61 replies to this topic

[RP London]

My current thinking is that a bad result for the Lib Dems will probably leave them clinging even closer to the Tories for dear life. I imagine that the local parties might get angry, but there are a lot of Lib Dem MPs who probably won't want to trigger an election any time soon so the local parties can go hang.

yes very possibly.. it may also send some running to the left depending on were they are so may be some defections but as i say i cant see if causing huge issues to the coalition.

It seems the only Lib Dem policies which are being enacted are the ones which also happen to be Tory ones, so you have to ask ... what are they fighting for exactly.

In any case, this is all petty red v blues stuff. In the real world, the blues just abandoned a healthcare policy that was much admired and widely refered to around the world in favour of one which will massively increase the amount of money spent on pointless medical marketing and litigation against local doctors. Good work all round.

They are fighting for their policies to be heard and to be accepted.. it has to be remembered it is not a 50-50 love in.. theyhave a very very small minority in the coalition.. to the point where some policies the tories may well not need the LibDem support to get hrough and they will try that.. that in a way is the perogative to do so as the major party.. The Lib Dems IMHO have had an influence on the policies that have come out and i think they have helped the tories to be less, well, tory but thats an opinion and we all have them and they will conflict..

not sure about the healthcare change myself it doesnt seem an intelligent move to me but listening to the radio and interviews with doctors and things there are a fair few who seem to think this may not be a bad thing. I dont know myself, not in the profession.

[Steve May]

The Lib Dems IMHO have had an influence on the policies

Which ones?

Find me some examples of Lib Dem policies that are unique to the Lib Dems that the Tories are supporting.


You are aware that senior Tories have been taken aback, and very pleased, by the ferocity with which senior Lib Dems have taken up Tory policies. It allows them to keep their hands clean while wheeling out a useful idiot like Danny Alexander to do the dirty work.

[RP London]

Which ones?

Find me some examples of Lib Dem policies that are unique to the Lib Dems that the Tories are supporting.


You are aware that senior Tories have been taken aback, and very pleased, by the ferocity with which senior Lib Dems have taken up Tory policies. It allows them to keep their hands clean while wheeling out a useful idiot like Danny Alexander to do the dirty work.

why should i find some policies that are unique to the lib dems.. i never said that there were any.. i said that IMHO they have had an influence.. that includes dilluting the tory policies as well as bringing their own in..

i am of course aware of the last paragraph.. you seem unaware of the fact there has been Lib Dem influences on policy..

i am pointing out that think there have been differences.. i am not going to spend my work time going through policies and explaining where there have been changes etc mainly becuase even if i do you wont believe/care/worry about it. so it would be pointless to be fair.. but as i say IMHO watching it all, looking at policies that affect my business and me..l there has been a good influence and differences from what the tories were talking about in their manifesto and since.. but as i say thats my honest opinion..

oh and here is the entire quote to show i'm not changing my story

The Lib Dems IMHO have had an influence on the policies that have come out and i think they have helped the tories to be less, well, tory but thats an opinion and we all have them and they will conflict..

Edited by RP London, 04 November 2010 - 12:42 PM.

[ckn]

why should i find some policies that are unique to the lib dems.. i never said that there were any.. i said that IMHO they have had an influence.. that includes dilluting the tory policies as well as bringing their own in..

i am of course aware of the last paragraph.. you seem unaware of the fact there has been Lib Dem influences on policy..

i am pointing out that think there have been differences.. i am not going to spend my work time going through policies and explaining where there have been changes etc mainly becuase even if i do you wont believe/care/worry about it. so it would be pointless to be fair.. but as i say IMHO watching it all, looking at policies that affect my business and me..l there has been a good influence and differences from what the tories were talking about in their manifesto and since.. but as i say thats my honest opinion..

Here's one for you. In April, the Lib Dems warned that student fees could go up to £7000 under the Tories, instead of that £7000, they're going to a maximum of £9000.

There's only one type of politician these days: A lying weasel who will do anything and say anything to get a vote then change direction without a single hint of shame when they get a sniff of power. That applies to all parties, not just the Lib Dems.

