44 replies to this topic

[Bryce]

If I blatantly mis-understood then you obviously feel that having a council member "castigated" would be a good idea? And where you have introduced "hidden agendas" is yet another one of those mysteries in which I have no interest.

In your last post you seem to have just re-iterated what I said in my original post. Please do forgive me if i'm wrong, it does happen from time to time. But surely the Lions have put forward a good case in how the new stadium will be benficial to the community and John Kidd said that we had already put this forward to the council. I fail to see how anything negative can be taken from that, other than the fact that we obviously can't fund the project ourselves, especially with the current fan base. This is why we should be encouraging new people to come along and help the cause by attending on match days, which makes the attendance of 916 on Friday very promising considering the poor turn-outs we got at Sedgley. More of the same needed IMO.

[who cares?]

The reason your posts bring such strong responses Phil is firstly you insult those of us who attend- "the blindingly loyal" as though we are stupid,and

and what about those who slag others off who areunable to be going to the games (irrespective of any reasons) saying you have no right what so ever to a voice?

[PhillH]

If I blatantly mis-understood then you obviously feel that having a council member "castigated" would be a good idea? And where you have introduced "hidden agendas" is yet another one of those mysteries in which I have no interest.

In your last post you seem to have just re-iterated what I said in my original post. Please do forgive me if i'm wrong, it does happen from time to time. But surely the Lions have put forward a good case in how the new stadium will be benficial to the community and John Kidd said that we had already put this forward to the council. I fail to see how anything negative can be taken from that, other than the fact that we obviously can't fund the project ourselves, especially with the current fan base. This is why we should be encouraging new people to come along and help the cause by attending on match days, which makes the attendance of 916 on Friday very promising considering the poor turn-outs we got at Sedgley. More of the same needed IMO.

Wrong again! I am not advercating that any Council Member should be castigated. What I am advercating is that all relevant Council Members should be lobbied in favour of the development of Agecroft for a combination of Swinton Lions matches and community uses. That lobby needs to be as strong as possible in order to maximise the chances of success. At the moment I don't see any firm evidence of that happening and Mr Merry's statement shows that if negotiations are ongoing, the message has clearly not got through to the top of the Council.

The question I asked is: Why should I be castigated on here, having expressed concern at the nature of Mr Merry's apparent current stance. Surely Mr Merry ought to be showing a greater level of commitment and involvement of the Council with the Lions at this time - more than "being willing to talk" - as we are merely 11 months away from a new ground being needed. Other people have then portrayed this as slagging off Swinton Lions, when the comment was directed purely and simply at the stance of the Council Leader.

Fact is that we have no real evidence to go off, in order to judge whether the club really has in fact put together a good case as to how development at Agecroft would benefit the community. You evidently take that on faith and see your contribution as attending games and giving your support to the team on a match day. I would prefer to see some firmer evidence and be given an opportunity to contribute to the needed lobbying of Councillors and others through normal democratic processes. If a strong case has in fact been made, the club ought to be proud of what it has done and should have no problem sharing the evidence and publicising its ambitions as much as possible.

Where we definately agree is that the gate on Friday was pretty encouraging, albeit against a side with relatively high away support and probably boosted by a novelty factor and no other games going on locally, particularly Super League not having started. Great from my perspective to have extensive commentary on Radio Manchester, to which I was glued, for what was a good performance and therefore good free publicity. On a note of caution when Leigh visited Park Lane in the Northern Rail Cup the gates were similarly around the 1,000 mark. A winning team will no doubt help a good deal, but the real test will come in the bread-and-butter league matches to come. Admission for £5 to Salford season ticket holders is a good deal for them. I do earnestly believe that some added certainty about what is going to happen next season and a higher profile campaign for Agecroft to be developed could only benefit the gates as it will persuade people to take the club more seriously.

As a slight aside, I always find it a paradox when existing fans say they want more people to join them at matches, but on the other hand are not interested in the views of those who currently don't go. If you are not interested in understanding why people currently don't go, how can you know what to do in order to persuade them to change their behaviours?

