31 replies to this topic

[Bob8]

Imagine you weren't a fan of the Queen, so you were shot, that's about the strenghth of it. An event called the Spansh civil war occured in the 20th centuty, have a read.

Then once you've read, ask yourself why Barcelona wear Crimson as one of their cherished colours.

It's a similar scenario to Glasgow Rangers wearing red bands at the top of their socks.

I think some of the mood of the Catalans at the time was attempted to be covered in the song "If you tolerate this, then your children will be next."

Was the crimson not in the original design, following Bern or Merchant Taylor (says Wikipedia)?

Why the red bands?

You can excuse a man for not knowing the sporting politics of a major event.

[Saint Rich]

Thanks for the replies. Some interesting background there.

[yanto]

Soccer is tarnished with mythes and history.

AJAX are hated by Feijenoord and are known as a Juda (Jewish) club, but if Rotterdam supporters (both Feijenoord and Sparta) studied their history,especialy during the second world war, then they may have their eyes opened.
Simon Kuijper..Ajax, the Dutch,the War is an excellent read.
Ajax,the Dutch,the war

I guess the Spanish situation may be the same myth.

[marklaspalmas]

Soccer is tarnished with mythes and history.

AJAX are hated by Feijenoord and are known as a Juda (Jewish) club, but if Rotterdam supporters (both Feijenoord and Sparta) studied their history,especialy during the second world war, then they may have their eyes opened.
Simon Kuijper..Ajax, the Dutch,the War is an excellent read.
Ajax,the Dutch,the war

I guess the Spanish situation may be the same myth.

I know next to nothing about Dutch football, but what we're talking about here is no myth.

[Andrew Vause]

Was the crimson not in the original design, following Bern or Merchant Taylor (says Wikipedia)?

Why the red bands?

You can excuse a man for not knowing the sporting politics of a major event.

It was really politics it was more faschism and dictatorship.

Barcelona's original kit was more of a Red and Blue stripe much like the One that Crystal Palace wear today and the same colour of FC Basel who had connections with Barcelona upon formation.

The colour became more Crimson or Carmine as 'Grana' sort of translates. This was in honour of the crimson stripes on the flag of Catalonia/Catalunya. The colour of those stripes are said to represent the blood that was shed by the Catalans over the years whilst fighting the Nationalists.

[Stevo]

Kind of, but of course Franco wasn't a 'politician', he was a military dictator. Madrid wasn't by any means a Francoist city and the war for the nationalist forces to capture it was long and bloody.

Franco did have very centralist ideas with respect to his concept of "Spain" as a nation. As well as all the customary jingoism he imposed on the population, he also worked hard to crush regionalism, principally the basques & catalans*.

A big strong football team called Real Madrid, playing in white and dominating Spanish and European football (many successive European Cups) fitted in perfectly with his ideas, and so at boardroom level, every help & assistance was given to "Spain's club". This just made the fans of Bilbao, Barca, At. Madrid and all the rest hate them more. Safe in the knowledge that the administration (and often the refs) were in their favour, the Real fans developed that smug sense of entitlement and superiority which still marks them today.

When the catalan and basque languages were banned, the terraces of San Mames and Nou Cmap were two palces where there was sufficient safety in numbers to chant (often anti-franco) songs in their own language.

I don't think the players ever really had anything to do with it, but given that the situation was widely understood, then going to play for Real always had undeniable political undertones.

Despite the set up, Madrid's domination in the period 39 to 75 was far from complete.

During that time, the Spanish FA Cup was called the Copa del Generalissimo. This in itself was a fantastic motivation for a basque or catalan to try and win the Cup, just to watch the despicable midget's fce as he handed over the silverware.


* Although we tend to focus on those two regions, many many more people suffered as bad and much worse under the regime. The Canary islands crminally neglected by the mainland, the Galicians too (Ironic as Franco was gallego). Of course for anyone of less than firmly right wing, catholic, military tastes, times were permenantly grim.

Cheers - thanks for the detail.

And you're absolutely right - my choice of the word "politician" to describe Franco was a poor one.

[Celt]

I was watching El Classico, while surfing a popular Celtic supporters' website. Almost everyone on the site was also watching the big Sanish game, and almost to a man, were supporting Barca.

