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Manchester uni charging £9k tuition fees


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#41 Griff9of13

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:26 PM

just seen on Twitter from a friend who works there that the wonderful and ancient seat of learning Liverpool John Moores University will be charging £9k from next year.
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#42 exxile

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:54 PM

It could be that the poor buggers who do humanities and languages don't really need the amount of money that courses in engineering, sciences (and possibly medicine) do.

I dunno, might be one reason for such a situation.


Cadavers don't come cheap.
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#43 exxile

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:07 PM

Sometimes I wonder if humanities tutors live in the real world. 6 hours lectures a week, 6:1 staff student ratio in tutorials all do they can draw pretty pictures, write a poem or provide commentary on some sociology ######. In science we have a 24:1 staff student ratio, typical 14 hours of contact time and deliver a comprehensive and useful curriculum. I firmly believe that HE should be freely available to those who can do it, if that means cutting the number of humanities places then so be it, as a country we need to focus on what will benefit us most.


We agree again. Just how many psychology and sociology graduates from the University of Neasden do we need?

Look at this rubbish:

Tourism Management at the 'University' of Gloucestershire
http://www.glos.ac.u.../entry2011.aspx

Football Studies at the 'University' of Bedfordshire
http://www.beds.ac.u...poman/ba-foostu

Interior Design at Anglia Ruskin 'University'
http://www.anglia.ac.../ugft/w250.html
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#44 exxile

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:14 PM

True JB. Mathematics is probably the cheapest course to deliver and the most useful. At our place majority of the funding goes to social science [sic] and BA's.


What do they find to spend it on?
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#45 exxile

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:27 PM

Careful; you're going down the "higher education is vocational, and hence we should only fund useful courses" route there, and I'm not convinced by that argument at all.


I'd agree with that. There must be some higher education which is non vocational, but there is now too much of this available. Oxbridge produces all the philosophers we need. More of a worry is the courses which appear to be 'vocational' but in fact produce graduates with no prospect of employment.

The best way for free HE might well be to fund fewer universities.

But the lower-rep institutes improve access to HE for the non-traditional demographic!, I hear you cry.

Well, if they're charging that demographic then it's not free is it? So what, exactly, is the point of having loads of universities when we could have fewer and everyone is on a scholarship? Less money required, better overall quality. Those who can, do - and they don't have to pay for it.


Agreed again. Halve the number of university students. If that means closing half the 'Universities' then so be it.
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#46 Millman

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 08:06 AM

What do they find to spend it on?

Staff, books, facilities etc.

#47 JohnM

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 08:14 AM

Staff, books, facilities etc.


MANCHESTER University plans to shed hundreds of jobs after going £30m into debt.As many as 400 teaching and support posts could be axed.....

#48 Severus

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 08:19 AM

MANCHESTER University plans to shed hundreds of jobs after going £30m into debt.As many as 400 teaching and support posts could be axed.....

Source?
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#49 Student Ram

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:14 PM

Cadavers don't come cheap.


They usually do, because they are often donated as part of the persons will, but the numbers doing so are very low, such that most anatomy teaching is now done on pre-prepared pro sections and with computer packages. Anyway, anatomy teaching as with most of the basic sciences seems to be less important than some of the touchy feely stuff taught at med school these days, sigh.
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#50 paley

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:33 PM

This quote says it all for me:

"Programming languages are classic examples of black-boxes. They incorporate knowledge about computer architecture: memory, registers, machine codes, and all the other aspects of actual physical devices. They allow individuals who know nothing about the inner workings of a computer to utilize knowledge about computing logic and produce useful output."

It also allows you to create disgustingly inefficient programs which waste time and money, because the programmer doesn't understand things like memory and computer architecture. It's actually a good example of why you need to understand those things, even if you have a simplified interface to work with.

The article notes that only a relatively small proportion of people need to be specialists, but that's the point - you don't know who they are going to be, and so at the HE level you need to educate with the assumption that any of the students could be going on to do such things. Anything else is to effectively hamstring the students at an early stage, in my opinion.

Any knowledge involved enough to require black boxing will have subtleties and traps for the unaware; I've seen it myself, in situations where an understanding of what that black box is actually doing could have avoided a hell of a lot of frustration and lost time. You don't shouldn't be giving someone a calculator before they know what addition, subtraction etc are and how they work.


Most programmers these days won't ever get close to fully utilising the hardware they use - my home PC is quad core, hyperthreaded, 64 bit and with 8GB of RAM. The programming language I wrote for data manipulation and populating the database for the engine I wrote doesn't ever use more than about 100MB of RAM even when processing 10s of millions of records.

A lot of programming languages these days are black boxes - algorithms are built in - I know how to write a linked list (even an AVL balanced list as I use in my compiler) but I have no need to write one in, say, C# as the generic collections in that language and framework do the job. Even compilers can be called from the frameworks now - I am writing a declarative data language using XML and have built the C# compiler into the program so if the declarative language doesn't do everything you want you can embed C# classes into a CDATA section and have them compile into the final program - that feature took me about an hour and maybe 20 lines of code.

I have interviewed people who claim to have a first in computer science from a good university but were unable to describe a simple linked list or memory management - even in these days of garbage collection you can get huge savings from, for example, object reuse. But very few people seem to know that or even be bothered about it.
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#51 Phil

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:43 PM

Welcome to the bright new world, some of us said this would happen and were denounced as Jeremiahs, bye bye working clas kids getting education, hello dole queue, hello the 1930's.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#52 Severus

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:49 PM

Welcome to the bright new world, some of us said this would happen and were denounced as Jeremiahs, bye bye working clas kids getting education, hello dole queue, hello the 1930's.