[mark richardson]

and what about those who slag others off who areunable to be going to the games (irrespective of any reasons) saying you have no right what so ever to a voice?

Are you saying thats what I do? I think it does lessen the impact your opinion has if all you do is sit at home and criticise when you dont actually attend and havent done for many a long year. And then if such a person does raise a point its mistimed,its oft a rehash of something we`ve read a million times before and it is insulting those of us who do go. I mean even Riggys request to bring memorabilia into the Town Hall had an attempted hijack.

Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion but why voice it after one of our best perfoRmances and home crowds for ages?
And Im sure I posted that about 2 posts ago?

[who cares?]

Are you saying thats what I do? I think it does lessen the impact your opinion has if all you do is sit at home and criticise when you dont actually attend and havent done for many a long year. And then if such a person does raise a point its mistimed,its oft a rehash of something we`ve read a million times before and it is insulting those of us who do go. I mean even Riggys request to bring memorabilia into the Town Hall had an attempted hijack.

Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion but why voice it after one of our best perfoRmances and home crowds for ages?
And Im sure I posted that about 2 posts ago?

im not saying you in particular but there is a group of a few on here that do bang on about you cant speak if you dont go to the games.....

[marshy1]

im not saying you in particular but there is a group of a few on here that do bang on about you cant speak if you dont go to the games.....

I don't think anyone has ever said that if you don't go to a game you can't have a say.

It is accepted there are many reasons why people can't attend.

What does get on your nerves is listening to a constant tirade against the management or as some would say the lack of management of the club.

As I have stated many times had it not been for Mr Kidd a few years ago we wouldn't have been having this discussion at all.

So can we now return to promoting the very exciting new team and coaching set up we currently have and lets hope that with promotion we also get the much valued news that a stadium is on the way.

Incidentally I always have a couple of spaces available in my car if anyone is stuggling getting to the Willows and needs a lift,I'd happily take two more paying fans.

[dummy scissors]

I don't think anyone has ever said that if you don't go to a game you can't have a say.

It is accepted there are many reasons why people can't attend.

What does get on your nerves is listening to a constant tirade against the management or as some would say the lack of management of the club.

As I have stated many times had it not been for Mr Kidd a few years ago we wouldn't have been having this discussion at all.

So can we now return to promoting the very exciting new team and coaching set up we currently have and lets hope that with promotion we also get the much valued news that a stadium is on the way.

Incidentally I always have a couple of spaces available in my car if anyone is stuggling getting to the Willows and needs a lift,I'd happily take two more paying fans.

That would be great Marshy a pick up in Sheffield, after work please for Friday night fixtures!

Edited by dummy scissors, 07 February 2011 - 08:48 PM.

[Bryce]

Wrong again! I am not advercating that any Council Member should be castigated. What I am advercating is that all relevant Council Members should be lobbied in favour of the development of Agecroft for a combination of Swinton Lions matches and community uses. That lobby needs to be as strong as possible in order to maximise the chances of success. At the moment I don't see any firm evidence of that happening and Mr Merry's statement shows that if negotiations are ongoing, the message has clearly not got through to the top of the Council.

The question I asked is: Why should I be castigated on here, having expressed concern at the nature of Mr Merry's apparent current stance. Surely Mr Merry ought to be showing a greater level of commitment and involvement of the Council with the Lions at this time - more than "being willing to talk" - as we are merely 11 months away from a new ground being needed. Other people have then portrayed this as slagging off Swinton Lions, when the comment was directed purely and simply at the stance of the Council Leader.

Fact is that we have no real evidence to go off, in order to judge whether the club really has in fact put together a good case as to how development at Agecroft would benefit the community. You evidently take that on faith and see your contribution as attending games and giving your support to the team on a match day. I would prefer to see some firmer evidence and be given an opportunity to contribute to the needed lobbying of Councillors and others through normal democratic processes. If a strong case has in fact been made, the club ought to be proud of what it has done and should have no problem sharing the evidence and publicising its ambitions as much as possible.