[RP London]

Here's one for you. In April, the Lib Dems warned that student fees could go up to £7000 under the Tories, instead of that £7000, they're going to a maximum of £9000.

There's only one type of politician these days: A lying weasel who will do anything and say anything to get a vote then change direction without a single hint of shame when they get a sniff of power. That applies to all parties, not just the Lib Dems.

i dont disagree with your last paragraph at all..

i know your example is tonghue in cheek but one example of the influence the wrong way to a worse policy is no proof that they havent had an influence in a good way on other policies..

[RP London]

Here's one for you. In April, the Lib Dems warned that student fees could go up to £7000 under the Tories, instead of that £7000, they're going to a maximum of £9000.

There's only one type of politician these days: A lying weasel who will do anything and say anything to get a vote then change direction without a single hint of shame when they get a sniff of power. That applies to all parties, not just the Lib Dems.

i'm a little suprised you daily mailed up the post though Craig...

its an upper ap of £6000 with exceptional circumstances to let it go to £9000 which in my understanding is Oxbridge and some of the more expensive courses in redbricks etc..

Not great granted but not as bad as some make out if they go with the "pay up to £9,000" top level headlines with no real explanation underneath..

hey ho.

[Steve May]

why should i find some policies that are unique to the lib dems.. i never said that there were any.. i said that IMHO they have had an influence.. that includes dilluting the tory policies as well as bringing their own in..

Because in a partnership you would expect that the Tories would have been willing to at least accept some Lib Dem policies. I totally accept your point that the Lib Dems are junior partners and so most of the policy will come from the Tory side, but surely there should be something concrete that the Lib Dems can point to after 6 months.

The two things that I can think of are the AV vote, which the Tories aren't supporting, isn't PR anyway, and comes with some appallingly undemocratic catches, and the pupil premium, which is a really good idea and a Lib Dem policy that I would happily support, but the devil is in the small print and the small print shows that the only similarity with the original policy is the name.

Meanwhile we have Lib Dems wheeled out every time there's bad news to deliver and the sight of senior Lib Dems laughing and hooting and clapping George Osbourne on the back as he announces that a million people are to be made redundant.

I look from Clegg to Cameron, and from Cameron to Clegg, and from Clegg to Cameron again; but already it's impossible to say which is which.

[ckn]

i'm a little suprised you daily mailed up the post though Craig...

its an upper ap of £6000 with exceptional circumstances to let it go to £9000 which in my understanding is Oxbridge and some of the more expensive courses in redbricks etc..

Not great granted but not as bad as some make out if they go with the "pay up to £9,000" top level headlines with no real explanation underneath..

hey ho.

I agree with that, it's just a huge point of anger with me that Lib Dem promises are being shrugged off and abandoned as "necessary" despite the party leadership promising pre-election that all their party policies had been fully costed. It's duplicitous in the extreme to simply say "the economy was worse than we thought" when it was plainly apparent how bad it was from a simple look at the Office for National Statistics figures that are pumped out monthly. If they didn't know then they don't deserve to be running a Parish Council, never mind the country.

There's even an opt-out in the coalition agreement on this issue that they're not enforcing. If they had any morals left then they'd exercise that option based on probably their only cast-iron pre-election promise.

[ckn]

Because in a partnership you would expect that the Tories would have been willing to at least accept some Lib Dem policies. I totally accept your point that the Lib Dems are junior partners and so most of the policy will come from the Tory side, but surely there should be something concrete that the Lib Dems can point to after 6 months.

The two things that I can think of are the AV vote, which the Tories aren't supporting, isn't PR anyway, and comes with some appallingly undemocratic catches, and the pupil premium, which is a really good idea and a Lib Dem policy that I would happily support, but the devil is in the small print and the small print shows that the only similarity with the original policy is the name.

Meanwhile we have Lib Dems wheeled out every time there's bad news to deliver and the sight of senior Lib Dems laughing and hooting and clapping George Osbourne on the back as he announces that a million people are to be made redundant.