If anyone is surprised by this then they are an idiot. Of course these proposed fees will all be subject to government approval.
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#53 Phil

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:57 PM

Welcome to the bright new world, some of us said this would happen and were denounced as Jeremiahs, bye bye working clas kids getting education, hello dole queue, hello the 1930's.



If anyone is surprised by this then they are an idiot. Of course these proposed fees will all be subject to government approval.



I'm not surprised at all, i said they'd all charge £9k a year unlike some of the right-wing apologists on here who said it would never happen.

as for gov't approval, lets face it, it's a shoe in.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#54 Millman

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 06:28 PM

as for gov't approval, lets face it, it's a shoe in.

Nah the LibDems will veto it.....

#55 JohnM

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 06:48 PM

I'm not surprised at all, i said they'd all charge £9k a year unlike some of the right-wing apologists on here who said it would never happen.

as for gov't approval, lets face it, it's a shoe in.


Do keep up at the back there! :tongue:

1. No one is charging £9000 yet. So far 18 universities out of 89 have signaled their intention to charge more than £6000 for some courses starting in Autumn 2012. They might want to for some courses but they cannot do so without agreement from the Office for Fair Access.

see here.

You can see the current University of Manchester access agreement here. Have a read!

2. There is some research indicates that
- The average level of fees will be £8,000 (as opposed to the government's expectation of £7,500)

- a third of universities will charge the full £9,000

- a third of universities will charge between £7,500 and £9,000

- only a third of universities will charge £6,000 - £7,000.

3. what's a right wing apologist?

4. Shoo-in, lad, its SHOO-IN!!!!!

Personally, if the universities across the board do not meet their obligations if such fees are agreed by OFFA, I'll do what I can by writing to my MP and to the PM. What will you do?

#56 shrek

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 06:50 PM

Nah the LibDems will veto it.....


No doubt the party who introduced them in the first place will put up a decent argument against them now or is 6k ok with everyone?

#57 Severus

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 06:56 PM

Personally, if the universities across the board do not meet their obligations if such fees are agreed by OFFA, I'll do what I can by writing to my MP and to the PM. What will you do?

Not voting Tory would be a good start.
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#58 Phil

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:52 PM

Do keep up at the back there! :tongue:

1. No one is charging £9000 yet. So far 18 universities out of 89 have signaled their intention to charge more than £6000 for some courses starting in Autumn 2012. They might want to for some courses but they cannot do so without agreement from the Office for Fair Access.

see here.

You can see the current University of Manchester access agreement here. Have a read!

2. There is some research indicates that
- The average level of fees will be £8,000 (as opposed to the government's expectation of £7,500)

- a third of universities will charge the full £9,000

- a third of universities will charge between £7,500 and £9,000

- only a third of universities will charge £6,000 - £7,000.

3. what's a right wing apologist?

4. Shoo-in, lad, its SHOO-IN!!!!!

Personally, if the universities across the board do not meet their obligations if such fees are agreed by OFFA, I'll do what I can by writing to my MP and to the PM. What will you do?


bla bla bla

you're a right-wing apologist

fact is HE should be free and it's not.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#59 JohnM

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 08:26 PM

I have nothing to apologise for. You have no idea what I stand for.

Have you actually read any of the content I have provided?

So HE should be free? That's very much a minority view, as it was Labour who introduced these fees in the first place. Of course, it could be done, if England followed Scotland where Kenneth MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Minister has suggested that uni staff take a pay cut so that they don't have to introduces fees in Scotland.

However, exploring your statement.

What do you mean by free? Free accommodation, free subsistence, free books, free computers, free bus fares? Free beer?

What is the current total cost of higher education?

How would you fund higher education?

How would you control entry to higher education, given that if it were free, they may be a huge increase in applications?

Where would you get all the staff, premises and equipment from?

How would you handle the huge increase in drop-outs as those unsuited to higher education packed it in?

Somehow , I can't see you getting your way.

Oh, and here's what Labour did in its dying throes - University budgets cut by 14%

Edited by JohnM, 30 March 2011 - 08:29 PM.


#60 exxile

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:39 PM

A lot of programming languages these days are black boxes - algorithms are built in - I know how to write a linked list (even an AVL balanced list as I use in my compiler) but I have no need to write one in, say, C# as the generic collections in that language and framework do the job. Even compilers can be called from the frameworks now - I am writing a declarative data language using XML and have built the C# compiler into the program so if the declarative language doesn't do everything you want you can embed C# classes into a CDATA section and have them compile into the final program


I ran this through Babelfish using German, French and Spanish, to see if I could understand it, and now its a lot better:

Many languages of programming are aerial authors - of the algorithms they happen to be geeinbaut - me can a connected list write (a AVL even list balanced, whereas j' it uses in my compiler), me no necessity have at the moment despite, in the C# tenth to write, whereas the generic accumulations in this language and the pictures regulate the work. Compilers even can now be appointed by the pictures - qu' he writes to have established therefore a language of data of declaration by means of XML and the C# of the compilers in the program if the declaration language doesn' ; t does that it can fit all you to C# categories in a CDATA section and can be compiled in the final program to wish


Thanks
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