85 replies to this topic

[Millman]

Given that we still (just about) have a welfare state, and conscription to the British armed forces ended decades ago has the poppy appeal got any legitimate appeal any more?

Professional soldiers should surely make their own insurance arrangements, and also be covered by their suitable schemes set out by their employers.

[Just Browny]

The Poppy appeal is fine by me, it gets us all thinking about the sacrifices that were made in the early part of the last century and must earn a few quid to improve the lives of veterans etc.

On the other hand, the points you make are perfectly valid regarding insurance etc. and you'd like to think people entering the armed forces are well aware of the fact they might get shot. That's why I get upset when the general public seemed perplexed that I don't want to pour my entire disposable income into the Help for Heroes charity, many of whose most vehement supporters make Nick Griffin look moderate.

[Number 16]

Given that we still (just about) have a welfare state, and conscription to the British armed forces ended decades ago has the poppy appeal got any legitimate appeal any more?

Professional soldiers should surely make their own insurance arrangements, and also be covered by their suitable schemes set out by their employers.

How about you crawl back under your stone.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

How about you crawl back under your stone.

I disagree with what Millman says,but he makes a valid point.
After world war one there was little support for maimed soldiers. The Haigh fund filled the gap to some extent. The situation is now different.
So why buy a poppy? It symbolises your empathy with people who have suffered in war. You pay a small price to do this-the price of a poppy: a few pence a few quid, whatever you want to pay. Who else is going to get the money? I have a few misgivings about the publicity campaign and the earlier and earlier date we seem tro be 'expected' to wear a poppy. For some reason the newsreaders take the lead here. It's a personal thing. Nobody should be criticised for not buying a poppy. I buy one because it means something to me to do this. If others don't fancy it, or express misgivings about it I'm fine with that.
It's a personal thing. Nobody needs to 'crawl back under a stone' or have some guilt trip laid on them.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 09 November 2010 - 10:34 PM.

[Bedford Roughyed]

The poppy appeal helps any serviceman from pensioners to the newly injured or their families. There are plenty of old 'vets' getting help from the Legion.

The modern day soldier does have insurance, though like most insurance it doesn't cover you for everything and the ongoing costs of an injury. Amateur RL players have insurance, they know the risks but I don't knock the RL benevolent fund for helping more. Add the help the Legion does in helping greiving families and I think its a worthwhile fund.

I buy one every year but don't generally wear it, don't know why really just never have. Jon Snow is probably the only mainstream person on TV who doesn't wear one (he does on remembrance Sunday).

[ckn]

There still is seriously inadequate support for soldiers and people leaving the armed services under difficult circumstances. Even those who leave under good circumstances often need different sorts of help to those who haven't experienced armed service. The RBL provides a service that is desperately needed and is still desperately underfunded.

Assume a soldier killed in service. His family will receive basic offers of help from an embarrassed Families Officer and a pension but it's never enough to deal with the loss of a husband, father, son or friend. The RBL and all the other charities provide the service that the state either can't or won't provide. Even compensation from the state schemes can take massively and disproportionately long times meaning the charities have a strong role to provide in advising soldiers and families, lobbying officials and putting on serious pressure to get things done. You really would not believe the jobsworths that work in some MoD offices who see it as their personal duty to make claiming owed money as difficult as possible.

On what the charities do that needs funding, I have one example linked in my signature block. One of their main aims is to provide holidays for seriously injured soldiers and their families or the families of dead soldiers. They also provide emergency same-day assistance for ex-soldiers who find themselves in a position of personal disaster from homelessness to emergency care needs. This is stuff that fills a very welcome hole that the state really is in no position to cover.

On insurance, I feel that a soldier should NEVER have to pay for private insurance, he's sent there by the state, the state should meet every single penny of every cost necessary regardless of the cost to the state. Personal insurance for a soldier going to an armed conflict zone is hugely expensive and can cost more than a soldier earns after deductions for some trades. A Private earning £17,000 a year should never be expected to fund his own insurance.

I'll never put a guilt-trip on someone not wearing a poppy. I stuck my money in a tin last week and have the poppy on my dining table unworn. I'll wear it on Thursday and Sunday but apart from that I have nothing to prove, I've donated and I also have my medals to show that I've done my service. If I have one more tin-rattler sniffing at me this year because I'm not wearing a poppy I'll lose it. Either buy one or don't, just don't come over all morally superior based on your choice in the matter.

(Footnote: if you're interested, here's an update on what Holidays4Heroes has done over the last six months.)

