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Manchester uni charging £9k tuition fees


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#61 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:11 AM

Not voting Tory would be a good start.

How would that have had any effect, given that it was the Labour government that introduced the fees and payback regime including £15k pa threshold and payback amounts.

The Labour government also commissioned the Browne Report which actually recommended no cap on fees.

The current Government rejected the no-cap idea, and increased significantly the threshold at which graduates start to pay back their fees. They also increased significantly the steps Universities had to take to ensure increased participation from students from lower income families

The fact remains that there are still no up front fees to pay and that no one pays until the have completed their course.

It remains to be seen of course if between now and the beginning of the academic year in 18 months time if OFFA have the balls to act, which I an starting to doubt, given that the head of OFFA was previously Vice-Chancellor at the University of Manchester and you know how precious, defensive and protective the UK educational community is.

However, they do state, "Universities and colleges now have until Tuesday 19 April 2011 to submit their 2012-13 access agreements. OFFA will then assess their agreements and announce all agreements that have been approved by 11 July 2011."

so we'll see on 11th July, won't we.

Edited by JohnM, 31 March 2011 - 07:24 AM.


#62 Severus

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:59 AM

How would that have had any effect, given that it was the Labour government that introduced the fees and payback regime including £15k pa threshold and payback amounts.

The Labour government also commissioned the Browne Report which actually recommended no cap on fees.

The current Government rejected the no-cap idea, and increased significantly the threshold at which graduates start to pay back their fees. They also increased significantly the steps Universities had to take to ensure increased participation from students from lower income families

The fact remains that there are still no up front fees to pay and that no one pays until the have completed their course.

It remains to be seen of course if between now and the beginning of the academic year in 18 months time if OFFA have the balls to act, which I an starting to doubt, given that the head of OFFA was previously Vice-Chancellor at the University of Manchester and you know how precious, defensive and protective the UK educational community is.

However, they do state, "Universities and colleges now have until Tuesday 19 April 2011 to submit their 2012-13 access agreements. OFFA will then assess their agreements and announce all agreements that have been approved by 11 July 2011."

so we'll see on 11th July, won't we.

Labour were wrong to introduce top up fees in the first place but the Tories are revelling in raising them so that people from less well off backgrounds will be burdened with massive debts. This deep down is what Tories want. If I was in the position that many young people will now find themselves I very much doubt I would choose to go to university. I am very grateful for the chances I have been given and would like to see the subsequent generations also have the same opportunities.
Fides invicta triumphat

#63 Millman

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:02 AM

The next generation could well be the ones that state "I am the first person in my family not to go to university". Except of course if their family are loaded.

#64 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:20 AM

This deep down is what Tories want.


I'm sure you would not want me to be anything but honest, so I'm obliged to say, " rubbish, complete rubbish."

#65 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:24 AM

The next generation could well be the ones that state "I am the first person in my family not to go to university". Except of course if their family are loaded.



Would be, but won't, since there are more places available at University than ever, and more schemes to encourage members of less well off families to attend. Still, if some potential studens are not clever enough to work all this out, then they are maybe not clever enough for University in the first place.

#66 Griff9of13

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:24 AM

just seen on Twitter from a friend who works there that the wonderful and ancient seat of learning Liverpool John Moores University will be charging £9k from next year.

I went to LJMU and graduated in 2004. As a mature student returning to education the overall cost of doing so was a major consideration. With the fees then being £1000 pa it cost me £3500 (I did a 4 year sandwich course; they charge half fees for your year out of university and in work!) The fees combined with the student lone I needed to live on (I also worked part time throughout my time at uni, with having my own place to live and having no parental home to fall back on) left me with a total debt of around £15k. I am lucky, I will have paid this off in full by the end of this year, but that is still 7 years since graduating.

With the fees for LJMU proposed to be £9k pa, meaning my course would have left me with a debt of £31.5k in fees alone (a total debt of around £44k), I very much doubt I would have made the move. Because at those levels it would be doubtful I would have managed to clear the debt before I retied.

