16 replies to this topic

[thirteenthman]

Petero Civoniceva is contemplating hanging up his Kangaroo boots for the last time so he can play for Fiji:-

http://www.nrl.com/c...42/default.aspx

[roughyedspud]

so do i then

[deluded pom?]

It's just wrong. He's using the WC as some kind of last hurrah now his Kangaroo career is over. If he really wanted to play for Fiji so badly he'd have done it a lot earlier. This is international sport we are talking about not club football where players can choose who they want to play for. Fate should decide who you play for not you.

[thirteenthman]

It's just wrong. He's using the WC as some kind of last hurrah now his Kangaroo career is over. If he really wanted to play for Fiji so badly he'd have done it a lot earlier. This is international sport we are talking about not club football where players can choose who they want to play for. Fate should decide who you play for not you.

He won't be the only one doing this before the WC in 2013. I suspect Danny Brough may have another about turn before 2013, and wasn't the prospect of playing in this year's 4 Nations one of the factors behind Lee Briers' decision to come out of his international 'retirement'?

You could argue though, that if we didn't let players do this nobody would put their hand up to play for the smaller nations, as most would want to play in the big Eng-Aus-NZ clashes. And as our Australian friends are quick to point out, a lot of the Pacific Island players are bone fide Aussies or Kiwis anyway. Without the current rules I doubt we'd be having a 12 nation World Cup in 2 years time.

[deluded pom?]

He won't be the only one doing this before the WC in 2013. I suspect Danny Brough may have another about turn before 2013, and wasn't the prospect of playing in this year's 4 Nations one of the factors behind Lee Briers' decision to come out of his international 'retirement'?

You could argue though, that if we didn't let players do this nobody would put their hand up to play for the smaller nations, as most would want to play in the big Eng-Aus-NZ clashes. And as our Australian friends are quick to point out, a lot of the Pacific Island players are bone fide Aussies or Kiwis anyway. Without the current rules I doubt we'd be having a 12 nation World Cup in 2 years time.

Sorry mate but if they ARE bona fide Aussies then let them stay that way. Lee Briers has never put his hand up for anyone else other than Wales and has turned out in WC qualifiers. When the Aussie players do that then you might have an argument but they only want to play for the PI nations when their Kangaroos shirt has been given to someone else and they feel like a last jolly. I can hear the commentators now telling us how the Fiji captain has won 44 caps for Australia. It's cringeworthy. Someone IS putting their hands up to play for the smaller nations but are then pushed aside for the glory hunters. Pencil Carvell and Mason in this bracket too.

Edited by deluded pom?, 19 April 2011 - 06:47 PM.

[Big Picture]

He won't be the only one doing this before the WC in 2013. I suspect Danny Brough may have another about turn before 2013, and wasn't the prospect of playing in this year's 4 Nations one of the factors behind Lee Briers' decision to come out of his international 'retirement'?

You could argue though, that if we didn't let players do this nobody would put their hand up to play for the smaller nations, as most would want to play in the big Eng-Aus-NZ clashes. And as our Australian friends are quick to point out, a lot of the Pacific Island players are bone fide Aussies or Kiwis anyway. Without the current rules I doubt we'd be having a 12 nation World Cup in 2 years time.

You have a point, they need a way to make players who've played for a minor country stick with that country for the rest of their careers. My solution would be to only allow players to switch if they haven't played in a World Cup before. That is, once they play in a World Cup they're tied to that country for the rest of their career. The heritage players not wanted for the country they grew up in would have a simple choice to make then: make a permanent choice for their heritage nation or miss the World Cup. A suitable carrot is needed to get players to make that choice and maybe that could do it. The rule could be tightened subsequently as needed.

[thirteenthman]

You have a point, they need a way to make players who've played for a minor country stick with that country for the rest of their careers. My solution would be to only allow players to switch if they haven't played in a World Cup before. That is, once they play in a World Cup they're tied to that country for the rest of their career. The heritage players not wanted for the country they grew up in would have a simple choice to make then: make a permanent choice for their heritage nation or miss the World Cup. A suitable carrot is needed to get players to make that choice and maybe that could do it. The rule could be tightened subsequently as needed.

I completely agree with what you're saying, and I do agree with with deluded pom's posts on this subject, however the only way you'll ever get a situation where players are prepared to commit to playing for one of the 'smaller' nations permanently is if those countries are treated as equals to England, Australia and NZ. By that, I mean having a proper meaningful international programme for all nations - not just the seemingly ad hoc arrangements we have at present below the 4 Nations.

The other thing we have to remember is that, whether we like it or not, the majority of professional players come from England, Australia and NZ. If you want a competitive team in the likes of Ireland or Samoa you have to either go with the 'heritage' players or accept that those nations won't be anywhere near a level to compete in 4 Nations and World Cups. Which do we want - international teams with genuine locals playing at a much lower standard or a potentially competitive international game using 'heritage' players?

