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Manchester uni charging £9k tuition fees


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#81 Severus

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 10:42 AM

To say 'This deep down is what Tories want' is a pitifully poor statement from a chap as bright and educated as yourself.

Fair enough. Just let's say I deeply distrust the Conservative party and worry for the future of our country whilst they are in charge.
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#82 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 01:26 PM

You seem to think that I'm a labour supporter, I'm not. They are as commiteed to the capitalist system as the tories are.

You're quite obviously a right wing apologist, apologist meaning "A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution"

I'm not going to bandy figures with you, I'd fund health, education et al by, as Healey said (but didn't implement) "squeezing the rich till the pips squeak" That would be a good start.

Ending a futile intervention in Afghanistan and diverting those funds would pay for uni places and finance the NHS.

But lets be honest, you right wing apologists don't want a fair and equtable society do you?

You're probably not even a pig with its snout in the trough, but you're more than willing to say "hey leave those pigs alone, they're only getting what they're due"


So if you are not a Labour supporter, which party do you support?

An apologist has something to apologize for. I don't. I support the Coalition but would wish for the Lib Dems to be more influential in places and the Tory right to be less influential.

Figures eh? Kind of weakens your argument if you don't have the figures.

If you squeezed all the rich until all the pips squeaked all the time, you might have just enough money to fill all the potholes in say, Barnsley and Dennis Healy, eh? Good old Bradford Grammar School scholarship and Balliol. Saw the error of his ways and soon abandoned the Communist Party. A fine Chancellor though, friend of the IMF and wielder of the public spending axe and architect of Labour's 1979 defeat? Are you sure you want to cite him?

Of course I want a fair and equitable society and it is entirely incorrect for you to imply otherwise.

As for your final sentence, well, I think you have just given yourself away to the whole forum.

I'll give you a chance though:

Which countries have governments that share your politics?

Of those, which governments have been democratically elected.

#83 exxile

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 02:10 PM

The next generation could well be the ones that state "I am the first person in my family not to go to university". Except of course if their family are loaded.


I think we should reduce the number of 18 year olds going to University to about 20%. What percentage do you think it should be?
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

#84 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 02:13 PM

The only way to approach it is to calculate what you think you can suffer in monthly repayments and work back from there as the clowns in the banking industry were intent on sending us bankrupt.


So if I understand you correctly, you are happy to go into debt by borrowing from the very bankers you ( and to be honest, almost all of us) despise, who in turn borrow from savers at a currently negative rate of interest.

#85 GeordieSaint

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 02:15 PM

I am studying for a Masters in Education at Southampton Uni currently. We have been debating the topic of fees, wider participation and economic development. The whole idea of wider participation increases the economic competitiveness of the UK is a myth. Wages are too high and productivity too low in the UK to challenge the likes of BRIC and the US. We are not a big player in the world anymore and the sooner we realise that, the better the country will be.

As for the fees, sadly, the country simply cannot afford to send 50% school/college leavers to university for free. The country is broke. Unless we drastically reduce numbers attend university, people will have to pay. Unless we want drastically reduce costs elsewhere such as in defence (already happening), NHS etc, people will have to pay. Unless we want taxes to mirror those in Scandanvia, people will have to pay. It is simple as that. In an ideal world, all education would be free, both HE and FE. In an ideal world, increases in education standards would improve social mobility and lifestyle. Sadly, it doesn't (Graduates not being able to get jobs and a lack of significant improvement in Scotland!).

An ideal system to follow would be the US model. There are State Universities, partially funded by the Federal Government but still mainly by the students themselves (and this is very similar to the costs the UK government are proposing), and private Universities, which receive little if any Federal funding. Scholarships are offered the universities to pay for unpriviledged kids to attend the university, either for sporting or academic abilities. Even in cash-rich China, students are required to pay, which is a small fortune considering their GNP is much lower than that in the West. I

If less-well off kids from the US and China can fund themselves through university, then ours can to. There needs to be a fundamental shift in attitude in this country to stop expecting things for free in a younger generation. Yes it will cost them money, time and effort (I paid to go to uni by working bloody hard in the holidays and through loans). It may cost parents (currently started paying into a fund monthly for any kids I may have who want to attend). But this is the reality of the situation we now live in, no matter how sad it may be.