Where we definately agree is that the gate on Friday was pretty encouraging, albeit against a side with relatively high away support and probably boosted by a novelty factor and no other games going on locally, particularly Super League not having started. Great from my perspective to have extensive commentary on Radio Manchester, to which I was glued, for what was a good performance and therefore good free publicity. On a note of caution when Leigh visited Park Lane in the Northern Rail Cup the gates were similarly around the 1,000 mark. A winning team will no doubt help a good deal, but the real test will come in the bread-and-butter league matches to come. Admission for £5 to Salford season ticket holders is a good deal for them. I do earnestly believe that some added certainty about what is going to happen next season and a higher profile campaign for Agecroft to be developed could only benefit the gates as it will persuade people to take the club more seriously.

As a slight aside, I always find it a paradox when existing fans say they want more people to join them at matches, but on the other hand are not interested in the views of those who currently don't go. If you are not interested in understanding why people currently don't go, how can you know what to do in order to persuade them to change their behaviours?

How can my opinion be wrong? That's just hypocritical really when in almost every other thread you moan that others don't value your views. I don't agree with you, this doesn't make me wrong. I could say I BELIEVE that Salford will win Superleague this season, yes i'd be factually incorrect but not wrong in my opinion.

One of the basic facts is, Phil, that Swinton Lions do not have the resources to set up such a campaign, if someone was willing to take this forward in a volunteer role then brilliant, but then again, who's to say it would be any more successful than the current system and who could possibly find the time? I don't have the time to put in such a committment, which is why I attend the games and show my support in whatever way I can, apologies if you do not value the basic support of your team in other people attending games, in which your opinion is valid where you say this is my contribution in supporting my team.

If you don't agree with me then fair enough, I will not consider your views wrong or any less valuable because you can't attend games.

And just another small note, we didn't know where we would be playing in 2011 at the beginning of the last season, 145 years and we're still here!

[PhillH]

How can my opinion be wrong? That's just hypocritical really when in almost every other thread you moan that others don't value your views. I don't agree with you, this doesn't make me wrong. I could say I BELIEVE that Salford will win Superleague this season, yes i'd be factually incorrect but not wrong in my opinion.

One of the basic facts is, Phil, that Swinton Lions do not have the resources to set up such a campaign, if someone was willing to take this forward in a volunteer role then brilliant, but then again, who's to say it would be any more successful than the current system and who could possibly find the time? I don't have the time to put in such a committment, which is why I attend the games and show my support in whatever way I can, apologies if you do not value the basic support of your team in other people attending games, in which your opinion is valid where you say this is my contribution in supporting my team.

If you don't agree with me then fair enough, I will not consider your views wrong or any less valuable because you can't attend games.

And just another small note, we didn't know where we would be playing in 2011 at the beginning of the last season, 145 years and we're still here!

Bryce, twice in this string you have mis-represented my posts. Firstly by asserting that I am in favour of a "hate campaign" against Councillors and secondly by claiming that I am in favour of Council Members being castigated. Neither is true, and I have gone to the trouble of explaining why. Expression of your own opinion is one thing, mis-representation of other people's views is another.

The penny does at least appear to be dropping to some extent now.

Swinton Lions wouldn't need to commit major resources to launch a campaign, but it would need to provide clear and open leadership - sufficient to unite all interested individuals / organisations behind the cause of getting Agecroft developed and to coordinate the inputs. Only that way can the pro-agenda have any chance at all of being heard most effectively. If the club has put together a good case for Agecroft being developed, why not share it and publicise it - this ought to be the starting point. If things were properly opened up the case for developing the site could be made much stronger, particularly if new community focussed needs come forward, which may open up avenues of funding that so far have not been considered. There is a growing population on the new estates around the site that need amenities, for example. Good practice would be for the club to get its plans into the overall vision for the future of the area - then you can think about using part of a ground for education or health purposes etc as has been done elsewhere - thereby making the project more viable. To be honest, without that sort of work being done I cannot see how the project can be made viable as there is no real scope for cross-subsidising development on the site and as we all know the club does not have sufficient resources of its own to develop a ground as a private venture.

