35 replies to this topic

[ckn]

Just for interest:

Office for National Statistics: Neighbourhood Statistics (Hover over the pics if you do the "neighbourhood summary" search to get the rank numbers)

(version for our Scottish friends)

[Severus]

My neighbourhood is in the top half for all of the deprivation measures.

[exxile]

The place where I was brought up has the following cosmopolitan mix:
Buddhist 0
Hindu 0
Jewish 0
Muslim 0
Sikh 0

[bowes]

The place where I was brought up has the following cosmopolitan mix:
Buddhist 0
Hindu 0
Jewish 0
Muslim 0
Sikh 0

Was it in Northern Ireland? Or just very rural?

[WearyRhino]

The place where I was brought up has the following cosmopolitan mix:
Buddhist 0
Hindu 0
Jewish 0
Muslim 0
Sikh 0

Really you surprise me. How then, do you account for your liberal multicultural ethos so tolerant of difference?

[Wolford6]

My neighbourhood is in the top half for all of the deprivation measures.

It wasn't before you moved there.

[Wolford6]

The govrnment has once again camouflaged the figures by using a single "asian" ethnic group for analysis purposes.


If they further broke those figures down into Sikh / Hindu / Moslem groupings, I suspect the figures would greatly vary from those published.

It would also be interesting to evaluate the differences by the historic-protestant and historic-catholic white communities. There is certainly a conception in Bradford that you get a better education at a catholic school than at a standard comprehensive.

I am not a catholic, and have no axe to grind on the issue.

[gingerjon]

The place where I was brought up has the following cosmopolitan mix:
Buddhist 0
Hindu 0
Jewish 0
Muslim 0
Sikh 0

The Vatican?

[bowes]

The govrnment has once again camouflaged the figures by using a single "asian" ethnic group for analysis purposes.


If they further broke those figures down into Sikh / Hindu / Moslem groupings, I suspect the figures would greatly vary from those published.

It would also be interesting to evaluate the differences by the historic-protestant and historic-catholic white communities. There is certainly a conception in Bradford that you get a better education at a catholic school than at a standard comprehensive.

I am not a catholic, and have no axe to grind on the issue.

Hindus and Sikhs actually better or equal White people on almost every statistic so I'll let you fill in the rest. Is racist really to lump Hindus and Sikhs in with Muslims just because they have the same skin colour (or not in the case of Tamils) despite differing greatly in culture which is what matters. Likewise they use the percentage White to mask minority figures as it falsely leads people to consider Eastern Europeans, Middle Easterners and North Africans as British due to them coming under White. Don't really see what Jamaicans and Somalis have in common either they're neither culturally, religiously, linguistically nor even genetically related yet are both under black

[ckn]

I think that concentrating on religion, colour, etc is hugely missing the point of these statistics... What does it matter what colour you are if you're poor and live in an area where the social and education structures hold you back, there are no jobs and high rates of crime?

[bowes]

I think that concentrating on religion, colour, etc is hugely missing the point of these statistics... What does it matter what colour you are if you're poor and live in an area where the social and education structures hold you back, there are no jobs and high rates of crime?

Personally I think that explains most of the difference between White and Caribbean people as the latter disproporionately live in rough inner city areas like you describe. The statistics for poor White and poor Caribbean people are similar.

Though religion and culture do have an effect I think colour is a bit of a red herring once you take these factors into account

It's not purely being poor as poor Chinese people will out perform educationally even rich White people with the associated benefits of that later in life

Ce message a été modifié par bowes - 01 novembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[Trojan]

Hindus and Sikhs actually better or equal White people on almost every statistic so I'll let you fill in the rest. Is racist really to lump Hindus and Sikhs in with Muslims just because they have the same skin colour (or not in the case of Tamils) despite differing greatly in culture which is what matters. Likewise they use the percentage White to mask minority figures as it falsely leads people to consider Eastern Europeans, Middle Easterners and North Africans as British due to them coming under White. Don't really see what Jamaicans and Somalis have in common either they're neither culturally, religiously, linguistically nor even genetically related yet are both under black

Many Sikhs are racially the same as many Pakistanis. Many older Sikhs originate from Lahore, which was a major Sikh centre before partition. Amritsar - the major Sikh city is adjacent to Pakistan in Eastern Punjab, Sikhs from Lahore fled there at partition. There was a programme on last week with Meera Syal visiting her the village of her father in the Eastern Punjab, until partition Sihks, Hindus and Muslims had lived there for centuries quite happily as neighbours. So it's not a racial thing, more a recent religious thing.

[WearyRhino]

The govrnment has once again camouflaged the figures by using a single "asian" ethnic group for analysis purposes.


If they further broke those figures down into Sikh / Hindu / Moslem groupings, I suspect the figures would greatly vary from those published.