I look from Clegg to Cameron, and from Cameron to Clegg, and from Clegg to Cameron again; but already it's impossible to say which is which.

I can give you another one. The tax allowance rise will take 880,000 working people out of tax entirely in the 2011/12 financial year. This was a Lib Dem policy.

[sam]

Meanwhile we have Lib Dems wheeled out every time there's bad news to deliver and the sight of senior Lib Dems laughing and hooting and clapping George Osbourne on the back as he announces that a million people are to be made redundant.

which is slightly better when there's whooping, hollering and patting darling on the back when he screws 5m of the poorest in society!

[gingerjon]

There's only one type of politician these days: A lying weasel who will do anything and say anything to get a vote then change direction without a single hint of shame when they get a sniff of power. That applies to all parties, not just the Lib Dems.

I think on all sides the number of politicos who are in power for the sake of being in power is a minority of the whole. It's very easy to oppose everything from a consistent position of principle - I think it's absolutely impossible to govern in the same way(*). Not least because you don't start from scratch with a clean slate.

There are many easier ways to earn £75k a year plus perks.

(* Whether Tory, Labour, Lib Dem or whoever)

[Steve May]

I can give you another one. The tax allowance rise will take 880,000 working people out of tax entirely in the 2011/12 financial year. This was a Lib Dem policy.

Which was a good policy for the Lib Dems. But only when combined with some other Lib Dem policies that increased taxation elsewhere. Those other policies got left behind when the coalition was formed.

Depending how you look at it that policy as enacted is either a ridiculously expensive way of reducing the tax burden on lower income people, or a pretty big tax cut for people higher up the ladder.

As it's been put in it closely resembles a Tory policy discussion that was rejected many years ago by Ken Clarke on the grounds that it was grossly expensive. Of every £1 less taken in tax, something like 4pence goes to people at the bottom.

[Steve May]

I think on all sides the number of politicos who are in power for the sake of being in power is a minority of the whole. It's very easy to oppose everything from a consistent position of principle - I think it's absolutely impossible to govern in the same way(*). Not least because you don't start from scratch with a clean slate.

There are many easier ways to earn £75k a year plus perks.

(* Whether Tory, Labour, Lib Dem or whoever)

I agree totally. And lower down the ladder you get to local councillors who devote a huge amount of time to all sorts of issues for a hell of a lot less than £75k a year.

[ckn]

Which was a good policy for the Lib Dems. But only when combined with some other Lib Dem policies that increased taxation elsewhere. Those other policies got left behind when the coalition was formed.

Depending how you look at it that policy as enacted is either a ridiculously expensive way of reducing the tax burden on lower income people, or a pretty big tax cut for people higher up the ladder.

As it's been put in it closely resembles a Tory policy discussion that was rejected many years ago by Ken Clarke on the grounds that it was grossly expensive. Of every £1 less taken in tax, something like 4pence goes to people at the bottom.

This is being balanced by a limit on the allowance meaning that those earning in the higher tax bands will have no change to their taxation. I was expecting the announcement by now on what the adjusted allowance figures would be for higher rate tax payers but all that's said is "autumn".

[RP London]

Because in a partnership you would expect that the Tories would have been willing to at least accept some Lib Dem policies. I totally accept your point that the Lib Dems are junior partners and so most of the policy will come from the Tory side, but surely there should be something concrete that the Lib Dems can point to after 6 months.

The two things that I can think of are the AV vote, which the Tories aren't supporting, isn't PR anyway, and comes with some appallingly undemocratic catches, and the pupil premium, which is a really good idea and a Lib Dem policy that I would happily support, but the devil is in the small print and the small print shows that the only similarity with the original policy is the name.

Meanwhile we have Lib Dems wheeled out every time there's bad news to deliver and the sight of senior Lib Dems laughing and hooting and clapping George Osbourne on the back as he announces that a million people are to be made redundant.

