40 replies to this topic

[bowes]

or debate any religion for that matter
they're all as bad IMHO

They all have their moments, the issue is of course Christianity in England (a few idiots like Stephen Green aside) has become very liberal by its historical standards as have some but not all other religions. The Christianity of some parts of Africa or the Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka to name 2 examples would show any religion can be bad

[Saint Rich]

there are forums out there where frothy mouthed rantings about people who are different to you will be tolerated, this isn't one of them.

What if I'm a muslim?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

They all have their moments, the issue is of course Christianity in England (a few idiots like Stephen Green aside) has become very liberal by its historical standards as have some but not all other religions. The Christianity of some parts of Africa or the Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka to name 2 examples would show any religion can be bad

really?
what is the catholic church's attitude to homosexuality? what has been its stance until recently regarding priests and nuns who have abused children and unmarried mothers for decades? What is its attitude to women clergy? What is the churchg of England's attitude towards female bishops, homosexuality? What is the attitude to evangelist churches to all sorts of stuff? etc etc. Being' libera'l by its 'historical standards' isn't saying much.
That's before we even start on the mumbo jumbo and religion as a means of social control. Why have you separated christianity in africa from the rest of the religion.

I did say by the way that I feel the same about all religion: islam, judaism the lot.

[Northern Sol]

really?
what is the catholic church's attitude to homosexuality? what has been its stance until recently regarding priests and nuns who have abused children and unmarried mothers for decades? What is its attitude to women clergy? What is the churchg of England's attitude towards female bishops, homosexuality? What is the attitude to evangelist churches to all sorts of stuff? etc etc. Being' libera'l by its 'historical standards' isn't saying much.
That's before we even start on the mumbo jumbo and religion as a means of social control. Why have you separated christianity in africa from the rest of the religion.

I did say by the way that I feel the same about all religion: islam, judaism the lot.

I mostly agree with you but there are degrees of illiberalism. Just because they are all guilty doesn't mean that they are all equally guilty.

I think we can agree that the Catholic church's covering up of paedophilia is a much more serious issue than whether they consider homosexuality to be a sin.

Similarly if the Anglican church in England isn't happy about gay priests in relationships; at least they aren't advocating stoning homosexuals to death which happens in parts of Africa.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I mostly agree with you but there are degrees of illiberalism. Just because they are all guilty doesn't mean that they are all equally guilty.

I think we can agree that the Catholic church's covering up of paedophilia is a much more serious issue than whether they consider homosexuality to be a sin.

Similarly if the Anglican church in England isn't happy about gay priests in relationships; at least they aren't advocating stoning homosexuals to death which happens in parts of Africa.

sure
but it isn't just a lack of 'liberalism' that is ther issue: bigotrry, intolerance, exploitation and exclusion aren't the sole presserve of religions.
It's the whole mumbo jumbo, denial of resaon and historical truth that I would find laiughable if it wasn't so dangerous.
the heirachy and the wealth of religions: religions who's followers are often the poorest people on earth

I love church architecture though.

[Wolford6]

Being' libera'l by its 'historical standards' isn't saying much.
That's before we even start on the mumbo jumbo and religion as a means of social control.

I feel the same about all religion: islam, judaism the lot.

Too true, early Christian priests made sure that the story of Lilith was excluded from the Book of Genesis.

Adam . . . asked God to send him a mate, a partner like the other creatures had. God obliged by making Lilith and sending her to Adam. At first he was pleased, but then she opened her mouth, showing that she had a mind of her own. He wanted her to lie beneath him and she promptly refused, saying that they were equal and she would not be subservient to him. Adam flew into a tantrum, so Lilith took off to calmer territory. -- (text by Buffy Childerhose)

[bowes]

really?
what is the catholic church's attitude to homosexuality? what has been its stance until recently regarding priests and nuns who have abused children and unmarried mothers for decades? What is its attitude to women clergy? What is the churchg of England's attitude towards female bishops, homosexuality? What is the attitude to evangelist churches to all sorts of stuff? etc etc. Being' libera'l by its 'historical standards' isn't saying much.
That's before we even start on the mumbo jumbo and religion as a means of social control. Why have you separated christianity in africa from the rest of the religion.

I did say by the way that I feel the same about all religion: islam, judaism the lot.

