75 replies to this topic

[duffymoon]

A Twitter or Facebook presence would be a start, given the absence of the website. I get most of my Swinton news from Duffymoon's status updates on FB!

To give an idea of how important a website is, I remember a few years ago (maybe around 2002) reading an interview in The Guardian. It was with a senior manager from Yahoo - Head of Communications or similar I think. The first question put to him was "What is the first website you visit in the morning?". His answer?

"Swinton Lions RLFC. They're the club I grew up supporting, and I like to stay in touch with how they are doing."

The club, by my reckoning, has a huge untapped fanbase. Not just the stay-at-home fans in M27 and neighbouring districts, but those that have gone on to live and work elsewhere. Two distinct groups of course. How many fans refuse to go to games, for whatever reason (often justified IMO), but tune in to GMR, check Teletext etc. on a Sunday? For many of these the website is vital, and could be the difference between them coming to match or stopping at home.

Likewise for the exiled fans, many of whom, like the person whose name I cannot remember in the Guardian interview, are potentially influential. How many clubs at CC1 level can boats a cross section of fans that includes a recently retired MP, a national broadsheet editor, a senior European trades union official, a 5Live regular etc.

Not many. I'm sure many of these people, along with other exiled Lions, like LionsFanUSA, would appreciate a decent website or social network presence.

Thanks for that John! as you and any of my facebook friends will tell you I always post anything on Swinton Lions on my status.Takes the club to a whole new audience.

[PhillH]

How utterly pathetic an attempt at points scoring is your post Phil?

Point scoring doesn't interest me, merely demonstrating a fundamental flaw in an opposing argument.

The dangerous thing that we see demonstrated in this thread, that would naturally lead to the death of Swinton Lions if it were allowed to run its course unchallenged, is the mistaken belief that to support the brand requires not only an acceptance of blatantly poor standards of professionalism but also a compulsion to make half baked excuses on behalf of those that are running the show - in this case a website at a level that is comfortably exceeded by many amateur clubs. This is the mechanism whereby a good news culture can easily take over and result in the club becoming disconnected with the community at large and losing the ability to sell itself properly.

We now see a second classic forum tactic from yourself, when the argument is lost attack the individual rather than the point being made.

If we get drawn in, en bloc, to this mindset that Swinton Lions does not deserve or cannot attain higher standards of governance and professionalism off the field, the only possible outcome is that other sources of income will continue to wither and the club will become increasingly more and more reliant on John Kidd's personal cash injections, as the club simply won't mean enough to the community at large any more. Thus we will face a self fulfilling prophesy that will take us to the day that he will be gone and the club will be left in a totally unsustainable position. It doesn't need to be that way, but to avoid this scenario people simply must appreciate the perspective of those outside the ever decreasing circle of proactive supporters.

[The Baron Mk11]

Not siding with anyone here, but this may interest you. I am a member of a small amature musical and dramatic society, we have just finished a pantomime (Cinderella) in the run up to Christmas. The dates were every night 20th to the 23rd inclusive. The show was put on at a high school in Whitworth Nr Rochdale. Considering the weather at that time is was remarkable that we filled the hall every night 160 to 180 bodies on average. I commented that we had done realy well considering how close we were to Christmas and the fact that the weather was atrocious (we had to employ snow ploughs to clear the car park and school driveway prior to opening) The Director told me that if it was'nt for the fact that the majority of tickets were sold in advance through Face Book we may well have been playing to an empty auditorium, in fact he told me that that is always the case, the majority of tickets for every show were booked through their Face Book presence.

Now I am going to have to check what our (Hornets) face Book presence is like, maybe there is a golden opportunity for all of us to use this tool to a better and bigger advantage.

Kind regards, and good luck for the season ahead.

The Baron.

[mark richardson]

Point scoring doesn't interest me, merely demonstrating a fundamental flaw in an opposing argument.

The dangerous thing that we see demonstrated in this thread, that would naturally lead to the death of Swinton Lions if it were allowed to run its course unchallenged, is the mistaken belief that to support the brand requires not only an acceptance of blatantly poor standards of professionalism but also a compulsion to make half baked excuses on behalf of those that are running the show - in this case a website at a level that is comfortably exceeded by many amateur clubs. This is the mechanism whereby a good news culture can easily take over and result in the club becoming disconnected with the community at large and losing the ability to sell itself properly.

We now see a second classic forum tactic from yourself, when the argument is lost attack the individual rather than the point being made.

