77 replies to this topic

[WearyRhino]

Why would the coalition die if the local elections go badly? Your councillors don't sit in Parliament and as long as the coalition gives a majority government then it'll stay together. The Tories know that a minority government would be dead after the first semi-serious vote loss when Labour would enforce a confidence vote.

Craig, this will be a loss of catastrophic proportions - even in the south-west of England leaving the Lib Dems in complete disarray. The knives will be out for those responsible. They will have lost everything they spent the last 50 years building, including electoral reform - albeit a reform that nobody in the Lib Dems ever wanted. Even the Lib Dem parliamentarians will be unable to sustain the pretence then, some are barely able to now.

[ckn]

Craig, this will be a loss of catastrophic proportions - even in the south-west of England leaving the Lib Dems in complete disarray. The knives will be out for those responsible. They will have lost everything they spent the last 50 years building, including electoral reform - albeit a reform that nobody in the Lib Dems ever wanted. Even the Lib Dem parliamentarians will be unable to sustain the pretence then, some are barely able to now.

Still... why would a typically selfish group of MPs (both Tory and Lib Dem) purposely collapse the coalition? If Cameron chooses to collapse it then he'll be going to the public within six months, all with the press headlines ringing about losing the confidence of Parliament. Unless the Tories run out with a massive majority in the opinion polls, Cameron will do almost anything to keep the coalition together and the Lib Dem MPs know it would mean a good likelihood of them losing their jobs if they brought it down.

Although I'm not a Lib Dem member any more, I still get the local party's email communications and there's a huge divide between what goes on in Parliament and what happens elsewhere in the party. The local party is already acknowledging that despite them proving repeatedly their credentials locally it'll be the disrepute coming from the Westminster MPs that causes them to lose out heavily next year. That said, 3 of the 4 Lib Dem MPs in this area have publicly stated that they will both vote against and campaign against the rise in student fees in Parliament.

[Steve May]

Still... why would a typically selfish group of MPs (both Tory and Lib Dem) purposely collapse the coalition? If Cameron chooses to collapse it then he'll be going to the public within six months, all with the press headlines ringing about losing the confidence of Parliament. Unless the Tories run out with a massive majority in the opinion polls, Cameron will do almost anything to keep the coalition together and the Lib Dem MPs know it would mean a good likelihood of them losing their jobs if they brought it down.

My gut feel is that they'll stick it out until the bitter end on the grounds that "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately"

That said, I think the end for this government could come very, very quickly and over something that surprises everyone. If it doesn't last the course then the collapse will take no more than a few weeks once it gets underway.

[Haloman]

Not sure it'll get that far Steve. General Election Autumn 2011 - after local election collapse of Lib Dems, loss of AV referendum, complete disarray in Lib Dems, effective collapse of coalition, Tory minority Government holds on into summer recess, official collapse of coalition, resignation of Clegg as party leader (joins Tory party along with Alexander), Queen's speech defeated, vote of no confidence lost, General Election called.

The Lib Dems will collapse as a party - some will go left, some will go right, some will try to revive the spirit of the old Liberal party with Simon Hughes as leader.

World English Dictionary
wishful thinking

— n
the erroneous belief that one's wishes are in accordance with reality

wishful thinker

— n

[WearyRhino]

World English Dictionary
wishful thinking

— n
the erroneous belief that one's wishes are in accordance with reality

wishful thinker

— n

traitor [ˈtreɪtə]
n
a person who is guilty of treason or treachery, in betraying friends, country, a cause or trust, etc.
[from Old French traitour, from Latin trāditor traditor]

If the cap fits (wear it). (British, American & Australian) also If the hat/shoe fits (wear it). (American)
something that you say to tell someone that if they are guilty of something bad, they should accept criticism

dick·head (dkhd)
n. Vulgar Slang
An inept, foolish, or contemptible person.

[Bedford Roughyed]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-11921231

This came after Shadow Chancellor Alan Johnson said he doubted whether a graduate tax plan was "workable".

Mr Miliband backs a graduate tax as an alternative to higher tuition fees.

[ckn]

Ed Miliband on tuition fees:

No party with a deep and genuine commitment to social mobility could support them.

...

Make no mistake – if this bill is voted through on Thursday the government will deal a cruel blow to the chances of the next generation and betray the hopes of our young people. It will fall to Labour to map the route to a fairer, more equal Britain.

I guess "Labour" didn't exist before he became an MP in 2005 and didn't bring in tuition fees. Maybe that was another party just pretending to be Labour. Hmmm...

[JohnM]

Does anyone on here actually know what the proposal is?

[Steve May]

In light of his experience at the World Cup bid in Zurich last week, can the Prime Minister tell us what his view now is of an organisation that engages in the most convoluted and bizarre voting arrangements, which says one thing and votes exactly the opposite way, and which has a leader who is more interested in power and prestige than accountability?


And after he’s finished with the Lib Dems, can he tell us what he thinks of FIFA?

Great question from Nigel Dodds today at PMQs. Cameron was a bit stuck to answer it.

[JohnM]

I though Mr. Harriet Harman's question was far better, and Cameron's response appropriate to the intellectual level of his questioner.

[nadera78]

It's interesting watching PMQ's these days. Milliband seems to really get under Cameron's skin and he doesn't look like he knows how to deal with it. He's been trying to dismiss him and today he made some comment about Milliband indulging in student politics. The response was excellent, raising the subject of Bullingdon without actually naming it, and Cameron couldn't respond. He then foolishly tried to dismiss him with a wave of his hand, but he just looked like he was lost for a way to counter Milliband.

