53 replies to this topic

[gingerjon]

Then they don't have much grounds for complaint.

I don't remember them complaining. And I agree that flinging 'em out for breaking visa regulations isn't a problem.

But the initial statements from Greater Manchester Police alleged that all manner of nasty stuff had already been found with more to follow.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, was found.

[Steve May]

On the subject of the MP in question, he stuck this on his Twitter feed about an hour ago: "There are many reasons we lost power. I was not one of them."

Fairly typical attitude of many in the party: Labour lost entirely because of Gordon Brown, not one other person in the party should share the blame and no-one else needs to change.

I have to say that the Labour Party didn't lose because of anything to do with civil liberties directly. The MP on twitter is quite right when he says it not an issue that comes up on the doorstep.

People on the doorstep care about their jobs, their health, their kids education, crime and dogsh!t on the streets.

Lots of activists were lost to the party because they were unhappy about civil liberties, amongst other things, but the voters left for other reasons.

[Steve May]

Generally I value liberty more than security, but it's easy to say that when you haven't lived in a country that resembles something out of Mad Max. Try asking a Somali "what concerns you most? Having your family home blown up by a mortar shell and your youngest child blasted into mush...again, or people being imprisoned without trial."

In most cases security is a necessary component of liberty. I recall a quote from somewhere about good men sleeping easy in their beds because rough men stand guard.

[Steve May]

ID cards so police could identify the suicade bombers after the event.

ID cards aren't a civil liberties issue, no more than having an NI number or paying tax is.


Many of the civil liberties campaigners are every bit as hysterical, in their own way, as the security obsessed idiots they rail against.

[gingerjon]

ID cards aren't a civil liberties issue, no more than having an NI number or paying tax is.

How the data is collected, maintained and who has access to it and for what reason is.

The ID card scheme was utterly utterly illiberal and a complete white elephant.

If all it was was an extension of the NI card and/or driving licence I'd have absolutely no problem with it.

That said, I doubt you heard much about that on the stump either.

[Steve May]

How the data is collected, maintained and who has access to it and for what reason is.

The ID card scheme was utterly utterly illiberal and a complete white elephant.

If all it was was an extension of the NI card and/or driving licence I'd have absolutely no problem with it.

That said, I doubt you heard much about that on the stump either.

Total number of times ID cards mentioned to me in recent election - zero


I'm glad to see we agree that ID cards are not a civil liberties issue and that what you do with ID cards is potentially a very grave civil liberties issue.

Too many "liberals"* confuse neutral things like ID cards with utterly illiberal things like the "sus" laws that David Cameron admitted he was keen on a few years back and that the government is slyly working to bring back in practice if not in outright law.

ID cards, and more importantly the data that underpins them, are potentially an enormously powerful tool to revolutionise the delivery of public services. Other countries, ones generally considered to be very liberal, use them in this way. So should we.

I do not like ID cards, but on balance I think the benefits outweigh the costs.



* liberals with a small l, which for all our differences would probably include both of us.

[Northern Sol]

And just to repeat this part - my understanding is (and I can't find the reference now) that of the apparent stopped attacks that the majority would have been carried out by people identified as White Christians.

That would surprise me unless Northern Ireland was included in the stats (and even then it would surprise me).

[gingerjon]

That would surprise me unless Northern Ireland was included in the stats (and even then it would surprise me).

I can't find a UK specific one (and I'm sure I've seen one) but this from the lovingly named 'Loonwatch' has the Europol results: Link.

[Northern Sol]

I can't find a UK specific one (and I'm sure I've seen one) but this from the lovingly named 'Loonwatch' has the Europol results: Link.

He is being somewhat disingenuous with statistics here. Obviously there isn't a register of terrorists but using the number of attacks as "proof" of the numbers of terrorists is extremely point-of-view.

Most of the numbers in that survey come from ETA and whilst they do carry out a large number of attacks; I doubt that they have killed as many people as Islamists.

The worst bombing in the NI "troubles" was Omagh but the London bombing of 7/7 killed more people and in fact the terrorist incident that killed the most Britons was actually 9/11. So the implied conclusion that Islamists are less of a threat than "domestic" terrorists is highly dubious especially since only Spain and France had a major problem.

Edited by Northern Sol, 09 November 2010 - 02:01 PM.

[gingerjon]

So the implied conclusion that Islamists are less of a threat than "domestic" terrorists is highly dubious especially since only Spain and France had a major problem.

I don't think that's his conclusion and it isn't mine. I said the majority of terrorists, at least those active here, are not Muslims. That is clearly the case. The white ones might not be as brutal or successful in terms of killing (if you're not prepared to blow yourself up then you'll obviously have less of an impact) but they are more numerous.

And that is what I said.

So the next time someone says that most terrorists are Muslims you can tell them that they are ignorant bigoted blowhards.

[RP London]

I don't think that's his conclusion and it isn't mine. I said the majority of terrorists, at least those active here, are not Muslims. That is clearly the case. The white ones might not be as brutal or successful in terms of killing (if you're not prepared to blow yourself up then you'll obviously have less of an impact) but they are more numerous.

And that is what I said.

So the next time someone says that most terrorists are Muslims you can tell them that they are ignorant bigoted blowhards.

plus the more succesful the islamic terrorists are the less of them there are.. i believe this is a classic catch 22.. or is it hobsons choice.. not sure

[Northern Sol]

I don't think that's his conclusion and it isn't mine. I said the majority of terrorists, at least those active here, are not Muslims. That is clearly the case.

It is not clearly the case or you would use UK statistics rather than European ones.

The white ones might not be as brutal or successful in terms of killing (if you're not prepared to blow yourself up then you'll obviously have less of an impact) but they are more numerous.

And that is what I said.

So the next time someone says that most terrorists are Muslims you can tell them that they are ignorant bigoted blowhards.

That's not a conclusion you can draw from the data you used.

[bowes]

That would surprise me unless Northern Ireland was included in the stats (and even then it would surprise me).

Supposedly 4 separist (i.e. NI), 3 Islamist and 1 'other' from 2006-08. Conveniently 2005 was ignored, and this year's figures seem to have a lot more Islamist terrorist attempts. The short answer is in Great Britain Islamists are the biggest threat in NI it is sectarianism

I do wonder what counts as terrorism to give those figures for the Basques as they do seem extreme

Edited by bowes, 09 November 2010 - 07:03 PM.

[Northern Sol]

Supposedly 4 separist (i.e. NI), 3 Islamist and 1 'other' from 2006-08. Conveniently 2005 was ignored, and this year's figures seem to have a lot more Islamist terrorist attempts. The short answer is in Great Britain Islamists are the biggest threat in NI it is sectarianism

I do wonder what counts as terrorism to give those figures for the Basques as they do seem extreme

Unsuccessful attempts don't seem to have been included (at least in the Islamist stats). As you say very much a case of picking the stats that fit a particular argument.