If we get drawn in, en bloc, to this mindset that Swinton Lions does not deserve or cannot attain higher standards of governance and professionalism off the field, the only possible outcome is that other sources of income will continue to wither and the club will become increasingly more and more reliant on John Kidd's personal cash injections, as the club simply won't mean enough to the community at large any more. Thus we will face a self fulfilling prophesy that will take us to the day that he will be gone and the club will be left in a totally unsustainable position. It doesn't need to be that way, but to avoid this scenario people simply must appreciate the perspective of those outside the ever decreasing circle of proactive supporters.

Attacking the individual is your tactic Phil and your arguments constantly get lost because of this nasty side to your posts. You tried to make Marshy look silly as you have with me many many times with your "utter irony".
You were in a goood mood prior to Xmas and your posts were readable and interesting. How about having a go at that again?
As for the interest of lost fans, last year Riggy did a full report every week which was usually on the website by the evening of the game. We have had loads of updates on recruitment on it too this year. Things have ground to a halt recently and it is poor as momentum seems to be getting lost slightly,BUT we had this exact same discussion last year. Im sure it will improve.

[PhillH]

Attacking the individual is your tactic Phil and your arguments constantly get lost because of this nasty side to your posts. You tried to make Marshy look silly as you have with me many many times with your "utter irony".
You were in a goood mood prior to Xmas and your posts were readable and interesting. How about having a go at that again?
As for the interest of lost fans, last year Riggy did a full report every week which was usually on the website by the evening of the game. We have had loads of updates on recruitment on it too this year. Things have ground to a halt recently and it is poor as momentum seems to be getting lost slightly,BUT we had this exact same discussion last year. Im sure it will improve.

First point: I have never resorted to personal type abuse of other posters on this forum and would expect to be rightly banned if it were any different. As the forum rules of use make clear, there's a clear divide between debating matters of Swinton Lions and rugby league in general, i.e. a diversity of views and opinions, versus abuse of the inherent qualities of third parties. I've definately no desire whatsoever to cross that line. Attacking the individual is definately not my tactic.

Other people are at liberty to try and make my views look silly too, if they so wish. That's the nature of debate, without which there's no reason to have any internet forums of this type.

My philosophy is no different now to what it was before Christmas: Tell it as I see it. People's perceptions tend to change, dependent on the subject matter at hand. During the close season there was a run of topics not specific to Swinton Lions. So, scrutinise the inconsistency of the RFL, some aspects of Salford City Council's performance, have a go at Neil Barker's standard of journalism etc and its all fair game - PhillH is a jolly good chap after all. However, apply the same level of scrutiny to the governance of Swinton Lions and the hackles of some contributors go up - suddenly that PhillH is a nasty piece of work. The approach is consistent, I don't have the skills of diplomacy to do it any other way, but its the way the approach is interpreted which is a movable feast (in my opinion!).

[StockportLion]

How to attract new supporters or bring back past supporters........... put nothing on the website about what was discussed or announced at the December meeting, no mention of the move to the Willows, if you are aware then no mention about how to obtain tickets or the costs etc etc....... again more reasons to demonstrate the apparent continuing poor performance of the off-field activities of the club. Please can the club do something to keep the website up to date. I'm sure there are people willing to help but just need the info...... or is it all kept close to the chest & top secret & only divulged to a priveleged few.

[duffymoon]

How to attract new supporters or bring back past supporters........... put nothing on the website about what was discussed or announced at the December meeting, no mention of the move to the Willows, if you are aware then no mention about how to obtain tickets or the costs etc etc....... again more reasons to demonstrate the apparent continuing poor performance of the off-field activities of the club. Please can the club do something to keep the website up to date. I'm sure there are people willing to help but just need the info...... or is it all kept close to the chest & top secret & only divulged to a priveleged few.

I would be willing to set up a proper Facebook page if i was supplied with snippets of info that the club wished to impart.There are lots of us in M27 trying to spread the word but its difficult without any evidence of activity in the community.

[kingspeedbump]

I think you're missing the point. It should not have to fall on individuals outside of the club to maintain and regular flow of information!!! It should be the club, plain and simply.

There is vital information, like the discussions of the December meetings etc that should be on the site, at least by the following day. It's clear that Mr Rigg produces a very good report for every game, but thats where it stops. It should be the responsibility for the club to place the responsibility of an individual within the organsition to produce and maintain a reasonable level of information of the site. For example, is one or two sentences about a new signing good enough? Not to mention that it probably appears on here before the actual official site.

