227 replies to this topic

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Ah yes, the infamous "have you stopped beating your wife" question.
Oh dear, you and Millman might be in for a falling out. How lazy of you to think it's acceptible to group these men's behaviour in with all "muslim culture". Which muslim culture were you referring to, I wonder?

Now, try addressing the issue I made. Not the one you think you can defeat with these games.

if these people were behaving in the way they were behaving because they are asian muslims
and that there is a mindset of superiority prevalent. Then it's reasonable to ask whether, that kind of behaviour is acceptable by the people who have this mindset, and whos behaviour was defined by their race and religion.

[Haloman]

Fair comment; it’s a nightmare I’m sure. I hope you're sorted now.

As we’re getting on so well; did you consider that I’d called you and most of the rest of the UK population NF sympathisers with my earlier post that inflamed the ever so excitable and emotional bowes?

No idea, I skipped most of those posts.

[Bob8]

Right, stop this.

It's silly.

[bigred]

So musslims approve of these crimes?

Whilst it would be crass to say 'they' approve of these crimes, it's often the case that the parents of these criminals and the wider muslim community in general are often very reluctant to face up to what has been done by their sons, brothers, cousins etc.
It's often the case also, that some of the men have actually daughters of their own who are the same age or older than the girls they have raped! They seldom show remorse and see it as a victimless crime because the girls usually get in the cars or go to the parties willingly!

[bigred]

Some of the comments on here are so far off topic it's unreal!!
Whatever people may think of these issues, whatever peoples political views, I and my colleagues have to deal with the reality of these abusers and their victims on a very regular basis.
Furthermore, we have just found out it will have to be done with a very greatly reduced budget in the coming year - something to think about for all those of us who have young daughters maybe?

[Haloman]

if these people were behaving in the way they were behaving because they are asian muslims
and that there is a mindset of superiority prevalent. Then it's reasonable to ask whether, that kind of behaviour is acceptable by the people who have this mindset, and whos behaviour was defined by their race and religion.

NO NO NO. Nowhere did I say they were doing it because they were Asian Muslims? I explicitly referred to those within the muslim faith of a particular mindset.

It depends what you mean by mindset. I mean those who consider themselves superior to other religions, as indeed is preached by the many Wahabbi influenced schools of thought. This uncompromising and malign influence is being expanded and funded from Saudi Arabia. To lump indonesian males or Suffi moslems within India in with this mindset would be daft.

Yet, once the mindset has been taught, as it is, it seems daft to suppose that it's thought processes cannot be used to justify this sort of behaviour. It justifies much worse attrocities. My point is that it is daft to pretend it doesn't exist. IT DOES.

[Northern Sol]

Though not the original Russian incarnation, Poale Zion existed as an affiliate member of the Labour Party for many decades until 2004 when it changed it's name to the Jewish Labour Movement. The opening para on it's website 'About Us - Who We Are' rather contradicts your understanding of zionism and the one that I have developed over many years talking to Jewish comrades - zionist, non-zionist and virulently ant-zionist - within the labour movement and related organisations including the UAF.

The fact that the Jewish Labour Movement have a very idiosyncratic understanding of the term "Zionist" doesn't mean that this is something that is generally shared. You can find lots of quotes by people who don't like Gable calling him a Zionist but I've yet to see one where he describes himself as such.

The issue that many on the left have with the UAF is that it is to a great extent a front organisation for the SWP - although I am in no way a Trot, I defend the UAF on the basis that at least the SWP get off their backsides and do something about fascists who continue to be active and gain strength and succour by the inactivity of many on the left who are content to pass resolutions at branch meetings and little else.

Oh, they are very active at doing "something" about white fascists. However, not only do they do nothing about brown or black fascists, they actually march alongside them.

Edited by Northern Sol, 01 December 2010 - 12:33 PM.

[Bedford Roughyed]

NO NO NO. Nowhere did I say they were doing it because they were Asian Muslims? I explicitly referred to those within the muslim faith of a particular mindset.

It depends what you mean by mindset. I mean those who consider themselves superior to other religions, as indeed is preached by the many Wahabbi influenced schools of thought. This uncompromising and malign influence is being expanded and funded from Saudi Arabia. To lump indonesian males or Suffi moslems within India in with this mindset would be daft.