[Severus]

I disagree with what Millman says,but he makes a valid point.
After world war one there was little support for maimed soldiers. The Haigh fund filled the gap to some extent. The situation is now different.
So why buy a poppy? It symbolises your empathy with people who have suffered in war. You pay a small price to do this-the price of a poppy: a few pence a few quid, whatever you want to pay. Who else is going to get the money? I have a few misgivings about the publicity campaign and the earlier and earlier date we seem tro be 'expected' to wear a poppy. For some reason the newsreaders take the lead here. It's a personal thing. Nobody should be criticised for not buying a poppy. I buy one because it means something to me to do this. If others don't fancy it, or express misgivings about it I'm fine with that.
It's a personal thing. Nobody needs to 'crawl back under a stone' or have some guilt trip laid on them.

Good post.

[RP London]

I disagree with what Millman says,but he makes a valid point.
After world war one there was little support for maimed soldiers. The Haigh fund filled the gap to some extent. The situation is now different.
So why buy a poppy? It symbolises your empathy with people who have suffered in war. You pay a small price to do this-the price of a poppy: a few pence a few quid, whatever you want to pay. Who else is going to get the money? I have a few misgivings about the publicity campaign and the earlier and earlier date we seem tro be 'expected' to wear a poppy. For some reason the newsreaders take the lead here. It's a personal thing. Nobody should be criticised for not buying a poppy. I buy one because it means something to me to do this. If others don't fancy it, or express misgivings about it I'm fine with that.
It's a personal thing. Nobody needs to 'crawl back under a stone' or have some guilt trip laid on them.

I agree... my wife doesnt wear one and wont and i completely understand why.
I on the other hand will 9 times out of 10 buy one and possibly wear it.. for me its a good thing and is the right thing to have there and it very much has its place. Soldiers etc have insurance but everyone knows that insurance never covers everything.

[Millman]

How about you crawl back under your stone.

What exactly is your issue here?

For me the poppy appeal has always been about supporting those veterans/dependants of the first and second world wars when conscription into the forces was still around. There aren’t too many of these people left are there? All those that fought in my family are now dead and did not need the help of the Haig fund.

Since the Second World War we have had the advent of the welfare state and those soldiers that have been in conflicts post conscription have made a professional choice to do so; a professional career choice to put themselves in danger and be brave. Are those that get hurt/killed any different to blokes that get hurt/killed on building sites?

I fully endorse that the counselling and support given is a very worthty cause, but clearly in my view this should be state funded and people that have worked for an employer and been adversely effected by it should have the full support of that employer, in this case the government, to get them straight again.

FWIW I buy a poppy every year, exactly for the reasons that JB outlines.

[JohnM]

I guess it might be expensive or even impossible for a member of the armed services on active duty to get any sort of insurance. Nor should they need to.

I support the Poppy appeal ( and other charities) in my own way by contributing. However, I generally don't wear a Poppy for a number of reasons. One place I worked in the 1990s, it was "expected" that you wore one. I appreciate the symbology but its my choice.

I seem to recall that maybe in the 1980s, the whole thing was fading away, the 2 mins silence on the 11th hour of the 11th day etc had been relegated by the BBC to Remembrance Sunday. Now its all back, supermarkets , shops everywhere as a poignant reminder, and good thing too.

[gingerjon]

I seem to recall that maybe in the 1980s, the whole thing was fading away, the 2 mins silence on the 11th hour of the 11th day etc had been relegated by the BBC to Remembrance Sunday. Now its all back, supermarkets , shops everywhere as a poignant reminder, and good thing too.

It definitely was fading away - up until at least the late 90s it was a bit of a jolt to notice that it was suddenly Remembrance Sunday.

Whenever there's an unpopular war or troops are dying for no reason then we get this extra push to remember the fallen. Not: consider the conflict. But honour the dead and, to a lesser extent, the injured.

Remembrance as the best way of forgetting the futility.

I do buy a poppy but I never wear it. I object, for example, to how Little Ginger's school is insisting that all parents buy a poppy for their children. I appreciate the need to teach about the armed forces and remembrance but not to force that act on anyone.

[WearyRhino]

There is an unspoken law in this country that says you are never allowed to speak ill of professional soldiers, sailors and members of the air force. I applaud Millman and Just Browny for having the bottle to raise the subject, but will not be surprised by the responses of others who don't like free speech in this matter.

