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#1 tim2

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 05:15 PM

Is Jacques Kallis the most underrated cricketer to have ever played. It's always Botham, Kapil, Imran etc. who get mentioned as all rounders but here we have a batsman who is up there with the likes of Ponting and Lara and just behind the greatest of them all in the modern era - Tendular. Yet he is also a top test bowler and has allowed South Africa to just play 4 frontline bowlers for the last 15 years. Is it because he just gets on with his job - he's not flashy and not outspoken. Or is it because he is South African? I don't understand it.

He has, in the last 3 days, produced two of the finest innings you could wish to see against the best team in the world. He has scored nearly 12000 test runs at an average of 56. He has taken 270 wickets at 32.

He has scored 11000 runs in ODIs at a strike rate of 72, with 269 wickets at an economy rate of 4.8.

38 (edit: that's 40 now) test centuries and 17 in ODIs.

Answers on a postcard.

Edited by tim2, 05 January 2011 - 05:17 PM.

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#2 Futtocks

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 05:18 PM

If he's such a good South African cricketer, why isn't he playing for England? wink.gif
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#3 marklaspalmas

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 06:05 PM

I think Tim is absolutely right. I had a conversation relatively recently about this, and of course I threw up the usual names, Dev, Khan, Botham, even Hadlee, Proctor, Waugh. Then I checked out Kallis.

His stats suggest that perhaps only Sobers was a better test all-rounder.

Not the greatest run-maker to watch, but as a bat in his own right really not that far behind Tendulkar or Lara who would be among the best ever. Add to that nearly 300 wickets. Jeez, that's some career.

Edited by marklaspalmas, 05 January 2011 - 06:06 PM.


#4 bendyas

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:19 PM

'im and Sobers are the greatest all rounders ever to play. Good slip fielder, too.



#5 Andrew Vause

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 09:20 PM

Kallis is a great criketer and I don't think is underrated as such.

I was the greatest ever Botham fan (or so I thought) when I was a kid, I lived and breathed him, and modelled myself on him as a club cricketer, so much so that there were times that I thought could there be Cricket after Botham. In subsequent years I have reflected on his career more objectively. I'm not a stats man and rely on a lot of stuff from memory and appreciate memory can sometimes omit fine detail.

What I remember about Ian Terrence though is at odds, somewhat to what I thought of him when I was younger.

He was a good all rounder averaged about 33 batting mostly at six and got about 380 odd wickets.

However, Ian's early career was a lot better than his final mostly unproductive years as a cricketer.

Plus points

He got a hundred test wickets and a hundred test wickets in only 2 years of test cricket. One thing stats don't tell you though is that the majority of Ian's formative test career was against 3rd rate Australian (1977 and 78/79) New Zealand (77/78 and 78) and Pakistani (77/78 and 78) test teams that had been ravaged by Kerry Packer's cricket circus.

Still not a mean feat but Australia were missing Dennis Lillee, Rod Marsh, Garry Gilmour and Ian Chappell. Pakistan were missing Majid Khan, Mushtaq Mohammed, Asif Iqbal and Imran Khan. New Zealand, Glenn Turner.

To be fair he did phenomenally well against this early opposition including a weak India (with a very young Kapil Dev) in 79.

Brearley relinquished the captaincy after the India series and Ian got the capatancy at the Age of 24.

Lost only 1-0 at home to Windies in 1980, respectable, but honestly could and should have been 4-0 but for some freak luck.

Got away with a 1-0 defeat in the carribean in 80/81. One test washed out, one test saved by Gower and 2 tests severely disrupted by the inclusion of Robin Jackman in the English team causing West Indian Boycotts.


Then the famous 81 series. Hammered in the first test, second test saved by Gower, then the legend of Botham born. A phenomenal 149 no at Headingley that gave England a crack at the Aussies for a second time in the match.

An unbelievable victory, that wouldn't have been achieved but for Willis' 8 for 40 odd.

Edgbaston next ; thanks to his spell of 5 for 1 in twenty odd balls. This five for included Martin Kent, Dennis Lillee, Tery Alderman, Ray Bright andprobably Rod Marsh or some other rubbish that I can't remember. Hardly bowling out the West Indies first 5 of the 1980s.



Old Trafford brilliant 118 , with great attacking batting, Tavare at the other end had scored 9 to Botham's hundred.

25 years old at this point. His last test was in 1992 at the age of 36. Since 81 he'd scored a couple of hundreds against a ###### New Zealand, A double and a hundred against a woefull india and a great 138 ish at the gabba against an average Australia in 86/87.

His bowling had declined , although briefly in 1986 he became the leading test wicket taker of all time.

He was a good catcher and took over 100 in tests, however, it could be argued that he never achieved against the best side, the West Indies, he never got a test hundred against them ( He did however get a club 100 aginst them for Worcs) He took 8 wickets in an innings once against them but did very little else against them.