The paedophile scandal is particularly bad, but there's a difference with a religion disagreeing with homosexuality and one calling for death to homosexuals (and sometimes carrying it out, along with all manner of honour killings). At the end of the day someone disagreeing with women bishops I can live with, someone preaching death to the west, death to gays, death to Jews while living within this country I can't stand (and it is very common in mosques, though certainly not universal); of course I can't stand it anywhere but in a Muslim country it's harder to tell them what to do

Africa I separated purely because we don't live there so it isn't a threat to our society in the way radical Islam very much is (though of course it is becoming a problem with a few deaths of alleged witches in African communities in the UK). Africa was just an example it could have been Texas to a lesser but still bad degree.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

The paedophile scandal is particularly bad, but there's a difference with a religion disagreeing with homosexuality and one calling for death to homosexuals (and sometimes carrying it out, along with all manner of honour killings). At the end of the day someone disagreeing with women bishops I can live with, someone preaching death to the west, death to gays, death to Jews while living within this country I can't stand (and it is very common in mosques, though certainly not universal); of course I can't stand it anywhere but in a Muslim country it's harder to tell them what to do

Africa I separated purely because we don't live there so it isn't a threat to our society in the way radical Islam very much is (though of course it is becoming a problem with a few deaths of alleged witches in African communities in the UK). Africa was just an example it could have been Texas to a lesser but still bad degree.

it wasn't just the scandal and there were, are, and will be many of them. It was the way it was dealt with, by an organisation that thinks it is a law unto itself. Disagreeing(?) with homosexuality and calling for the death of homosexuals is a question of degree. Homophobia is unacceptable. Sexism is unacceptable. Don't Christian fundamentalist preach and carry out death to doctors who terminate pregnancies. saying that one religion isn't quite as bad as the other is hardly a recommendation. Religions of all kinds are practiced all over the world. I don't quite see why you have singled out Africa.

Then there is a question of the muimbo jumbo and the denial of reason, and the controlling of subservient people, by what is in effect a con.
Say Christianity(it could be any religion) hadn't been invented, and someone came up with the idea that this baby was born of a virgin, died and came back to life and ascened to a place called 'heaven', what would you think? I could do the same with the bullshyte of all religions, it's just that I was brought up in a country where Christianity in the form of the church of England has actual political power.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 17 November 2010 - 07:14 PM.

[bowes]

it wasn't just the scandal and there were, are, and will be many of them. It was the way it was dealt with, by an organisation that thinks it is a law unto itself. Disagreeing(?) with homosexuality and calling for the death of homosexuals is a question of degree. Homophobia is unacceptable. Sexism is unacceptable. Don't Christian fundamentalist preach and carry out death to doctors who terminate pregnancies. saying that one religion isn't quite as bad as the other is hardly a recommendation. Religions of all kinds are practiced all over the world. I don't quite see why you have singled out Africa.

Then there is a question of the muimbo jumbo and the denial of reason, and the controlling of subservient people, by what is in effect a con.
Say Christianity(it could be any religion) hadn't been invented, and someone came up with the idea that this baby was born of a virgin, died and came back to life and ascened to a place called 'heaven', what would you think? I could do the same with the bullshyte of all religions, it's just that I was brought up in a country where Christianity in the form of the church of England has actual political power.

I totally agree in theory, just in practice I feel more threatened by a self confident fast growing religion with a very strong grip on his followers than one that is on the way down and long since lost it's grip on the population, with (in the case of most of the Church of England, if not the Catholic Church or evangelicals) relatively liberal views.

Africa is the place Christianity has its worst forms, look up Joseph Kony and the Lord's Resistance Army just among other examples. Trust me it needs singling out (though the Christianity in one part of India is comparable).

Degree of homophobia is a huge difference, I'm sure someone gay would rather someone disagree with gay sex as their private views than want to throw them off a cliff

Edited by bowes, 17 November 2010 - 10:10 PM.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I totally agree in theory, just in practice I feel more threatened by a self confident fast growing religion with a very strong grip on his followers than one that is on the way down and long since lost it's grip on the population, with (in the case of most of the Church of England, if not the Catholic Church or evangelicals) relatively liberal views.

Africa is the place Christianity has its worst forms, look up Joseph Kony and the Lord's Resistance Army just among other examples. Trust me it needs singling out (though the Christianity in one part of India is comparable).

Degree of homophobia is a huge difference, I'm sure someone gay would rather someone disagree with gay sex as their private views than want to throw them off a cliff

all of this is true
none of it supports the idea that any religions are anything else than ways of explopiting, controlling and abusing people
I despise all religions

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 17 November 2010 - 10:36 PM.