I look from Clegg to Cameron, and from Cameron to Clegg, and from Clegg to Cameron again; but already it's impossible to say which is which.

as you say its not a 50-50 partnership .. its very much one sided but thats the way of things when in this situation.

the Lib dems have to work on the fact of trying to temper the tory policies rather than get theirs through, and pick and chose their battles on their own policies..

I agree with CKN that there is duplicitousness (is that a word) in the politicians but this is across all parties.. and they are all the same... so you cant brand one party its the lot of them, they are no better than they were, lessons have not been learnt and i think apathy towrds it will get worse due to it.. the whinnying with alexander shows that no one has learnt that people do not want general bitchyness they want to hear proper policy debate not one upmanship from the playground..

as for the clapping hollaring etc... its amazing that Labour MPs were booing plans that will hopefully get us out of the mess that we are in.. do they want us to stay in recession and be in debt for our childrens' children... problem is for what you see.. cheering redundancy.. someone else will see.. cheering a great policy to help bring the economy and public sector in line.. for the boos you see.. people sticking up for the workers.. others see.. mps booing that this may actually work and believing that they would have got it right even though they managed to cause half the issues themselves..

as i said.. we all have opinions and they wont meet.. so be it.. it be a sad place if we did.

[Steve May]

as for the clapping hollaring etc... its amazing that Labour MPs were booing plans that will hopefully get us out of the mess that we are in.. do they want us to stay in recession and be in debt for our childrens' children... problem is for what you see.. cheering redundancy.. someone else will see.. cheering a great policy to help bring the economy and public sector in line.. for the boos you see.. people sticking up for the workers.. others see.. mps booing that this may actually work and believing that they would have got it right even though they managed to cause half the issues themselves..

I think it's very childish to shout and boo at policy announcements when you disagree with them. But I think it's absolutely bloody shameful when you cheer and barrack for policies that will put somewhere in the region of a million people out of work.

Imagine you worked for big company and they announced they were going to sack 10,000 people, including you, in order to reduce costs and bring the company back into profit. Do you think it would appropriate for the CEO to stand there at a press conference and make the announcement surrounded by board members who are all jumping up and down cheering with excitement like monkeys who've just discovered a never-ending banana tree?

Even if, and it's a massive if, the government plans are the right thing to do then they'll still cause a lot of pain and heartache for a lot of people. As a Lib Dem you might want to remember that and perhaps you could have a word with your local MP, if you have one, about toning down the gloating when announcements like this are being made.

If a Labour minister stood up and announced the redundancies of a million people in the same fashion I'd be just as nauseated.

[JohnM]

policies that will put somewhere in the region of a million people out of work.

Even if that were true, it does not have to be that way, especially if there was worker solidarity and if the unions really were to look after the interests of their members.


The working class can kiss my ######, we'll keep the red flag flying here

Edited by JohnM, 05 November 2010 - 10:08 AM.

[WearyRhino]

Even if that were true, it does not have to be that way, especially if there was worker solidarity and if the unions really were to look after the interests of their members.


The working class can kiss my ######, we'll keep the red flag flying here

It wouldn't have to be this way if greedy bankers and tax avoiders were made to pay what the owe.

[JohnM]

Actually, if Brown has let Northern Rock go to the wall, then his mates the greedy and unregulated bankers would have realised the game was up and sorted themselves out.

Lloyds were duped into buying HBOS by Brown, RBS failed with AMB AMRO takeover.

Gordon Brown is Scottish.
RBS is Scottish
HBOS is er...

Neither Barclay's nor HSBC were bailed out by the taxpayer.

[del capo]

Here's one for you. In April, the Lib Dems warned that student fees could go up to £7000 under the Tories, instead of that £7000, they're going to a maximum of £9000.

There's only one type of politician these days: A lying weasel who will do anything and say anything to get a vote then change direction without a single hint of shame when they get a sniff of power. That applies to all parties, not just the Lib Dems.

Just watched the North West Edition of the Politics show. Does anyone think that Phil Woolas is even better qualified now to be President of Barla, should they take it out of politics altogether, or should they pass the ball to a safer pair of hands in the Lords, such as David Hinchcliffe, Peter Smith or Doug Hoyle ???