I know some will say that’s no problem, as the debt would be written off in those circumstances, but I’m not convinced the banks would take such a view. If so why when applying for credit such as a mortgage do they ask you to declare ALL current debts INCLUDING student loans?

This move of charging such large sums will have a detrimental effect on take up of HE by students from poorer backgrounds no mater what those who support it say.
"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#67 exxile

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:42 AM

Labour were wrong to introduce top up fees in the first place but the Tories are revelling in raising them so that people from less well off backgrounds will be burdened with massive debts. This deep down is what Tories want. If I was in the position that many young people will now find themselves I very much doubt I would choose to go to university. I am very grateful for the chances I have been given and would like to see the subsequent generations also have the same opportunities.


This is the inevitable consequence of attempting to send 50% of 18 year olds to University and you know it. Send 20% to University and it would not be necessary.

To say 'This deep down is what Tories want' is a pitifully poor statement from a chap as bright and educated as yourself.
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

#68 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:49 AM

If so why when applying for credit such as a mortgage do they ask you to declare ALL current debts INCLUDING student loans?


That's an interesting point. As I understand it the banks etc are interested in your ability to pay the mortgage payments, so would take student loan repayments into account when working this out. Some clarity would help.

Of course, this would not be an issue if the Labour Government has not spent 13 years screwing the housing market in search of cheap votes.

Anyway, I've just written to the head of OFFA asking him to show he has the power and will to act on those Unis that are assuming they will get away with charging £9000 across the board.

Edited by JohnM, 31 March 2011 - 08:52 AM.


#69 Haloman

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:53 AM

I went to LJMU and graduated in 2004. As a mature student returning to education the overall cost of doing so was a major consideration. With the fees then being £1000 pa it cost me £3500 (I did a 4 year sandwich course; they charge half fees for your year out of university and in work!) The fees combined with the student lone I needed to live on (I also worked part time throughout my time at uni, with having my own place to live and having no parental home to fall back on) left me with a total debt of around £15k. I am lucky, I will have paid this off in full by the end of this year, but that is still 7 years since graduating.

With the fees for LJMU proposed to be £9k pa, meaning my course would have left me with a debt of £31.5k in fees alone (a total debt of around £44k), I very much doubt I would have made the move. Because at those levels it would be doubtful I would have managed to clear the debt before I retied.

I know some will say that’s no problem, as the debt would be written off in those circumstances, but I’m not convinced the banks would take such a view. If so why when applying for credit such as a mortgage do they ask you to declare ALL current debts INCLUDING student loans?

This move of charging such large sums will have a detrimental effect on take up of HE by students from poorer backgrounds no mater what those who support it say.



A four year course to learn how to make sandwiches? :o

Sheesh, say goodnight Gracie ! :wacko:

:ph34r:

#70 Griff9of13

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:55 AM

This is the inevitable consequence of attempting to send 50% of 18 year olds to University and you know it. Send 20% to University and it would not be necessary.

To say 'This deep down is what Tories want' is a pitifully poor statement from a chap as bright and educated as yourself.

I'm with you on reducing the numbers applying for university (having been to university reasonably recently, and seen the huge numbers of students that drop out within the first year, it is obvious that a great many weren't really that keen to go in the first place). However engineering a situation where only the well off can afford to go is not the right way to go about reducing the numbers.
"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#71 gingerjon

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:56 AM

If so why when applying for credit such as a mortgage do they ask you to declare ALL current debts INCLUDING student loans?


Just gone through this.

They ask for all details of your expenditure. All credit cards, all childcare, all loans etc etc.
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#72 exxile

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:03 AM

I'm with you on reducing the numbers applying for university (having been to university reasonably recently, and seen the huge numbers of students that drop out within the first year, it is obvious that a great many weren't really that keen to go in the first place). However engineering a situation where only the well off can afford to go is not the right way to go about reducing the numbers.


Introduce fees or drastically reduce University numbers.

I prefer the second option.
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

#73 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:11 AM

However engineering a situation where only the well off can afford to go is not the right way to go about reducing the numbers.

That is not the case, though. It may be true that scare stories about debt are putting off the debt averse less well off but to say only the well off can afford to go is just not true.