[bigred]

I'm no Marxist but he was certainly right about religion being the 'opium of the masses'.
When I think of how much fear and awe the Catholic church instilled in those of my grandparents generation, I get very angry. Every week they dutifully paid to the church far more than they could realistically afford whilst the pederasts and their protectors within the church were abusing their positions!

[Northern Sol]

Too true, early Christian priests made sure that the story of Lilith was excluded from the Book of Genesis.

Adam . . . asked God to send him a mate, a partner like the other creatures had. God obliged by making Lilith and sending her to Adam. At first he was pleased, but then she opened her mouth, showing that she had a mind of her own. He wanted her to lie beneath him and she promptly refused, saying that they were equal and she would not be subservient to him. Adam flew into a tantrum, so Lilith took off to calmer territory. -- (text by Buffy Childerhose)

You've got that mixed up. The story of Lilith was never excluded by Christian priests because it was not a part of the Jewish Torah that Christianity inherited. If anyone "excluded" it, it was the Rabbis, but even then it is more likely that the Lilith story is an "add on" to the Genesis story and was not part of the original story.

[Bob8]

I'm no Marxist but he was certainly right about religion being the 'opium of the masses'.
When I think of how much fear and awe the Catholic church instilled in those of my grandparents generation, I get very angry. Every week they dutifully paid to the church far more than they could realistically afford whilst the pederasts and their protectors within the church were abusing their positions!

I think you quote Marx slightly out of context. The passage is;
"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

He saw religion as the response of people against their oppression, rather than an artificial instrument used to oppress them by someone who dreamed it up as a power tool. He wanted the abolition of religion, but to make people see capitalism in the eye rather than turning away from it.

[bigred]

I think you quote Marx slightly out of context. The passage is;
"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

He saw religion as the response of people against their oppression, rather than an artificial instrument used to oppress them by someone who dreamed it up as a power tool. He wanted the abolition of religion, but to make people see capitalism in the eye rather than turning away from it.

I agree that taken in the context of the 19C and the appalling social conditions of the working class, then Marx was right in seeing religious devotion as an expression of hope in a hopeless and for many, miserable existence. He was also critical of, and aware that there was a 'social construct' to religion too, it was certainly a means to reinforce positions in society.
I don't think his words have the same validity in the here and now, where for the vast majority living conditions are greatly improved.
I think as you say that Marx hoped the abolition of religion would lead to the general populace questioning their position within the capitalist system, with the long term hope being it's eventual overthrow and replacement with a communist system.
I think he has to be seen as an irrelevance these days to be honest - capitalism certainly doesn't show any signs of its death-throes any time soon!

[bowes]

all of this is true
none of it supports the idea that any religions are anything else than ways of explopiting, controlling and abusing people
I despise all religions

Yeah I think in most cases people see in Islam a religion with a grip on society of the form we've had to fight hundreds of years to remove and don't want to return to it. Unfortunately another concern is the fact that some people want to turn this very legitimate concern of people into an illegitimate hatred of all Muslims as opposed to people being against the religion but seeing the people (in the most part) as victims of an oppressive ideology

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Yeah I think in most cases people see in Islam a religion with a grip on society of the form we've had to fight hundreds of years to remove and don't want to return to it. Unfortunately another concern is the fact that some people want to turn this very legitimate concern of people into an illegitimate hatred of all Muslims as opposed to people being against the religion but seeing the people (in the most part) as victims of an oppressive ideology

well said

[Northern Sol]

Yeah I think in most cases people see in Islam a religion with a grip on society of the form we've had to fight hundreds of years to remove and don't want to return to it. Unfortunately another concern is the fact that some people want to turn this very legitimate concern of people into an illegitimate hatred of all Muslims as opposed to people being against the religion but seeing the people (in the most part) as victims of an oppressive ideology

That I would agree with.

I hate Islam but I don't hate Muslims. They are victims of the culture that they were born into.

[Millman]

That I would agree with.

I hate Islam but I don't hate Muslims. They are victims of the culture that they were born into.

What about those that convert to Islam?

[Northern Sol]

What about those that convert to Islam?

I have a couple of friends that did. They are nice people. I don't have to agree with everything they do in order to believe them to be nice people. If they are willing to overlook the fact that I'm a fairly militant atheist then I can overlook their religious views (they are moderate anyway).

[Chairman M]

In Rochdale?

It's hard being a cowboy.