[mark richardson]

The website now appears to have crashed completely so there you go!
We have this same discussion every year about information and rumour.....
I just prefer to look at it from this perspective,we`ve got the best team ,best coach and articles in the Adveriser every week which is all good. There have been two meetings with fans in the last 3 months. 2 more than in the last 4 years. We have a home at the Willows which is closer to Swinton than we`ve been for years,and the possibility of a new ground at Agecroft.
Whether the ground ever happens is another discussion,but the club say they are planning it,so there you go.

This discussion really started out over whether we should sell merchandise on line. To me sales of clothes need to be done in a shop (like we did at Wilkinson two seasons ago) or at a club shop so you can try them on. Being able to view merchandise on line with some ebay style paypal option though shouldnt be hard to set up.

And as for who does it? A combination of volunteers and club is surely the way.

For me a discussion blown out of proportion with the problem.(just my opinion Phil.)

[marshy1]

The website now appears to have crashed completely so there you go!
We have this same discussion every year about information and rumour.....
I just prefer to look at it from this perspective,we`ve got the best team ,best coach and articles in the Adveriser every week which is all good. There have been two meetings with fans in the last 3 months. 2 more than in the last 4 years. We have a home at the Willows which is closer to Swinton than we`ve been for years,and the possibility of a new ground at Agecroft.
Whether the ground ever happens is another discussion,but the club say they are planning it,so there you go.

This discussion really started out over whether we should sell merchandise on line. To me sales of clothes need to be done in a shop (like we did at Wilkinson two seasons ago) or at a club shop so you can try them on. Being able to view merchandise on line with some ebay style paypal option though shouldnt be hard to set up.

And as for who does it? A combination of volunteers and club is surely the way.

For me a discussion blown out of proportion with the problem.(just my opinion Phil.)

Here here Mark.

[who cares?]

The website now appears to have crashed completely so there you go!
We have this same discussion every year about information and rumour.....
I just prefer to look at it from this perspective,we`ve got the best team ,best coach and articles in the Adveriser every week which is all good. There have been two meetings with fans in the last 3 months. 2 more than in the last 4 years. We have a home at the Willows which is closer to Swinton than we`ve been for years,and the possibility of a new ground at Agecroft.
Whether the ground ever happens is another discussion,but the club say they are planning it,so there you go.

This discussion really started out over whether we should sell merchandise on line. To me sales of clothes need to be done in a shop (like we did at Wilkinson two seasons ago) or at a club shop so you can try them on. Being able to view merchandise on line with some ebay style paypal option though shouldnt be hard to set up.

And as for who does it? A combination of volunteers and club is surely the way.

For me a discussion blown out of proportion with the problem.(just my opinion Phil.)

what about those of us who dont live in the distribution area of the advertiser then? where should we get our info from? surely first port of call for any info on the club should be its official website?

[kingspeedbump]

It's just a little bit sad that some people don't want to hear any negative comments about the club. However, there are issues that need be sorted. Communication is vital, yet the club neglect their responsibility to keep the fans updated on a whole host of things and the information they do pass on they keep their cards close to their chest.

They are a victim of their own failings, where rumours will always be an issue unless the situation changes!

[mark richardson]

Firstly if you can post on this forum youve got the internet. The advertiser is on there.
Its not about negative and positive,its about every single thread or discussion being dragged away from its point onto it being the whole issue of the club and its future and how it is run.
You can quite clearly read that i say it is poor that our website is weak. You can quite clearly read that I think we should sort out our merchandising. Im no supporter of John Kidd,Ive never met him.
What I have got is memory for this same discussion for several seasons on this forum. I for one havent been left guessing who we have signed or where we are playing. In fact the club arranged two well publicised meetings to tell us about them. I couldnt make either and live down the road.

I work in an environment where second guessing your staff,20-20 hindsight vision,and scrutiny throughout ruin any sort of morale. Its perhaps this continual knocking that I experience thats gets you down.


Finally in all my years of watching the club we have always always relied on volunteers and officials working hand in hand with programmes,coach travel,match videos,match reports. Surely that can happen again with a bit of cooperation and organiation.

[who cares?]

yes if you come on here you have the internet and can read the advertiser site, but thats not the point. the point is you should not be relying on the local paper for info. you should be looking at the swinton lions website

so what if its been done to death on here before? the same problems STILL happen with communication, and they never seem to be addressed properly, yes it may have been dragged away from its original topic, but thats part and parcel of discussion and debate, other things get brought in alongside original topics...

take a look at the FC united website and the information they get out to fans, they are at a lower level of thier sport yet have a communictation to the fans structure millions of times better than anything swinton has.

a good website with information that is up to date on there is an essential tool in this modern age for communicating with fans, not just of the club but of other clubs as well.