Clearly the ongoing support on match days is very important. Existing supporters deserve immense credit for keeping the club going through thin and thinner. I miss being able to go to games and have not been able to do it for quite a while but hope the opportunity will come this season. The bigger picture is that not enough people are proactively following the team anymore and new supporters are needed in order for the club to be viable for another 145 years. The club needs to rediscover how to market itself to a broader audience and particularly upcoming generations for whom the club has very limited relevance at the moment - survival for survival's sake won't lure them in. If a new ground doesn't happen reasonably quickly we might run out of time and what a tragedy that would be.

[Bryce]

Bryce, twice in this string you have mis-represented my posts. Firstly by asserting that I am in favour of a "hate campaign" against Councillors and secondly by claiming that I am in favour of Council Members being castigated. Neither is true, and I have gone to the trouble of explaining why. Expression of your own opinion is one thing, mis-representation of other people's views is another.

The penny does at least appear to be dropping to some extent now.

Swinton Lions wouldn't need to commit major resources to launch a campaign, but it would need to provide clear and open leadership - sufficient to unite all interested individuals / organisations behind the cause of getting Agecroft developed and to coordinate the inputs. Only that way can the pro-agenda have any chance at all of being heard most effectively. If the club has put together a good case for Agecroft being developed, why not share it and publicise it - this ought to be the starting point. If things were properly opened up the case for developing the site could be made much stronger, particularly if new community focussed needs come forward, which may open up avenues of funding that so far have not been considered. There is a growing population on the new estates around the site that need amenities, for example. Good practice would be for the club to get its plans into the overall vision for the future of the area - then you can think about using part of a ground for education or health purposes etc as has been done elsewhere - thereby making the project more viable. To be honest, without that sort of work being done I cannot see how the project can be made viable as there is no real scope for cross-subsidising development on the site and as we all know the club does not have sufficient resources of its own to develop a ground as a private venture.

Clearly the ongoing support on match days is very important. Existing supporters deserve immense credit for keeping the club going through thin and thinner. I miss being able to go to games and have not been able to do it for quite a while but hope the opportunity will come this season. The bigger picture is that not enough people are proactively following the team anymore and new supporters are needed in order for the club to be viable for another 145 years. The club needs to rediscover how to market itself to a broader audience and particularly upcoming generations for whom the club has very limited relevance at the moment - survival for survival's sake won't lure them in. If a new ground doesn't happen reasonably quickly we might run out of time and what a tragedy that would be.

I'm sure I have and I apologise....but then again the idea of my initial post was to bring an end to this kind of garbage (obviously not taken on board). We all know what we would like to happen, but most of what you say is not viable, in many ways. IMO, Swinton Lions WOULD have to commit major resources to do what you have stated many times previous. Why not just be realistic and get behind the club with support?

Also Phil, do you not trust what has been stated by Mr Kidd about the plans for the stadium/communication with the council? and if not, why?

[PhillH]

I'm sure I have and I apologise....but then again the idea of my initial post was to bring an end to this kind of garbage (obviously not taken on board). We all know what we would like to happen, but most of what you say is not viable, in many ways. IMO, Swinton Lions WOULD have to commit major resources to do what you have stated many times previous. Why not just be realistic and get behind the club with support?

Also Phil, do you not trust what has been stated by Mr Kidd about the plans for the stadium/communication with the council? and if not, why?

The key question is; what way forward with developing Agecroft WOULD be viable? The money has got to come from somewhere, if not through dual uses what approach would you recommend?

From the position of the general public and stakeholder organisations the question you ask needs to be looked at from a different perspective. The club took it upon itself to take up the mantle as regards getting Agecroft developed as long ago as 2006. Thus the onus is on the club to deliver. It follows that the key question for the future direction of the club beyond the end of this season is: Has John et al provided a convincing case that the club is fully committed to a future within the Swinton community and identified a means to deliver on its promises about getting Agecroft developed in time for the 2012 season? At the moment my personal answer would be "no".