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#86 Phil

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 02:19 PM

So if you are not a Labour supporter, which party do you support?

An apologist has something to apologize for. I don't. I support the Coalition but would wish for the Lib Dems to be more influential in places and the Tory right to be less influential.

Figures eh? Kind of weakens your argument if you don't have the figures.

If you squeezed all the rich until all the pips squeaked all the time, you might have just enough money to fill all the potholes in say, Barnsley and Dennis Healy, eh? Good old Bradford Grammar School scholarship and Balliol. Saw the error of his ways and soon abandoned the Communist Party. A fine Chancellor though, friend of the IMF and wielder of the public spending axe and architect of Labour's 1979 defeat? Are you sure you want to cite him?

Of course I want a fair and equitable society and it is entirely incorrect for you to imply otherwise.

As for your final sentence, well, I think you have just given yourself away to the whole forum.

I'll give you a chance though:

Which countries have governments that share your politics?

Of those, which governments have been democratically elected.



I don't support any party, I'm a libertarian socialist


Read my definition of an apologist again and deny you are one


I haven't got the figures I admit it, but it doesn't mean my point isn't valid


Yeah I'll cite Healey, why shouldn't I? I also criticised hime for not doing what he said he'd do


I deny your assertation that you want a fair and equitable society, every post you make on political matters denies it


I've nothing to give away, I hate rich capitalists and would gladly stretch their necks


Thanks for giving me a chance thats really decent of you


None and none, I never claimed there was a country of the blessed, that doesn't mean I will ever stop working for what I believe in.


Thank you
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#87 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 03:02 PM

I deny your assertation that you want a fair and equitable society, every post you make on political matters denies it

I hate rich capitalists and would gladly stretch their necks


1. Deny it all you like; lad, but is is still true. I'll bet any money I have already contributed more to a fair and equitable society than you will ever do.

2. Ah , I remember now! Are you are one of those who believes in violent disorder to get your way?

#88 sam

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 03:09 PM

I've nothing to give away, I hate rich capitalists and would gladly stretch their necks


what about rich socialists?
foxes or poor people?

#89 Phil

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 03:10 PM

1. Deny it all you like; lad, but is is still true. I'll bet any money I have already contributed more to a fair and equitable society than you will ever do.

2. Ah , I remember now! Are you are one of those who believes in violent disorder to get your way?



1 You can bet all you want I'll take a £10 on that you haven't. You've called me "lad" twice now I'm 53 and probably older than you, sonny.

2 Yes I believe in social and political revolution, peacefully if it can be done but forcibly if necessary.

I've nothing to apologise for, I'm not a woolly liberal pacifist, almost all social change comes from violent tumult, look at history if you want examples.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#90 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 03:19 PM

1 You can bet all you want I'll take a £10 on that you haven't. You've called me "lad" twice now I'm 53 and probably older than you, sonny.

2 Yes I believe in social and political revolution, peacefully if it can be done but forcibly if necessary.

I've nothing to apologise for, I'm not a woolly liberal pacifist, almost all social change comes from violent tumult, look at history if you want examples.


1. As I said, lad. You see, on all fronts you know nothing.

2. 53? 53? and you've still not left that stuff behind?

3. How's the violent tumult going? Done much recently?

4. this your anthem? :laugh:

As Soon As This Pub Closes
I could have done it yesterday if I hadn't a cold,

But since I've put this pint away I've never felt so bold.

So as soon as this pub closes, as soon as this pub closes,

As soon as this pub closes, the revolution starts.

I'll shoot the aristocracy and confiscate their brass,

Create a fine democracy that's truly working class.

As soon as this pub closes, as soon as this pub closes,

As soon as this pub closes, I'll raise the banner high.