In the last 5 years of his test career he only took about 10 wickets and scored just 1 fifty.

He was good but did play against some ordinary opposition.

Hadlee, Khan and Dev were stronger towards the end of their respective careers.

The three of them better bowlers than Batsmen. Botham in my opinion outshone them with the bat and with the ball in his early career, when he could swing it both ways.

Kallis is a great batsmen better than any of the all rounders mentioned and was a very good bowler, not as effective with the ball now and in my opinion even at his best not as good with the ball as the other all rounders mentioned.

Mark mentioned Mike Proctor. Proctor was a fine allrounder with Gloucestershire, but because of the Gleneagle's agreement his test career was curtailed after only two or three tests, therefore it would be impossible to comment on his standing as an international all rounder. South Africa had all rounders that were potentially as good but were never allowed too much test cricket, in Eddie Barlow and Clive Rice.


Wake upeveryone, I'm done.

Ps Sobers in addition to opening the bowling could bowl leg spin off spin or medium pace swing.

Edited by Andrew Vause, 05 January 2011 - 09:23 PM.


#6 Millman

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 11:51 PM

QUOTE (bendyas @ Jan 5 2011, 08:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
'im and Sobers are the greatest all rounders ever to play. Good slip fielder, too.


Lazy. Should be in the deep running after the ball not tossing it off chatting to his mates.




#7 marklaspalmas

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:43 AM

Huge post on Iron Bottom, Andrew!

My view on ITB

1. Possibly England's greatest ever bowler. Always got wickets. At times the only idea we had with the ball was 'give it to Botham'.

2. Unbelievably good slip fielder. One of the best ever.

3. Pretty damn average test batsman. Just about good enough for him to qualify as 'all-rounder' but often failed to justify batting even at 6 and was never top 5 material. Muck or nettles.

#8 marklaspalmas

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:45 AM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Jan 6 2011, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Huge post on Iron Bottom, Andrew!

My view on ITB

1. Possibly England's greatest ever bowler. Always got wickets. At times the only idea we had with the ball was 'give it to Botham'.

2. Unbelievably good slip fielder. One of the best ever.

3. Pretty damn average test batsman. Just about good enough for him to qualify as 'all-rounder' but often failed to justify batting even at 6 and was never top 5 material. Muck or nettles.


Oh aye

4. One of the worst captains England will ever have. Utterly utterly unsuited to the job. See Flintoff, Pietersen, etc.

#9 Steve May

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 11:49 AM

QUOTE (bendyas @ Jan 5 2011, 08:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
'im and Sobers are the greatest all rounders ever to play. Good slip fielder, too.



The all rounders mentioned in this thread have all been from the modern era. Dev, Kallis, Botham and so on. No one from before Sobers really.

I think it's important to remember that cricket is a very old game and it had been played for a long time before the likes of Botham and Sobers even turned up.

No mention of all rounders could be complete with out a nod at least to the likes of Wilf Rhodes or even WG Grace.
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#10 Steve May

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 11:57 AM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Jan 6 2011, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Huge post on Iron Bottom, Andrew!

My view on ITB

1. Possibly England's greatest ever bowler. Always got wickets. At times the only idea we had with the ball was 'give it to Botham'.


Possibly the greatest ever bowler, but in all honesty probably not.

A very good bowler certainly, but as in my post above, cricket has been around a long, long time.

Barnes perhaps?

It's also worth noting when looking back at early cricket history that some first class games would have been far tougher than Test games. I suspect that especially early on, when only England, Australia and South Africa played Tests, facing Yorkshire was a tougher proposition than most Test matches would have been. You therefore have to look at players first class records as well.
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#11 marklaspalmas

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:03 PM

QUOTE (Steve May @ Jan 6 2011, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Possibly the greatest ever bowler, but in all honesty probably not.

A very good bowler certainly, but as in my post above, cricket has been around a long, long time.

Barnes perhaps?

It's also worth noting when looking back at early cricket history that some first class games would have been far tougher than Test games. I suspect that especially early on, when only England, Australia and South Africa played Tests, facing Yorkshire was a tougher proposition than most Test matches would have been. You therefore have to look at players first class records as well.


For sure Steve. We ought to consider over 150 years of history, but we don't.

As far as anything before the 60s goes, we have very little to go on except some (often amazing) stats. It's hard enough comparing 1970s cricketers to modern cricketers without going back to Victorian times. The massive number of overs bowled on uncovered wickets slews that stats for batsmen & bowlers alike.

Yes, county cricket was fiercely competitive. Yes, Yorkshire could've hammered various test playing nations. There was an awful lot of dross too. Runs scored & wickets taken v the likes of the Windies, India, Pakistan in their early days as test nations were seen as 'easy'.




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