I wear a poppy to show my solidarity with those who died or were otherwise affected by fighting in a conscript armed forces. I do NOT wear it to commemorate professionals in the current armed forces and I resent any monies going towards compensation for their death or injury which should be the responsibility of the state who sent them to fight, in the same way in which any other who worker who suffers injury or dies during their employment should also be provided for. Sadly, whilst a professional member of the armed services will be provided for, very few other workers or their families will - and indeed some will be told to "get off their lazy workshy backsides and find work" or have their benefits withdrawn.

The fact is people join the armed forces knowing full well what the job is about and what the potential consequences are. For many it is a much better lifestyle and wealthier occupation than they could ever achieve in civilian life and provides for a very generous 'public sector pension' at the end of their employment. For some others it provides expensive education and training that they would otherwise have to pay for themselves and which sets them up very nicely for work in Civvy Street. Whilst it is regrettable that anyone dies or is maimed under any circumstances, death and injury is amongst the stock in trade of the armed forces. Maybe it is time that Recruiting Sergeants talked a little less about seeing the world and learning a trade and a little more about war, death and killing.

I await the vitriol.

[RP London]

What exactly is your issue here?

For me the poppy appeal has always been about supporting those veterans/dependants of the first and second world wars when conscription into the forces was still around. There aren’t too many of these people left are there? All those that fought in my family are now dead and did not need the help of the Haig fund.

Since the Second World War we have had the advent of the welfare state and those soldiers that have been in conflicts post conscription have made a professional choice to do so; a professional career choice to put themselves in danger and be brave. Are those that get hurt/killed any different to blokes that get hurt/killed on building sites?

I fully endorse that the counselling and support given is a very worthty cause, but clearly in my view this should be state funded and people that have worked for an employer and been adversely effected by it should have the full support of that employer, in this case the government, to get them straight again.

FWIW I buy a poppy every year, exactly for the reasons that JB outlines.

I understand both you and weary rhino and of course as mentioned my wifes stance.. i do it more in remembrance of the larger scale conflicts that we had to fight in in the 20th century.. Help For Heroes seems to have taken the guard for the ones of this century and i see that as a distinction.. i support help for heroes (family in the forces etc) but wheather i would wear their stuff i am not sure..i dont wear the wrist band i bought etc as i get the feeling it is being used to show solidarity and support for the wars.. i support those out there (its not their choice which war they fight in) but i dont support the wars..

one point i would make.. you use the end of wwII as the end of conscription.. but fail to see National service.. many of the men who fought in korea etc were there due to national service (my grandfather's business partner was one for example) and other skirmishes at the time like suez etc would have those on national service within their ranks.. as such they were not professional and were forced to be there.. so i also wear it for them.. there is some time to go for them i hope.

For me the Poppy appeal is also about the relatives.. you can have all the insurance you like but it never covers the real loss.. the potential that changes (kids education is now more expensive etc, than perhaps when the person was killed on active duty and the insurance policy was there and was set up with the circumstances of hte day in mind.. healthcare being a bit of a lottery also etc etc) so for me it is about all of that..

but i do understand the other side of the thought process.. it is a charity after all and is about personal decisions.. you should not be forced to do anything.. to do that is sort of missing the point of one of the biggest (if not the biggest) conflict being remembered by the ruddy flowers!! irony or what?

i am near as dammit 100% sure everyone on here will remember the fallen in the major conflicts with regret that these people died... very few will be pleased they did or dance around but the poppy symbolises other things to some people and there is a reason to not wear it for them.. that doesnt mean they done want to remember those who died in the world wars and other conflicts though.

Edited by RP London, 10 November 2010 - 10:56 AM.

[Millman]

one point i would make.. you use the end of wwII as the end of conscription.. but fail to see National service.. many of the men who fought in korea etc were there due to national service (my grandfather's business partner was one for example) and other skirmishes at the time like suez etc would have those on national service within their ranks.. as such they were not professional and were forced to be there.. so i also wear it for them.. there is some time to go for them i hope.

You'd be wrong on that point. I was very careful not to use the end of WWII as the end of conscription as I wasn't entirely sure when it ended, and didn't really want to divert the debate (or look up all the other conflicts). That's why I said "those soldiers that have been in conflicts post conscription have made a professional choice to do so". I could have been cleare though.

Pretty much all charities are worthy causes. Seeing them fight it out in highly organised marketing campaigns for donations from Joe Public is degrading for everybody involved.

[Tiny Tim]

There is an unspoken law in this country that says you are never allowed to speak ill of professional soldiers, sailors and members of the air force. I applaud Millman and Just Browny for having the bottle to raise the subject, but will not be surprised by the responses of others who don't like free speech in this matter.