I'll fight the nasty racialists and scrap the colour bar,

And all fascist dictatorships and every commissar.

As soon as this pub closes, as soon as this pub closes,

As soon as this pub closes, I'll man the barricades.


So raise your glasses, everyone, for everything is planned,

And each and every mother's son will see the Promised Land.

As soon as this pub closes, as soon as this pub closes,

As soon as this pub closes, I think I'm going to be sick.


#91 exxile

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 03:31 PM

1 You can bet all you want I'll take a £10 on that you haven't. You've called me "lad" twice now I'm 53 and probably older than you, sonny.

2 Yes I believe in social and political revolution, peacefully if it can be done but forcibly if necessary.

I've nothing to apologise for, I'm not a woolly liberal pacifist, almost all social change comes from violent tumult, look at history if you want examples.


This is an interesting twist on the use of 'libertarian'. You sure you didn't mean 'librarian socialist'?

So anyway, what percentage of 18 year olds do you believe we should send to University?
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

#92 Phil

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 03:51 PM

1. As I said, lad. You see, on all fronts you know nothing.

2. 53? 53? and you've still not left that stuff behind?

3. How's the violent tumult going? Done much recently?

4. this your anthem? :laugh:

As Soon As This Pub Closes
I could have done it yesterday if I hadn't a cold,

But since I've put this pint away I've never felt so bold.

So as soon as this pub closes, as soon as this pub closes,

As soon as this pub closes, the revolution starts.

I'll shoot the aristocracy and confiscate their brass,

Create a fine democracy that's truly working class.

As soon as this pub closes, as soon as this pub closes,

As soon as this pub closes, I'll raise the banner high.


I'll fight the nasty racialists and scrap the colour bar,

And all fascist dictatorships and every commissar.

As soon as this pub closes, as soon as this pub closes,

As soon as this pub closes, I'll man the barricades.


So raise your glasses, everyone, for everything is planned,

And each and every mother's son will see the Promised Land.

As soon as this pub closes, as soon as this pub closes,

As soon as this pub closes, I think I'm going to be sick.



Mockery rather than debate? I'm disappointed sonny


This is an interesting twist on the use of 'libertarian'. You sure you didn't mean 'librarian socialist'?

So anyway, what percentage of 18 year olds do you believe we should send to University?



No twist at all there's a long established tradition of left libertarianism

http://en.wikipedia....arian_socialism


As many as can pass A levels to the required standard

Edited by Phil, 31 March 2011 - 03:52 PM.

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#93 shrek

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:24 PM

Labour were wrong to introduce top up fees in the first place but the Tories are revelling in raising them so that people from less well off backgrounds will be burdened with massive debts. This deep down is what Tories want. If I was in the position that many young people will now find themselves I very much doubt I would choose to go to university. I am very grateful for the chances I have been given and would like to see the subsequent generations also have the same opportunities.


For me to much is being made of the jump from a 6k maximum fee to a 9k maximum, if the last Labour government hadn't introduced them there is isn't a cat in hells chance the Tories would have been able to bring it in, not without a massive majority and a strong will to see out "demonstrations" that would no doubt have been on a par with what we saw for the poll tax.

For me the power still lies with future students who if they don't rush to pay these high fees in conjunction with lower numbers of foreign students with the new capping I keep hearing about can quite quickly back the government into a corner.

#94 exxile

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:55 PM

As many as can pass A levels to the required standard


This doesn't really answer the question though does it? Who should set the standard?

If the 'University of Bedfordshire' chooses to set its entry requirement to 80 UCAS points for a course which offers no tangible benefit to the student, or to society in general, then I would be of the opinion that the right to make that decision be removed from the 'University of Bedfordshire', and the course be removed.

So, what percentage of 18 year olds do you think should go to University? It is a simple enough question.
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

#95 Phil

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:31 PM

This doesn't really answer the question though does it? Who should set the standard?

