that you three have just posted, it would be enough to put them off.You can almost feel the need for the club to fail comming from your posts.

And you know what is common with all three of you....non of you actually attend any games,preferring to post at arms length.!

Phil you do have some great ideas, well get on the phone and offer the club your services and start to support.

Rant over!! as it's time to feed my fat face.

[mark richardson]

The thread about the future of the club has been hijacked with the same old stuff about the Kidds,the Council,those of us who do bother going having our heads in the sand. They are misplaced and mistimed.
Lets enjoy the good news.

Edited by mark richardson, 03 November 2010 - 02:04 PM.

[marshy1]

The thread about the future of the club has been hijacked with the same old stuff about the Kidds,the Council,those of us who do bother going having our heads in the sand. They are misplaced and mistimed.
Lets enjoy the good news.

Face now Fed,

Well said Mark.

[mark richardson]

Sausage and beans for me. Food of champions. Now to fix my leaking gutters.

[PhillH]

There we have it folks, the new Swinton board to be made up of Messrs Phil H Kingspeedbump and Julian Caine, we can't go wrong.
They will eradicate all our problems and I can see us in superleague in just a few years,with our joint venture stadium as well.
All looks nice and rosey to me......apart from the age old problem of lack of funds to buy the club in the first place.

Just what is your agenda, the current board are putting together a team and coaching set up that will,as we all do,hope allow us to be competative in the league and at the meeting gave clear assurances that it is working hard towards Agecroft.Now if that site ain't big enough then it is time you three took us to the correct site.

It probably never happens but can you imagine being a potential sponsor looking at the posts on here and reading the posts that you three have just posted, it would be enough to put them off.You can almost feel the need for the club to fail comming from your posts.

And you know what is common with all three of you....non of you actually attend any games,preferring to post at arms length.!

Phil you do have some great ideas, well get on the phone and offer the club your services and start to support.

Rant over!! as it's time to feed my fat face.

Ha Ha! Can we co-opt Barnie, Mark Stephens and any others who used to have Swinton Lions as a big part of their weekends but have since been turned off?

As regards buying the club, even if I did have enough spare lolly - John Kidd doesn't have any assets to sell. Of course the Supporters Trust did invest a significant amount in the club, but we know what happened there, don't we.

The agenda is pretty clear! Many people have serious doubts whether another round of grand promises will be delivered on; why should this time be any different to last time. Many people fear that Swinton Lions is being taken to an unsustainable position with dwindling support on the terraces, from sponsors, from other relevant organisations - because the club is being led in a manner that has killed a lot of people's interest. This is why gates have dropped. This is why you and only 3 others turned up at Moorside Fields. This is why the club cannot find a shirt sponsor. Many people believe it doesn't have to be that way, but if things continue along the same lines as the last few years the club probably won't have much of a future left at all.

People need to snap out of the good news culture and get real, as the time between now and the end of the 2011 season is make or break.

[mark richardson]

Yes but Phil the point is and was and remains so that this was a thread about THE WAY FORWARD. Youve dragged us all off to reality where we dont really want to be. Ill be dead one day and boy then I can be miserable.
Your repeated reality checks do not belong on a thread about the future, bleak as it may be, and also at a time when a real determined effort is being made for the second season running.
Some of us may have rose tinted spectacles but allow us these moments of true optimism.