[PhillH]

Fans should not have to rely on the media for accurate and up to date valid information about the club nowadays.

In recent years the club has reacted angrily several times when news has appeared in the press and/or being discussed on this forum before the formalities of a deal had been properly completed/announced.

duffymoon posted recently that he was challenged by a club official at one of the public meetings about how he "knew" Mark Smith had signed beforehand. The accusation being that the post had undermined the club's attempt to stage manage news of the signing, when all duffymoon had done was take a guess in answer to a speculative question put on here by another poster.

On another occasion John Kidd was quite angry when news that Jay Duffy had signed on loan appeared in the press and then on this forum, before the deal had been formally agreed. I guess there was a chance that news of the player being available could have alerted other clubs.

We can go back to Ray French revealing in League Weekly that negotiations were at an advanced stage between Swinton Lions and Sedgeley Park RUFC for ground sharing at Park Lane before it was made public knowledge. Ray picked that up at a rugby union function from the Sedgley end of things if I remember rightly.

There are numerous other examples.

The answer from the club on these matters has been - "If its not on the website its not official"!

If the club were to then say that supporters should rely on local media for accurate and up-to-date information it would be totally hypocritical.

The job of the media is not to give the gospel according to Swinton Lions. The media are at liberty to speculate, to sensationalise, to try and break stories that might make the club uncomfortable, to represent the interests of other parties such as players, player agents or other clubs. Sometimes the members of the media who produce the material are not that well informed on the full circumstances of Swinton Lions (Neil Barker or Jack Dearden anyone!?!).

The quality and depth of coverage given by any particular media outlet will vary according to a wide range of factors, such as other priorities for space and the interest / competence / enthusiasm of personnel employed at any given point in time. At the moment coverage in the Advertiser is pretty solid (albeit a bit hidden away on the inside pages), but this has not always been the case in the past and is not certain to carry on into the future. The club cannot control the Advertiser or proof read it prior to publication.

However the website gives the club a golden opportunity to get its message across unfettered.

Its not just about a duty to pre-existing fans, but recognising that if the club wants to have a broader appeal it needs to be run for the many and sold to the many, not run for a privileged few where access to valid information is seen as some sort of petty payoff for being in this mystical "inner circle" of chosen ones whose mindset is always to defend the club no matter how obvious its failings.

[Davecord]

Apparently work is underway on a new website . Although the current website appears to have gone if you click on the home link and then 'Swinton Lions 2010' you get back to the remains of the old site . It says news will appear here until new website is launched although last news update is prior to Xmas .

[mark richardson]

yes if you come on here you have the internet and can read the advertiser site, but thats not the point. the point is you should not be relying on the local paper for info. you should be looking at the swinton lions website

so what if its been done to death on here before? the same problems STILL happen with communication, and they never seem to be addressed properly, yes it may have been dragged away from its original topic, but thats part and parcel of discussion and debate, other things get brought in alongside original topics...

take a look at the FC united website and the information they get out to fans, they are at a lower level of thier sport yet have a communictation to the fans structure millions of times better than anything swinton has.

a good website with information that is up to date on there is an essential tool in this modern age for communicating with fans, not just of the club but of other clubs as well.

I am not disagreeeing with you! However I do think a local paper really is a very important means of spreading information and for once this close season the club has done this very well.
My point is that every single negative or critical thread becomes a whole hearted attack on the club. That isnt necessary or healthy in my opinion because the point gets lost.
Anyway Im off to play with my dogs and be happy. The same reason I go to the match every week.
In fact this discussion has reminded of the big miserable bloke in the stand who used to shout "run bloody forward Wayne" every five minutes. Unbelievable.

[kingspeedbump]

Ok then, let me ask just one question. Who's fault is it that the website's content is so poor?

The way I see it the only two meaningful inclusions are from people outside of the club, being Mr Rigg and Mr Spellman.

[Blue Monkey]

Apparently work is underway on a new website . Although the current website appears to have gone if you click on the home link and then 'Swinton Lions 2010' you get back to the remains of the old site . It says news will appear here until new website is launched although last news update is prior to Xmas .

Judging from the club's track record on getting this kind of thing up-and-running, we'll be very lucky if it's ready in time for the big kick off. Anybody else thinking along these lines?

[who cares?]

Judging from the club's track record on getting this kind of thing up-and-running, we'll be very lucky if it's ready in time for the big kick off. Anybody else thinking along these lines?

which season?