If the 'University of Bedfordshire' chooses to set its entry requirement to 80 UCAS points for a course which offers no tangible benefit to the student, or to society in general, then I would be of the opinion that the right to make that decision be removed from the 'University of Bedfordshire', and the course be removed.

So, what percentage of 18 year olds do you think should go to University? It is a simple enough question.



I answered the question, I'll answer it again, as many as can pass a level to the required standard, I'll admit I don't know what proportion of A level students that is.

Who are you (or I for that matter) to decide which courses "offer no tangible benefit to the student or society"?
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#96 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:32 PM

Mockery rather than debate? I'm disappointed sonny

No twist at all there's a long established tradition of left libertarianism

http://en.wikipedia....arian_socialism


As many as can pass A levels to the required standard


Well, the A Levels were not that comprehensive if you can't recognise Alex Glasgow

Debate? Explain what you mean by violent disorder, how and when you see it being used and against whom. It alway the excuse of the violent political thug to claim that history proves them right. That is of course rubbish.

#97 Phil

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:49 PM

Well, the A Levels were not that comprehensive if you can't recognise Alex Glasgow

Debate? Explain what you mean by violent disorder, how and when you see it being used and against whom. It alway the excuse of the violent political thug to claim that history proves them right. That is of course rubbish.


I know the song, i wasn't crediting you with it, you were using it as a means of mockery. I haven't got any A levels.


By violent disorder I mean the working class using violence to to destroy the class apparatus of the ruling class, see Russia 1905 and 1918, Germany 1919-1923 Spain 1933-1938 China 1926-1939 Hungary 1956 Cuba 1959 Nicaragua 1979.

Of course I'm a "violent political thug" whereas the police and the army etc are "protectors of law and order"

violence has been a catalyst of political change as long as human societies have existed. Two examples; The English civil war which led to the overthrow of the concept of absolutist monarchy and the poll tax riots which led to the removal of Thatcher as the tories realised they'd never win another election with her.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#98 exxile

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:22 PM

I answered the question, I'll answer it again, as many as can pass a level to the required standard, I'll admit I don't know what proportion of A level students that is.

Who are you (or I for that matter) to decide which courses "offer no tangible benefit to the student or society"?


So you are not concerned that the standard is set so low that just about anyone sitting two A levels can be accepted on to a degree course somewhere?

I reckon I could sit two A levels tomorrow, in subjects I didn't take the first time around, and still get a couple of Ds.
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

#99 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:33 PM

So you are not concerned that the standard is set so low that just about anyone sitting two A levels can be accepted on to a degree course somewhere?

I reckon I could sit two A levels tomorrow, in subjects I didn't take the first time around, and still get a couple of Ds.

well it would be an improvement on first time around
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#100 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:53 PM

I know the song, i wasn't crediting you with it, you were using it as a means of mockery. I haven't got any A levels.


By violent disorder I mean the working class using violence to to destroy the class apparatus of the ruling class, see Russia 1905 and 1918, Germany 1919-1923 Spain 1933-1938 China 1926-1939 Hungary 1956 Cuba 1959 Nicaragua 1979.

Of course I'm a "violent political thug" whereas the police and the army etc are "protectors of law and order"

violence has been a catalyst of political change as long as human societies have existed. Two examples; The English civil war which led to the overthrow of the concept of absolutist monarchy and the poll tax riots which led to the removal of Thatcher as the tories realised they'd never win another election with her.


Mockery is certainly better than violence, don't you think? Its funny, though, how advocates of violence can always find justification for it. But does your jaundiced view of the police mean you won't be calling on them if another self-declared violent political thug calls? Of course, violence has has not been the only catalyst for political change and indeed most political change happens in other ways. Prague December 1989 comes to mind. and Thatcher? How long would she have stayed in office anyway. Still a good excuse for criminal behavior and damage from some, don't you think?. and German reunification in October 1990?

Anyway, I bet a night out with you and your mates is a real hoot as you overthrow the machinery of state. There's a lot for you to do and it won't come cheap.




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