Various reasons were given, such as Henrik Larsson, Celtic's greatest player of the modern era, moving to Barcelona; the style of football Barca are known for; even their 'rebellious' Catalan identity. However the overriding factor seemed to be that Real Madrid were perceived to be the 'establishment' team in spain, similar to Rangers in Scotland. i am currently reading 'When beckham went to Spain' by Jimmy Burns, which is about far more than the tatooed adidas advert named in the title, and more about the changing culture of Spanish football. It bears out the same theme - Real were long perceived as 'Franco's team' despite the fact that large numbers of their supporters were actually opposed to the dictator.

As I say - this is just a perception, but it was interesting to see a relatively large number of people discussing the match on a website, and, to a man, supporting Barcelona, and disliking Madrid.

ps - great performance from Barcelona - incredible football.

pps - Yanto - I have also read Kuper's book - it is indeed very good (and is a translation/update of a Dutch original penned by himself I believe). I am a keen fan of the Eredivisie, and although not an Ajax supporter, i thought it was a very very good read.

[marklaspalmas]

Celt.

When you've finished WBWTS pick up Burns' "Barça, a People's Passion". A better book in my opinion.

Also "Morbo" by Phil Ball is a v.good read on Spanish soccer

[Celt]

thanks Mark. Actually - Morbo is next on my list to buy. It was discussed on the same Celtic site, and i read a couple of extracts. I planned to get a copy at new year.

I didn't really expect 'When Beckham went to Spain' to be particularly great (have found it ok so far...) but i was really looking for a book that talked about Spanish football in general, the culture(s) behind it etc etc. I spotted Morbo afterwards, and it looks to be exactly what i was looking for.

[nadera78]

I was watching El Classico, while surfing a popular Celtic supporters' website. Almost everyone on the site was also watching the big Sanish game, and almost to a man, were supporting Barca.

Various reasons were given, such as Henrik Larsson, Celtic's greatest player of the modern era, moving to Barcelona; the style of football Barca are known for; even their 'rebellious' Catalan identity. However the overriding factor seemed to be that Real Madrid were perceived to be the 'establishment' team in spain, similar to Rangers in Scotland. i am currently reading 'When beckham went to Spain' by Jimmy Burns, which is about far more than the tatooed adidas advert named in the title, and more about the changing culture of Spanish football. It bears out the same theme - Real were long perceived as 'Franco's team' despite the fact that large numbers of their supporters were actually opposed to the dictator.

As I say - this is just a perception, but it was interesting to see a relatively large number of people discussing the match on a website, and, to a man, supporting Barcelona, and disliking Madrid.

ps - great performance from Barcelona - incredible football.

pps - Yanto - I have also read Kuper's book - it is indeed very good (and is a translation/update of a Dutch original penned by himself I believe). I am a keen fan of the Eredivisie, and although not an Ajax supporter, i thought it was a very very good read.

Interesting, given Celtic's own history. Irish Catholic priests gave sermons encouraging young men to travel to Spain to fight alongside Franco against the Republican government.

Of course, there were Irishmen who did the opposite as well.

[Steve May]

Soccer is tarnished with mythes and history.

AJAX are hated by Feijenoord and are known as a Juda (Jewish) club, but if Rotterdam supporters (both Feijenoord and Sparta) studied their history,especialy during the second world war, then they may have their eyes opened.
Simon Kuijper..Ajax, the Dutch,the War is an excellent read.
Ajax,the Dutch,the war

I guess the Spanish situation may be the same myth.

Another book and story worth digging out is "Dynamo: Defending the Honour of Kiev" which is about a group of Dynamo Kiev footballers who played against and beat a Luftwaffe team during the Nazi occupation of Kiev and who got sent to concentration camps for their trouble. Escape to Victory is loosely based on it.

[Steve May]

The colour became more Crimson or Carmine as 'Grana' sort of translates. This was in honour of the crimson stripes on the flag of Catalonia/Catalunya. The colour of those stripes are said to represent the blood that was shed by the Catalans over the years whilst fighting the Nationalists.

That might very well be true, but it also might be the kind of story that gets made up after the more prosaic real event because people prefer it to the true story.

I visited the Nou Camp museum a few years ago and the passion against Franco was very real. I got talking to the tour guide on the official tour and he described Franco as a "cock sucking son of a bitch", which was slightly stiffer language than you usually get on these things.