The Rimmer report due out this week will set the bar at a capacity of 3,000 and minimum of 500 covered seats to play in the Championship.

[Bryce]

The key question is; what way forward with developing Agecroft WOULD be viable? The money has got to come from somewhere, if not through dual uses what approach would you recommend?

From the position of the general public and stakeholder organisations the question you ask needs to be looked at from a different perspective. The club took it upon itself to take up the mantle as regards getting Agecroft developed as long ago as 2006. Thus the onus is on the club to deliver. It follows that the key question for the future direction of the club beyond the end of this season is: Has John et al provided a convincing case that the club is fully committed to a future within the Swinton community and identified a means to deliver on its promises about getting Agecroft developed in time for the 2012 season? At the moment my personal answer would be "no".

The Rimmer report due out this week will set the bar at a capacity of 3,000 and minimum of 500 covered seats to play in the Championship.

Good point Phill, although I really cannot see another way to provide a more effective proposal to the council with the resources available. According to Mr Kidd he has put a case forward to the council regarding a multi-use stadium (I can't remember exact capacities but he did elaborate), and we know exactly where we want to put it. The major issue is obviously funding (sponsors/council), for me it's easy to see how the proposals would benefit the community, the trip to the LSV on Sunday will provide a great example of this, on a larger scale.

For me I don't think we would ever get close to getting what we all want if the club had stayed at Park Lane. Moving to the Willows has put us back on the map in relation to council backing and will only be a good thing. With a good 2011 campaign (hopefully resulting in promotion) and increasing attendance figures, we will be proving our worth to the community successfully. Whether it will be enough remains to be seen, hopefully we'll hear something promising from Mr Kidd soon, as was promised in the meeting before Christmas.
Individually there is very little we can do apart from turn up and support the club in whatever way possible. I do agree with you Phill in that if anything that you have propesed previously is to be organised that it has to either be organised by the club itself or at the very least have active backing in whatever is put forward. However there isn't anything to say that it would be any more successful than what is currently in place.

Good news about Tommy Gallagher closing in on a return to fitness, should hopefully have Phil Joseph back on Sunday too!

[marshy1]

Good point Phill, although I really cannot see another way to provide a more effective proposal to the council with the resources available. According to Mr Kidd he has put a case forward to the council regarding a multi-use stadium (I can't remember exact capacities but he did elaborate), and we know exactly where we want to put it. The major issue is obviously funding (sponsors/council), for me it's easy to see how the proposals would benefit the community, the trip to the LSV on Sunday will provide a great example of this, on a larger scale.

For me I don't think we would ever get close to getting what we all want if the club had stayed at Park Lane. Moving to the Willows has put us back on the map in relation to council backing and will only be a good thing. With a good 2011 campaign (hopefully resulting in promotion) and increasing attendance figures, we will be proving our worth to the community successfully. Whether it will be enough remains to be seen, hopefully we'll hear something promising from Mr Kidd soon, as was promised in the meeting before Christmas.
Individually there is very little we can do apart from turn up and support the club in whatever way possible. I do agree with you Phill in that if anything that you have propesed previously is to be organised that it has to either be organised by the club itself or at the very least have active backing in whatever is put forward. However there isn't anything to say that it would be any more successful than what is currently in place.

Good news about Tommy Gallagher closing in on a return to fitness, should hopefully have Phil Joseph back on Sunday too!

Bryce,Phil Joeseph would have played on Friday but as he told me he got caught up in the traffic chaos which is the M60 and arrived late forcing his withdrawal from the squad.He did look very dejected about not being on the pitch and I feel he would have made a big differance to the result,taking nothing away from his replacement on the night.

[GLENNGARY]

Philh all your questions are if, why ,when,how and no. Now I like every other fan on this sight would love to know where the development of Agecroft is up to.As you are a very articulate person instead of coming on this sight and writing in a negative way wouldn't your obvious talent be better employed writing to the club for an accurate update on where the club are on this project.any imformation you receive can then be posted on this sight,and the fans and yourself will then be in the know and it wouldbring an end to all this bickering.

