77 replies to this topic

[Steve May]

Resort? If you'd said intrude, like intrude on a thread primarily reserved for ridiculing Cable, then I'd agree.

Happy now?

[fieldofclothofgold]

Why? Are they both Prime Ministers ? I'm Spartacus....

The only thing rEd Miliband has destroyed is his father's dreams.......

very funny.
when the libdem thing implodes ,Clegg will be found a safe seat with his natural party and Cable will go into the lords.

[WearyRhino]

Having thought about it a lot, I've persuaded myself that PR is a good thing. I'd like to be able to vote for PR in the forthcoming referendum, but I won't have that choice.

So I'll be voting No, presumably so will Nick Clegg given that he considers it a "miserable little reform"

The only thing PR would bring is more coalition. As has been demonstrated by this one, you might as well go into an election ripping up your manifesto as you go along.

Still as you have noted, the Lib Dems have sold that, their raison d'etre for half a century, down the river anyway.

[Trojan]

Resort? If you'd said intrude, like intrude on a thread primarily reserved for ridiculing Cable, then I'd agree.

So OK. then the only thing has will destroy is his hairdressers reputation.

whatever, he is an irrelevancy. Labour is now contolled and bankrolled by Liverpool Militant supporter "Red Len" McCluskey.

Back to the eighties. I seem to remember in those far off halcyon days, anyone who so much as attempted to suggest Labour might be right now and again was outed as a militant by the Daily Mail. I think they even branded Doug Hoyle one in the bye -election when he won Warriington.

[Haloman]

Over the past few months, I've noticed a pattern developing. There seems to be an assumption by Labour leaning supporters, that it is inevitable that the LibDems' vote will collapse, as their supporters switch in large numbers to the Labour Party. Do they think that all Labour have to do it sit back, wait and do virtually nothing until the inevitable collapse of the coallition when they will be returned to power with a vast majority?

I think this belief is misguided. I don't think the voters are that fickle and the student protests are just that, well reported student protests. Personally, I think the Police response tactics to legitimate protesting is of far more importance.

Do Labour supporters think that those who actually voted Lib Dem have short enough memories that they would vote back in the least liberal and most authoritarian government which I can ever remember holding power?

It was the Labour Government which introduced student loans AND tuition top up fees, not the Lib Dems. However, the Lib Dem leadership claim that under the new white paper proposals, the poorest of future graduates will actually pay less than they do now, under the Labour introduced legislation, whilst the better earners pay more. Hence they claim the new policies would be far more progressive (that damned word again) than anything Labour ever introduced. Not that that arguement is seen much in the press.

Personally, I think it is actually more likely that Labour will go through a second leadership contest, having been forced to ditch Ed, than the coallition will collapse. I don't think the Labour membership, nor the PLP are at all happy at what they see as having Ed foisted on them by a disproportionately high turn out for Ed within the union votes. Ed's performance is being critically monitored and the chattering has already begun.

Edited by Haloman, 03 December 2010 - 08:23 AM.

[WearyRhino]

Over the past few months, I've noticed a pattern developing. There seems to be an assumption by Labour leaning supporters, that it is inevitable that the LibDems' vote will collapse, as their supporters switch in large numbers to the Labour Party. Do they think that all Labour have to do it sit back, wait and do virtually nothing until the inevitable collapse of the coallition when they will be returned to power with a vast majority?

I think this belief is misguided. I don't think the voters are that fickle and the student protests are just that, well reported student protests. Personally, I think the Police response tactics to legitimate protesting is of far more importance.

Do Labour supporters think that those who actually voted Lib Dem have short enough memories that they would vote back in the least liberal and most authoritarian government which I can ever remember holding power?

It was the Labour Government which introduced student loans AND tuition top up fees, not the Lib Dems. However, the Lib Dem leadership claim that under the new white paper proposals, the poorest of future graduates will actually pay less than they do now, under the Labour introduced legislation, whilst the better earners pay more. Hence they claim the new policies would be far more progressive (that damned word again) than anything Labour ever introduced. Not that that arguement is seen much in the press.

Personally, I think it is actually more likely that Labour will go through a second leadership contest, having been forced to ditch Ed, than the coallition will collapse. I don't think the Labour membership, nor the PLP are at all happy at what they see as having Ed foisted on them by a disproportionately high turn out for Ed within the union votes. Ed's performance is being critically monitored and the chattering has already begun.

No

No

Wrong

Wrong

[Haloman]

No

No

Wrong

Wrong

Splendid, mercifully succinct, which is always a relief when you are concerned.

[ckn]

Over the past few months, I've noticed a pattern developing. There seems to be an assumption by Labour leaning supporters, that it is inevitable that the LibDems' vote will collapse, as their supporters switch in large numbers to the Labour Party. Do they think that all Labour have to do it sit back, wait and do virtually nothing until the inevitable collapse of the coallition when they will be returned to power with a vast majority?

T'is a good point. If there were a general election today, I wouldn't vote Lib Dem but then neither would I return to Labour and the Tories certainly wouldn't get my vote. In our area the BNP don't put up a candidate, I wouldn't vote for them anyway, neither would I vote UKIP.

I'd probably go and waste my vote on either the greens or spoil my paper. Strange as it may sound, if the SNP had a candidate here I'd be tempted to vote for them! Probably the closest party to my viewpoints on their proven delivered results.

First time in my adult life I genuinely don't know who to vote for.

To think the Lib Dems will hold on to their voters, especially in the university towns, is naive. Almost as naive as expecting all the dissenting Lib Dems to go vote Labour.

[Bedford Roughyed]

The Lib Dems are giving Labour a nice easy target. They can just attack the Lib dems (open goal really) without having to go into much detail on their position.