Yet, once the mindset has been taught, as it is, it seems daft to suppose that it's thought processes cannot be used to justify this sort of behaviour. It justifies much worse attrocities. My point is that it is daft to pretend it doesn't exist. IT DOES.

But where does it say that these men where of that mindset? Where does it say they followed wahabbi teachings/interpretations?

You have made a big jump from these men being muslims to another problem with the wahabbi sect. No where have the 2 been linked?

[Haloman]

But where does it say that these men where of that mindset? Where does it say they followed wahabbi teachings/interpretations?

You have made a big jump from these men being muslims to another problem with the wahabbi sect. No where have the 2 been linked?

Where is your evidence that they're not?

However, not everything is black and white in this world. Some choose to pick which bits of any religion suit them, which isn't unusual. They do not have to be Jihadist bomb vest wearing nutters to think their faith is superior and others are therefore fair game for their exploitation which was my original point. To refuse to believe religion can be in any way involved is obtuse in the extreme.

Edited by Haloman, 01 December 2010 - 12:49 PM.

[Millman]

Where is your evidence that they're not?

The standard of this debate has now reached an all time low.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

The standard of this debate has now reached an all time low.

it started bumping along the bottom with the unemployment stuff.

[Haloman]

The standard of this debate has now reached an all time low.

Evidence is a one way street to some.

[Haloman]

it started bumping along the bottom with the unemployment stuff.

No, you'd already dragged it down to my level.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

No, you'd already dragged it down to my level.

how? I've tried to stick to the gist of the discussion
you made some snide gratuitous irrelevant comment about Millman being unemployed...and it wasn't even the right person.
Maybe I'm mistaken and the comment was relevant and valid. If so how?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Evidence is a one way street to some.

well, when you make an assertion it is normally good form to back it up. Any chance of you doing so?

[bowes]

No I did not. You rather perversely chose to interpret my words as such in order that you could pump out some more of your bile; I’m not sure what your motives were but I can deal with your childish anger. I suggest counselling. It can be very good you know.

What a nasty person. I actually think this abusive language needs to stop, I don't mind heated debate but this has crossed the line.

'You remind me of a poster from way back. He used to mention the NF too (which I note you have done in other posts).'

What part of that is you not comparing me to a formerly racist poster on here, whose identity is too obvious to need naming (I can if you still won't admit the clear meaning of your words)? Yet you have been abusive at me for daring to interpret the very clear meaning of your words

Thank you for telling me what my main disagreement with you is; you are as usual wildly inaccurate in your interpretation. For the record I don't “agree with” ANY religion, but I see no reason to victimise one over any other as you appear to. They are very interesting stats; totally irrelevant and probably made up. My main disagreement with you is on the branch of politics is at odds with my own. I think we could be friends though, once you learn some of the more basic life skills.

I have political disagreements with L'Angelo Mysterioso as well to give one example, but got nothing against him as unlike you he seems a pleasant enough person.

I do not rush to the defence of any religion. I suggest you attempt to comprehend what's actually written by people before going on the offensive. What I am happy to point out is inconsistency in argument, and the vilification of people because they are born into families and cultures that practice one daft religion over another; oh and yes they normally don’t have white skin but I’m sure that this is just a coincidence.

Followers of Islam have white skin, brown skin, yellow skin, black skin; as do Christians and even would you believe it Jews. Race is a red herring there. Plus it is the ideology I am against, the people are individuals, some of which including those mentioned in the topic of the thread are nasty, some are pleasant people in spite of their religion, or perhaps because they follow a more liberal form of it.

Your argument is very comical though as I can't seriously believe you're saying I can only criticise Islam if I equally criticise every religion as if they were exactly equal bad in everything I have no reason to have anything strongly against Quakerism or Sikhism for example, yet apparently if you disagree with one religion you have to equally disagree with them all I'll equally disagree with religions when they're equally wrong, but not for the sake of political correctness.

Okay despite it being away from the topic of the thread I am against:

Aggressive Zionism from some Jews represented in Israeli policy
Extremist Christianity in parts of Africa, India and the USA
Buddhist extremists from Sri Lanka
The extremist Shinto of WW2 Japan

Just for a start. It is not the religion of Islam that is especially evil, but the grip a religion has on a society. In 2010 UK Islam has the strongest grip (albeit only in parts of the country), if you asked me 100 years ago which religion had the most harmful effect on society in the UK, then that would have been Christianity.