I wear a poppy to show my solidarity with those who died or were otherwise affected by fighting in a conscript armed forces. I do NOT wear it to commemorate professionals in the current armed forces and I resent any monies going towards compensation for their death or injury which should be the responsibility of the state who sent them to fight, in the same way in which any other who worker who suffers injury or dies during their employment should also be provided for. Sadly, whilst a professional member of the armed services will be provided for, very few other workers or their families will - and indeed some will be told to "get off their lazy workshy backsides and find work" or have their benefits withdrawn.

The fact is people join the armed forces knowing full well what the job is about and what the potential consequences are. For many it is a much better lifestyle and wealthier occupation than they could ever achieve in civilian life and provides for a very generous 'public sector pension' at the end of their employment. For some others it provides expensive education and training that they would otherwise have to pay for themselves and which sets them up very nicely for work in Civvy Street. Whilst it is regrettable that anyone dies or is maimed under any circumstances, death and injury is amongst the stock in trade of the armed forces. Maybe it is time that Recruiting Sergeants talked a little less about seeing the world and learning a trade and a little more about war, death and killing.

I await the vitriol.

Have to agree with that. I also do not agree with the idea that every dead/injured soldier is a 'hero', it's a risk of the job and a tragic loss, but to award hero status to all these unfortunates is a disservice to those who truely do go above and beyond.

[ckn]

There is an unspoken law in this country that says you are never allowed to speak ill of professional soldiers, sailors and members of the air force. I applaud Millman and Just Browny for having the bottle to raise the subject, but will not be surprised by the responses of others who don't like free speech in this matter.

I wear a poppy to show my solidarity with those who died or were otherwise affected by fighting in a conscript armed forces. I do NOT wear it to commemorate professionals in the current armed forces and I resent any monies going towards compensation for their death or injury which should be the responsibility of the state who sent them to fight, in the same way in which any other who worker who suffers injury or dies during their employment should also be provided for. Sadly, whilst a professional member of the armed services will be provided for, very few other workers or their families will - and indeed some will be told to "get off their lazy workshy backsides and find work" or have their benefits withdrawn.

I agree with the sentiments in your second paragraph bar the last sentence. The state does NOT adequately provide for ex-servicemen who leave due to injuries or their families if they're killed. You will get a basic pension if you leave severely injured but it's not great and does not allow a quality of life any higher than on benefits. In fact, every penny you get as a pension is removed from the civilian benefits you could claim. It used to be excluded but that changed about a decade ago. You've done your time now shove off.

In terms of compensation, you get more from a civilian court in compensation for mid-grade RSI in your wrists than you do in the army for losing both legs. And you're automatically barred from suing the state for higher compensation.

The fact is people join the armed forces knowing full well what the job is about and what the potential consequences are. For many it is a much better lifestyle and wealthier occupation than they could ever achieve in civilian life and provides for a very generous 'public sector pension' at the end of their employment. For some others it provides expensive education and training that they would otherwise have to pay for themselves and which sets them up very nicely for work in Civvy Street. Whilst it is regrettable that anyone dies or is maimed under any circumstances, death and injury is amongst the stock in trade of the armed forces. Maybe it is time that Recruiting Sergeants talked a little less about seeing the world and learning a trade and a little more about war, death and killing.

I await the vitriol.

I think you do not understand the army system. A Private soldier just finished training will be on £17,000. For that, they are available for work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. If you go on exercise for 3 weeks where you're doing 20-ish hour days every day, you get the same pay. If you go abroad on detached duty, you get a pitiful extra separation allowance if you're married. Your food and accommodation must be paid for, contrary to some reports, and until you get a couple of promotions as a single soldier you're living in shared rooms with 1-6 other soldiers. If you were to add up every genuinely worked hour for a soldier, you'd find that the wages often come to below minimum wage and it takes a few grade progressions before that improves to above minimum wage.

Once you leave, the UK is among one of the worst states in the world for recognising ex-servicemen. Once you're out, your out and they could not care less whether you end up on the street with your family. Many councils refuse to recognise servicemen as having ties to an area when they leave the army meaning they do their damnedest to avoid their statutory duty to house them. My Canadian friend has a "veteran" number plate on his car issued by the state that allows him all sorts of parking lee-way and he gets substantial other benefits. Boris in London gave free tube journeys to "war pensioner" servicemen but even that's being withdrawn very soon. The state will give you a nice lapel pin though.

On pensions, a 22 year service Corporal will get a pension under £10,000 a year, a Sgt about £10,500 or less, a Major not too much higher. Not exactly "gold plated". Again, that all counts towards means-tested benefits and is fully taxable.