So far they have said the £9000 is too high but what else have they suggested? What is their actual view on tuition fees now? They seem to be split over fees or a graduate tax.

They commisioned the brown report and have run away from the conclusions shouting about lib dem pledges.

[Bedford Roughyed]

http://labour-uncut....ot-vince-cable/

In light of this, Alan Johnson was surely right in the summer when he wrote that it made no sense to pursue the idea of a graduate tax. Which makes it all the more bizarre and dispiriting that John Denham, in his response to the government’s announcement last Wednesday, stated that a graduate tax is now Labour’s long-term goal.

[Steve May]

T'is a good point. If there were a general election today, I wouldn't vote Lib Dem but then neither would I return to Labour and the Tories certainly wouldn't get my vote. In our area the BNP don't put up a candidate, I wouldn't vote for them anyway, neither would I vote UKIP.

I'd probably go and waste my vote on either the greens or spoil my paper. Strange as it may sound, if the SNP had a candidate here I'd be tempted to vote for them! Probably the closest party to my viewpoints on their proven delivered results.

First time in my adult life I genuinely don't know who to vote for.

To think the Lib Dems will hold on to their voters, especially in the university towns, is naive. Almost as naive as expecting all the dissenting Lib Dems to go vote Labour.

Interesting post. There's plenty up for grabs in the world of politics at the moment. I think most dissenting Lib Dems will go Labour, some Tory and some elsewhere.


Here's two interesting opinion polls. They are YouGov polls of students this year

May 2010 - Con 21% Lab 24% Lib 45%

Nov 2010 - Con 26% Lab 42% Lib 15%


I think you'll struggle to find a collapse as rapid and as dramatic as that Lib Dem poll number this side of the Lancashire batting order.

Needs to be tempered with the fact that students have low turn out and often don't even bother to register. Also worth remembering that the students who will vote in 2015 aren't the same people who are students now.

[scrape_goose]

It was the Labour Government which introduced student loans AND tuition top up fees, not the Lib Dems. However, the Lib Dem leadership claim that under the new white paper proposals, the poorest of future graduates will actually pay less than they do now, under the Labour introduced legislation, whilst the better earners pay more. Hence they claim the new policies would be far more progressive (that damned word again) than anything Labour ever introduced. Not that that arguement is seen much in the press.

Did they, I thought it was the last Conservative government, I certainly had a student loan in 1995.

[Haloman]

Did they, I thought it was the last Conservative government, I certainly had a student loan in 1995.

As I remember it, it was a top up system for grants not a complete replacement, nor to pay for tution fees.

[waistline expansionist]

If only the Greens could get their act together they'd clean up the student vote, the beardie Lib Dem vote, the artsy champagne socialist Labour vote and a lot else besides.

[scrape_goose]

As I remember it, it was a top up system for grants not a complete replacement, nor to pay for tution fees.

Yep apologies my memory is slowing coming back to me, all a bit hazy the early 90's!!

[Griff9of13]

As I remember it, it was a top up system for grants not a complete replacement, nor to pay for tution fees.

Just looked it up and you're correct. Student loan introduced in 1990 as a top up to living costs. Changed to a full loan (to replace grants and cover £1,000 per year tuition fee) in 1998. Tuition fees trebled to £3,000 in 2004.

Hardly give Labour the moral high ground of tuition fees to be honest, first to introduce them and then treble them within 6 years of introduction.

Edited by Griff9of13, 03 December 2010 - 10:31 AM.

[Haloman]

Just looked it up and you're correct. Student loan introduced in 1990 as a top up to living costs. Changed to a full loan (to replace grants and cover £1,000 per year tuition fee) in 1998. Tuition fees trebled to £3,000 in 2004.

Hardly give Labour the moral high ground of tuition fees to be honest, first to introduce them and then treble them within 6 years of introduction.

No, it doesn't really, does it?

Does anyone know what their policy is at the moment? I wasn't able to glean anything from the past week of Today In Parliament podcasts.

[WearyRhino]

Also worth remembering that the students who will vote in 2015 aren't the same people who are students now.

Not sure it'll get that far Steve. General Election Autumn 2011 - after local election collapse of Lib Dems, loss of AV referendum, complete disarray in Lib Dems, effective collapse of coalition, Tory minority Government holds on into summer recess, official collapse of coalition, resignation of Clegg as party leader (joins Tory party along with Alexander), Queen's speech defeated, vote of no confidence lost, General Election called.

The Lib Dems will collapse as a party - some will go left, some will go right, some will try to revive the spirit of the old Liberal party with Simon Hughes as leader.

[Bedford Roughyed]

No, it doesn't really, does it?

Does anyone know what their policy is at the moment? I wasn't able to glean anything from the past week of Today In Parliament podcasts.

The are split over graduation tax or tuition fees. The party seem to be jumping on the graduation tax band wagon as the NUS seems to accept it. See link further up.

[ckn]

Not sure it'll get that far Steve. General Election Autumn 2011 - after local election collapse of Lib Dems, loss of AV referendum, complete disarray in Lib Dems, effective collapse of coalition, Tory minority Government holds on into summer recess, official collapse of coalition, resignation of Clegg as party leader (joins Tory party along with Alexander), Queen's speech defeated, vote of no confidence lost, General Election called.

The Lib Dems will collapse as a party - some will go left, some will go right, some will try to revive the spirit of the old Liberal party with Simon Hughes as leader.

Why would the coalition die if the local elections go badly? Your councillors don't sit in Parliament and as long as the coalition gives a majority government then it'll stay together. The Tories know that a minority government would be dead after the first semi-serious vote loss when Labour would enforce a confidence vote.