#74 Griff9of13

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:13 AM

Just gone through this.

They ask for all details of your expenditure. All credit cards, all childcare, all loans etc etc.

Exactly, so will having an extra £40k in student loans have any effect on your ability to get a mortgage?

I supose we should just sit back and trust the banks on this one. :blink:
"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#75 gingerjon

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:17 AM

Exactly, so will having an extra £40k in student loans have any effect on your ability to get a mortgage?


Depends on the repayment terms.
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#76 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:32 AM

I supose we should just sit back and trust the banks on this one. :blink:


:laugh: :laugh:

see LLoyds bank

#77 Phil

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:00 AM

I have nothing to apologise for. You have no idea what I stand for.

Have you actually read any of the content I have provided?

So HE should be free? That's very much a minority view, as it was Labour who introduced these fees in the first place. Of course, it could be done, if England followed Scotland where Kenneth MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Minister has suggested that uni staff take a pay cut so that they don't have to introduces fees in Scotland.

However, exploring your statement.

What do you mean by free? Free accommodation, free subsistence, free books, free computers, free bus fares? Free beer?

What is the current total cost of higher education?

How would you fund higher education?

How would you control entry to higher education, given that if it were free, they may be a huge increase in applications?

Where would you get all the staff, premises and equipment from?

How would you handle the huge increase in drop-outs as those unsuited to higher education packed it in?

Somehow , I can't see you getting your way.

Oh, and here's what Labour did in its dying throes - University budgets cut by 14%



You seem to think that I'm a labour supporter, I'm not. They are as commiteed to the capitalist system as the tories are.

You're quite obviously a right wing apologist, apologist meaning "A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution"

I'm not going to bandy figures with you, I'd fund health, education et al by, as Healey said (but didn't implement) "squeezing the rich till the pips squeak" That would be a good start.

Ending a futile intervention in Afghanistan and diverting those funds would pay for uni places and finance the NHS.

But lets be honest, you right wing apologists don't want a fair and equtable society do you?

You're probably not even a pig with its snout in the trough, but you're more than willing to say "hey leave those pigs alone, they're only getting what they're due"
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#78 Steve May

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:28 AM

Just gone through this.

They ask for all details of your expenditure. All credit cards, all childcare, all loans etc etc.


Ah, I remember the heady days when I got a mortgage

"Hello, I'm interested a mortgage please."

"Brilliant, how much would you like?

"We've only just started looking so we're not sure. How much can I have?"

"Hang on, just type in a few details.....Here we go. £870,000. I'm afraid it's because you only have a small deposit. I can start arranging it for you now if you like"



Verbatim. I almost fell of my chair. How the hell I would have repaid it...

That's me.  I'm done.


#79 gingerjon

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:33 AM

Ah, I remember the heady days when I got a mortgage

"Hello, I'm interested a mortgage please."

"Brilliant, how much would you like?

"We've only just started looking so we're not sure. How much can I have?"

"Hang on, just type in a few details.....Here we go. £870,000. I'm afraid it's because you only have a small deposit. I can start arranging it for you now if you like"



Verbatim. I almost fell of my chair. How the hell I would have repaid it...


It was like that for our first mortgage!

EDIT
With the "recommendation" that we went interest-only but didn't do anything to build up equivalent to capital

Edited by gingerjon, 31 March 2011 - 10:34 AM.

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#80 Millman

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:36 AM

Ah, I remember the heady days when I got a mortgage

"Hello, I'm interested a mortgage please."

"Brilliant, how much would you like?

"We've only just started looking so we're not sure. How much can I have?"

"Hang on, just type in a few details.....Here we go. £870,000. I'm afraid it's because you only have a small deposit. I can start arranging it for you now if you like"



Verbatim. I almost fell of my chair. How the hell I would have repaid it...

Pretty much sums up how it was for us when we went for our second mortgage. Although we had a sizable deposit from the sale of our first house I was amazed at what I was being offered.

The only way to approach it is to calculate what you think you can suffer in monthly repayments and work back from there as the clowns in the banking industry were intent on sending us bankrupt.




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