For that, you get dicked about relentlessly when in barracks, you get sent to some of the worst places on earth, you get shot at and abused. All around, it's a damnably hard work for an hourly rate of pay that'd be illegal in a civilian company.

So, why do people join? Some join for family connection reasons, some join because they've always wanted to be soldiers, one hell of a lot join because there would be no other job for them. I read a study from the US last year that showed some towns in the US being essentially depopulated of young people because they're joining the armed services as their only way to avoid a life of unemployment. It is a good life in the army though where you learn what friends really are and I'd still join if I had my time again.

Yes, you're 100% entitled to complain about the army, it is a free country and there is free speech. Might be best if you learned more facts about what you're complaining about though.

On the actual Remembrance Day and Sunday, again, it's a free country, you're entitled to use it as you see fit and remember who you see fit. I personally use it as a day when I specifically put aside time to remember those I knew in service who died and to reinforce my moral standings on the subject of war. As the old saying goes, I'm not against war, I'm for peace. I'll leave you alone if you leave me and my friends alone but attack me I'll come at you with the biggest stick I can find.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

There is an unspoken law in this country that says you are never allowed to speak ill of professional soldiers, sailors and members of the air force. I applaud Millman and Just Browny for having the bottle to raise the subject, but will not be surprised by the responses of others who don't like free speech in this matter.

I wear a poppy to show my solidarity with those who died or were otherwise affected by fighting in a conscript armed forces. I do NOT wear it to commemorate professionals in the current armed forces and I resent any monies going towards compensation for their death or injury which should be the responsibility of the state who sent them to fight, in the same way in which any other who worker who suffers injury or dies during their employment should also be provided for. Sadly, whilst a professional member of the armed services will be provided for, very few other workers or their families will - and indeed some will be told to "get off their lazy workshy backsides and find work" or have their benefits withdrawn.

The fact is people join the armed forces knowing full well what the job is about and what the potential consequences are. For many it is a much better lifestyle and wealthier occupation than they could ever achieve in civilian life and provides for a very generous 'public sector pension' at the end of their employment. For some others it provides expensive education and training that they would otherwise have to pay for themselves and which sets them up very nicely for work in Civvy Street. Whilst it is regrettable that anyone dies or is maimed under any circumstances, death and injury is amongst the stock in trade of the armed forces. Maybe it is time that Recruiting Sergeants talked a little less about seeing the world and learning a trade and a little more about war, death and killing.

I await the vitriol.

great post and more or less where I'm coming from.
we both buy a poppy I don't have a problem with the money I pay helping the casualties of modedrn war.

[GeordieSaint]

Maybe it is time that Recruiting Sergeants talked a little less about seeing the world and learning a trade and a little more about war, death and killing.

Recruiting Sgts don't need to talk about war, death and killing as it is plastered all over the media (and they do to be fair - I have seen a recruiting NCO with one leg recently!). Joining the Armed Forces nowadays is a very different proposition to recent years. We are smaller, you will be sent to Afghanistan, usually within two years of joining and you will come under fire. Anyone thinking about joining the military should understand this as you cannot fail to miss it, unless they are complete muppets of course!!

I fully understand your thoughts and everyone elses who disagree with funding injuried professional soldiers. The state SHOULD fund the welfare and treatment of injuried soldiers. However, as Ckn stated, it is still inadequate, hence charities like Help for Heroes been created. The care received in Headley Court and Selly Oak is good but due to the nature of the injuries occurring at the moment, many people require care and treatment for life and the system is not good enough to deal with this. Payouts for soldiers are ridiclous when you consider how much tribunals give to people with 'strained wrists from typing'. Sadly these payouts do not cover half the costs required. Hence, we all take out private insurance. It costs me £78 a month to cover for accident and life insurance, so basically a lot of money. It is voluntary but is definitely required.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and every member of the Armed Forces would respect that.

[sam]

Have to agree with that. I also do not agree with the idea that every dead/injured soldier is a 'hero', it's a risk of the job and a tragic loss, but to award hero status to all these unfortunates is a disservice to those who truely do go above and beyond.

speaking as a confirmed coward, anyone who signs on the dotted line and picks up his rifle goes above and beyond.

[JohnM]

I think, too that the British legion and other charities do a great job and re much more effective and efficient than the state would be.

Leave it all to the state and there would be a huge department set up, at immense cost, to deliver less benefit, too. At least this way you know where your money goes.

As for WearyRhino's posts, it woudl be interesting to hear from him who on this forum doesn't like free speech in this matter.