It would also be interesting to evaluate the differences by the historic-protestant and historic-catholic white communities. There is certainly a conception in Bradford that you get a better education at a catholic school than at a standard comprehensive.

I am not a catholic, and have no axe to grind on the issue.

I take your point but 'Asian' is an, albeit too broad, ethnic group whereas Sikh/Hindu/Muslim are nothing of the sort. Collecting data by religious grouping is even more fraught than ethnic group. You acknowledge protestant/catholic but you also need to be aware of the very different Islamic traditions which, I believe, is also the case in Sikhism and Hinduism too. You are right that the data would reveal much more if you were to disaggregate by multiple variables (eg 45 year old Female Sunni Muslims from northern Nigeria living in Central ward) but the 'cell' sizes would become so small you would be in danger of breaking confidentiality rules (i.e you could feasibly identify individuals).

Also, ONS are entirely independent of Government, so it is not fair to suggest that the 'government' are camouflaging statistics.

One of the problems with online statistics is that they do not come with health warnings as to what they can and cannot tell you leading to a lot of false correlation.

[WearyRhino]

It is worth stating that study after study continues to assert that, irrespective of race or religion, the biggest determinant of current and future social and economic status is your parents.

[ckn]

Where I live is in the top 500 least deprived of the 32,482 neighbourhoods in the statistics yet is probably the most racially and culturally integrated place I've seen. Most days I see young kids going round in mixed culture groups, plenty of mixed couples and no-one seems to care what race or religion you are.

Yes, it's far easier to integrate in a nice, peaceful place with high standards of education, health and life but all it does is prove to me the lie of blaming other ethnic groups for problems in society. It's easy to point at people "not like us" and blame them for problems in the neighbourhood/county/country but it's probably the least accurate indicator of the true causes of deprivation.

[gingerjon]

Yes, it's far easier to integrate in a nice, peaceful place with high standards of education, health and life but all it does is prove to me the lie of blaming other ethnic groups for problems in society.

That's 100% spot on in my opinion. When you've no real worries things like that are a lot easier.

EDIT
As I write this the van is being packed for the family ginger's move to a locale inside the top 210 least deprived wards in the country. We're moving from the 17,880th least deprived ward.

Ce message a été modifié par gingerjon - 01 novembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[bowes]

Where I live is in the top 500 least deprived of the 32,482 neighbourhoods in the statistics yet is probably the most racially and culturally integrated place I've seen. Most days I see young kids going round in mixed culture groups, plenty of mixed couples and no-one seems to care what race or religion you are.

Yes, it's far easier to integrate in a nice, peaceful place with high standards of education, health and life but all it does is prove to me the lie of blaming other ethnic groups for problems in society. It's easy to point at people "not like us" and blame them for problems in the neighbourhood/county/country but it's probably the least accurate indicator of the true causes of deprivation.

Yes, South Coventry is very well integrated, the north not so well

[bowes]

Many Sikhs are racially the same as many Pakistanis. Many older Sikhs originate from Lahore, which was a major Sikh centre before partition. Amritsar - the major Sikh city is adjacent to Pakistan in Eastern Punjab, Sikhs from Lahore fled there at partition. There was a programme on last week with Meera Syal visiting her the village of her father in the Eastern Punjab, until partition Sihks, Hindus and Muslims had lived there for centuries quite happily as neighbours. So it's not a racial thing, more a recent religious thing.

True, though their race isn't an effective representation of their likely position, religion is

Ce message a été modifié par bowes - 01 novembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[bowes]

I take your point but 'Asian' is an, albeit too broad, ethnic group whereas Sikh/Hindu/Muslim are nothing of the sort. Collecting data by religious grouping is even more fraught than ethnic group. You acknowledge protestant/catholic but you also need to be aware of the very different Islamic traditions which, I believe, is also the case in Sikhism and Hinduism too. You are right that the data would reveal much more if you were to disaggregate by multiple variables (eg 45 year old Female Sunni Muslims from northern Nigeria living in Central ward) but the 'cell' sizes would become so small you would be in danger of breaking confidentiality rules (i.e you could feasibly identify individuals).

Not to mention caste differences as well as religious ones (for all South Asians not just Hindus no matter what people claim)

[Shadow]

That's 100% spot on in my opinion. When you've no real worries things like that are a lot easier.

EDIT
As I write this the van is being packed for the family ginger's move to a locale inside the top 210 least deprived wards in the country. We're moving from the 17,880th least deprived ward.

You don't know what deprivation means. Come round here to the 31,316th least deprived ward and I'll show you deprivation.
The local Co-op only sells Green Olives and you can't get organic vegetables after 3pm on a Saturday.
The feeling of lost hope is reflected in the local sporting chants "who ate all the Ciabatta" and "Pinot noir, Game Pie come on chaps score a try"