[marshy1]

Philh all your questions are if, why ,when,how and no. Now I like every other fan on this sight would love to know where the development of Agecroft is up to.As you are a very articulate person instead of coming on this sight and writing in a negative way wouldn't your obvious talent be better employed writing to the club for an accurate update on where the club are on this project.any imformation you receive can then be posted on this sight,and the fans and yourself will then be in the know and it wouldbring an end to all this bickering.

Here here.

[pc6090]

Philh all your questions are if, why ,when,how and no. Now I like every other fan on this sight would love to know where the development of Agecroft is up to.As you are a very articulate person instead of coming on this sight and writing in a negative way wouldn't your obvious talent be better employed writing to the club for an accurate update on where the club are on this project.any imformation you receive can then be posted on this sight,and the fans and yourself will then be in the know and it wouldbring an end to all this bickering.

why should it be the responsibility of Phil to write to the club on everyone's behalf. John Kidd monitors this site for comments about him so he will see all the perfectly valid questions Phil raises anyway. The oly reason why Phil seems to have so many negative comments to make on how the club is run is that there are so many negative comments to make on how the club is run, the most optimistic view would be that indeed the club does have a very real and valid plan for next season with funding in place for Agecroft, but if they for whatever reason aren't willing to share these plans then they have only themselves to blame for all the comments, what some would call negative, others would call constructively critical.

I don't belive Phil has ever made comments or critisied the Kidds or the club without completey justifying his arguments, only to have the "rose timted spectacle club" to respond suggesting we all should blindly support the club. The whole point of a forum is to stimulate debate and question any of the decsion making of the club, as long as this is done in a civil manner then lets continue having these debates

[Bryce]

why should it be the responsibility of Phil to write to the club on everyone's behalf. John Kidd monitors this site for comments about him so he will see all the perfectly valid questions Phil raises anyway. The oly reason why Phil seems to have so many negative comments to make on how the club is run is that there are so many negative comments to make on how the club is run, the most optimistic view would be that indeed the club does have a very real and valid plan for next season with funding in place for Agecroft, but if they for whatever reason aren't willing to share these plans then they have only themselves to blame for all the comments, what some would call negative, others would call constructively critical.

I don't belive Phil has ever made comments or critisied the Kidds or the club without completey justifying his arguments, only to have the "rose timted spectacle club" to respond suggesting we all should blindly support the club. The whole point of a forum is to stimulate debate and question any of the decsion making of the club, as long as this is done in a civil manner then lets continue having these debates

To be fair you could say that everyone that has attended games and supported the club over the past 20 years have shown blind support and if that's the case then the club wouldn't be in existence without the "rose tinted spectacle club". This is the closest we've got to getting our own stadium back in the borough. I welcome opposing views as it provides a debate, but i just don't see the reason to be "constructively critical" at a time which is generally fairly positive for the club.

[who cares?]

To be fair you could say that everyone that has attended games and supported the club over the past 20 years have shown blind support and if that's the case then the club wouldn't be in existence without the "rose tinted spectacle club". This is the closest we've got to getting our own stadium back in the borough. I welcome opposing views as it provides a debate, but i just don't see the reason to be "constructively critical" at a time which is generally fairly positive for the club.

whats positive about not knowing whats going on with agecroft and still no concrete plans in place for a home of our own?

on the pitch seems better but its seemingly the same old smoke and mirrors and nobody knowing anything which leads to people asking whats going on and why

but what use is it doing well on the ptich if there is no ground to actually play at next season?

[Bryce]

Again, you've just described pretty much the same situation that we have had since we left Station Road. Apart from the fact we have a decent team and prospects of a new stadium?

[who cares?]

Again, you've just described pretty much the same situation that we have had since we left Station Road. Apart from the fact we have a decent team and prospects of a new stadium?

sorry what prospect of a new stadium? all there is is a field with a fence round it, no ground would be ready in time if building started now even.