[Bob8]

.....if you asked me 100 years ago which religion had the most harmful effect on society in the UK, then that would have been Christianity.

Good grief!

You are almost as old as JohnM and L'Ang!

[Millman]

What a nasty person. I actually think this abusive language needs to stop, I don't mind heated debate but this has crossed the line.

Why do you consider my post nasty? I'd happily withdraw and apologise for the abusive language, that is if you would be so kind as to point it out.

'You remind me of a poster from way back. He used to mention the NF too (which I note you have done in other posts).'

What part of that is you not comparing me to a formerly racist poster on here, whose identity is too obvious to need naming (I can if you still won't admit the clear meaning of your words)? Yet you have been abusive at me for daring to interpret the very clear meaning of your words

Was there a poster on here that was racist then? I hope you put them straight. You mentioned the NF out of the blue then accused me of saying that the majority of the country agreed with them. One of the most bizarre things that I've ever read on here.

I have political disagreements with L'Angelo Mysterioso as well to give one example, but got nothing against him as unlike you he seems a pleasant enough person.

Well that's your personal opinion. Again rather a personal post, I thought you wanted this 'abusive language' to stop. Make your mind up.

Followers of Islam have white skin, brown skin, yellow skin, black skin; as do Christians and even would you believe it Jews. Race is a red herring there. Plus it is the ideology I am against, the people are individuals, some of which including those mentioned in the topic of the thread are nasty, some are pleasant people in spite of their religion, or perhaps because they follow a more liberal form of it.

I'm well aware that the various faiths/superstitions/religions have followers of different skin colour. Surely the point which you claim people can be nice/nasty in any religion has been kind of the point that people that have opposed your view throughout this thread have been making; not to generalise and to make sweeping judgements.

Your argument is very comical though as I can't seriously believe you're saying I can only criticise Islam if I equally criticise every religion as if they were exactly equal bad in everything I have no reason to have anything strongly against Quakerism or Sikhism for example, yet apparently if you disagree with one religion you have to equally disagree with them all I'll equally disagree with religions when they're equally wrong, but not for the sake of political correctness.

Political correctness gone mad tends to be the distress call of the thwarted bigot (as one poster put on here way back when). If the cap fits.

Okay despite it being away from the topic of the thread I am against:

Aggressive Zionism from some Jews represented in Israeli policy
Extremist Christianity in parts of Africa, India and the USA
Buddhist extremists from Sri Lanka
The extremist Shinto of WW2 Japan

Well done. Is that a complete list, or will you be adding more as and when you manage to google more?

Just for a start. It is not the religion of Islam that is especially evil, but the grip a religion has on a society. In 2010 UK Islam has the strongest grip (albeit only in parts of the country), if you asked me 100 years ago which religion had the most harmful effect on society in the UK, then that would have been Christianity.

Christianity has a far bigger impact on society than Islam in my view. Which days/hours are businesses not allowed to trade because of Islamic belief system for instance? How many children are fed Islamic belief as fact at state funded schools in this country? Why are all the shops full of gifts at this time of year?

You've been lurking all day and that's the best you could manage. I'd pack it in if I were you?

[Northern Sol]

Why do you consider my post nasty? I'd happily withdraw and apologise for the abusive language, that is if you would be so kind as to point it out.

Was there a poster on here that was racist then? I hope you put them straight. You mentioned the NF out of the blue then accused me of saying that the majority of the country agreed with them. One of the most bizarre things that I've ever read on here.

I'll do it for him. In the very same post that you feign innocence over having caused any offence, you label bowes a bigot. You are totally out of order.

Political correctness gone mad tends to be the distress call of the thwarted bigot (as one poster put on here way back when). If the cap fits.

[Kenilworth Tiger]

I'll do it for him. In the very same post that you feign innocence over having caused any offence, you label bowes a bigot. You are totally out of order.

Oh that's a shame I was looking forward to Bowes' response.

Oh well, you've done it "for him"

Now, Millman mentioned that Bowes reminded him of a poster from a while back - before Millman joined. I may be wide of the mark but I am sure Millman is Cas Vegas

Edited by Kenilworth Tiger, 01 December 2010 - 08:24 PM.