Labour don't have any policies of course, but then they wouldn't with a new leader and shadow cabinet just in place, and they don't really need to have any either.

[JohnM]

I can't agree with much of that. But then I would say that, wouldn't I? It all depends on which side you are on, of course. I thought Cameron had an easy time with Miliband - easy meat really, given that it was Labour who introduced the current system of fees, that their Student Loan Company was a complete and utter disaster and that they can't be bothered to look at the changes that the Govt has proposed.

[shrek]

It's interesting watching PMQ's these days. Milliband seems to really get under Cameron's skin and he doesn't look like he knows how to deal with it. He's been trying to dismiss him and today he made some comment about Milliband indulging in student politics. The response was excellent, raising the subject of Bullingdon without actually naming it, and Cameron couldn't respond. He then foolishly tried to dismiss him with a wave of his hand, but he just looked like he was lost for a way to counter Milliband.

Labour don't have any policies of course, but then they wouldn't with a new leader and shadow cabinet just in place, and they don't really need to have any either.

Not sure about that, it was only last week the press were reporting serious rumblings about Milliband and last week he had a poor showing.

Thought he struck a blow today with the Bullingdon comment, but then with Corpus Christi College, Oxford and Harvard on his CV he may not be choosing the right line of attack as I am sure theres a more than a few posh lunches in his past that will come to light when the press see's fit!

[fieldofclothofgold]

It's interesting watching PMQ's these days. Milliband seems to really get under Cameron's skin and he doesn't look like he knows how to deal with it. He's been trying to dismiss him and today he made some comment about Milliband indulging in student politics. The response was excellent, raising the subject of Bullingdon without actually naming it, and Cameron couldn't respond. He then foolishly tried to dismiss him with a wave of his hand, but he just looked like he was lost for a way to counter Milliband.

Labour don't have any policies of course, but then they wouldn't with a new leader and shadow cabinet just in place, and they don't really need to have any either.

That Bullingdon thing really does make him look uncomfortable.

[JohnM]

That was in the past though. Miliband's problems are in the here and now.

[Steve May]

Not sure about that, it was only last week the press were reporting serious rumblings about Milliband and last week he had a poor showing.

Thought he struck a blow today with the Bullingdon comment, but then with Corpus Christi College, Oxford and Harvard on his CV he may not be choosing the right line of attack as I am sure theres a more than a few posh lunches in his past that will come to light when the press see's fit!

I can't speak for Harvard, but I do know Oxford and trust me, there's a big difference between getting drunk in a polyester dinner suit and what the Bullingdon boys used to get up to.

[Steve May]

Following the tuition fees nonsense, an opinion poll today puts the Lib Dems on their lowest score in an opinion poll since September 1990. It's 41/41/8 on YouGov.

The combined Labour/Tory share is at it's highest for close on 40 years. No need for PR now. Two party politics here we come...

Oh Gingerjon, please come back...

[shrek]

I can't speak for Harvard, but I do know Oxford and trust me, there's a big difference between getting drunk in a polyester dinner suit and what the Bullingdon boys used to get up to.

I don't doubt it, but lets not pretend he's speaking for the "common man", if you took his name of his CV and flashed it round the streets of any northern town I think they'd come to the conclusion they were reading the CV of a posh, well educated person.

[JohnM]

Some actual details of the proposals: see here

Subject to Parliamentary approval, the new system will come into effect for new entrants to the university system in 2012.. No eligible student will have to pay up front for their tuition. Students will not be expected to contribute until they are earning over £21,000.

Graduate contribution
Any university or college will be able to charge a graduate contribution of up to £6,000.

In exceptional cases, universities will be able to charge higher contributions, up to a limit of £9,000, subject to meeting much tougher conditions on widening participation and fair access.

Any university or college will be able to charge below £6,000.

Universities and colleges wanting to charge above £6,000 a year will have to show how they will spend some of the additional income making progress in widening participation and fair access. The Office for Fair Access will be able to apply sanctions in cases where universities do not deliver on the commitments in their access agreements, up to and including withdrawing the right of the university to charge more than £6,000.

Loans and maintenance grants
The Government will lend any eligible student the money to pay the university or college for tuition costs.

For the first time, part-time students will be entitled to a loan and no longer forced to pay up-front costs, so long as they are studying for at least one third of their time.

A new £150m National Scholarships Programme will be targeted at bright potential students from poor backgrounds. It will guarantee students benefits such as a free first year or foundation year.

Students from families with incomes of up to £25,000 will be entitled to a more generous student maintenance grant of up to £3,250 and those from families with incomes up to £42,000 will be entitled to a partial grant.

Maintenance loans will be available to all irrespective of income.


Graduates will not make a contribution towards tuition costs until they are earning at least £21,000, up from the current £15,000. The repayment will be on 9% of income above £21,000, and all outstanding repayments will be written off after 30 years. This means all graduates will pay less per month than they do under the current system.

In order to make the system financially sustainable, a real rate of interest will be charged on loan repayments, but with a progressive taper:

For graduates earning below £21,000, there will be no real rate of interest applied to their loan.

For graduates earning between £21,000 and around £41,000, a real rate of interest will start to be charged, reaching a maximum of RPI plus 3%.

Above £41,000, graduates will repay at the full rate of RPI plus 3%.

[Griff9of13]

Here is what Nick Clegg has to say on the subject....