As for the current mess, bringing back the Great Britain side would immediately help the situation here as we wouldn't get the ridiculous nation hopping we've seen these past 2 years. The problem in Australia is State of Origin. As long as qualification for that depends on making yourself available for Australia, we will continue to see potential players for Pacific Nations pledge their allegiance to Australia. But, as seems to be the norm in Rugby League, self-interest is put before the good of the game.

[deluded pom?]

Totally agree with you thirteenth. The lack of any regular opportunities for the second tier nations to play the Big Three is a big stumbling block for international RL. England could and should be playing Samoa just before the 4N. Instead Samoa will play Ireland, Scotland and England reserves in a tour that will lose thousands of pounds.

[thirteenthman]

Totally agree with you thirteenth. The lack of any regular opportunities for the second tier nations to play the Big Three is a big stumbling block for international RL. England could and should be playing Samoa just before the 4N. Instead Samoa will play Ireland, Scotland and England reserves in a tour that will lose thousands of pounds.

Agreed. It's no wonder players turn their backs on the Celtic and Pacific Nations in favour of the big 3 - and why nations like Samoa never develop as RL playing nations. Again, it all comes back to self-interest which largely stems from the fact the sport worldwide is dominated, and to a large extent controlled by, professional clubs in a couple of countries.

[Big Picture]

Agreed. It's no wonder players turn their backs on the Celtic and Pacific Nations in favour of the big 3 - and why nations like Samoa never develop as RL playing nations. Again, it all comes back to self-interest which largely stems from the fact the sport worldwide is dominated, and to a large extent controlled by, professional clubs in a couple of countries.

Realistically there's no way the Pacific nations will ever develop significantly -- they're too small and poor for that. Being small and out of the way, they'll never be a big enough draw to play money-making Internationals and are unlikely to produce many pro players themselves. The Celtic nations are more likely to develop over time, but the sport really needs more major countries to boost the International game.

[deluded pom?]

Realistically there's no way the Pacific nations will ever develop significantly -- they're too small and poor for that. Being small and out of the way, they'll never be a big enough draw to play money-making Internationals and are unlikely to produce many pro players themselves. The Celtic nations are more likely to develop over time, but the sport really needs more major countries to boost the International game.

Which is why I believe the RLIF (or whoever is reponsible for the international game) should be doing their utmost to create another professional competition. There's too much reliance and emphasis on the NRL and the SLE for both finance and player production. The only option I can see on the horizon is the USA.

[Exiled Wiganer]

I think it's great. Will it help the rest of Fiji team? Yes. Will it be good for the World Cup? Yes. We need all the help we can get to put a competitve tournament together. If allowing star players choose for which of the countries they qualify for contributes to that the pros massively outweigh the cons. We won the Ashes recently. Last year we won the 20 20 World Cup. Were these tarnished because of the central role played by South Africans and an Irishman? Not for an instance. This is good for the game and only keeps us in step with every other sport in the world.
We're not a laughing stock because no one pays us any attention and no one pays us any attention because we have an under-developed and under-sold international game. The likes of Hayne and Petero playing for Fiji, which after they have stronger ties to than Trott, Pietersen and Morgan have to England cricket then we should welcome them with open arms.

[Big Picture]

Which is why I believe the RLIF (or whoever is reponsible for the international game) should be doing their utmost to create another professional competition. There's too much reliance and emphasis on the NRL and the SLE for both finance and player production. The only option I can see on the horizon is the USA.

I totally agree with you there, but realistically that's quite a way off. The only chance it would ever get off the ground is if it's run by Americans who structure it just like every other American pro sport and get American investors involved. The proposed NRLUS came across like more of expat-run organization, and I can't see Americans getting onboard with something run by expats. It has to be run by people who understand how Americans think and how they see the world, no other approach is viable.

[thirteenthman]

I think it's great. Will it help the rest of Fiji team? Yes. Will it be good for the World Cup? Yes. We need all the help we can get to put a competitve tournament together. If allowing star players choose for which of the countries they qualify for contributes to that the pros massively outweigh the cons. We won the Ashes recently. Last year we won the 20 20 World Cup. Were these tarnished because of the central role played by South Africans and an Irishman? Not for an instance. This is good for the game and only keeps us in step with every other sport in the world.
We're not a laughing stock because no one pays us any attention and no one pays us any attention because we have an under-developed and under-sold international game. The likes of Hayne and Petero playing for Fiji, which after they have stronger ties to than Trott, Pietersen and Morgan have to England cricket then we should welcome them with open arms.

Agreed. As I said in an earlier post, this is realistically the only way to get anything approaching a competitive World Cup. And to be fair to Petero, if he does play for Fiji he's stated it will only be if his Australia career is over. That's a damn sight better than swapping between nations every other year.

[deluded pom?]

I totally agree with you there, but realistically that's quite a way off. The only chance it would ever get off the ground is if it's run by Americans who structure it just like every other American pro sport and get American investors involved. The proposed NRLUS came across like more of expat-run organization, and I can't see Americans getting onboard with something run by expats. It has to be run by people who understand how Americans think and how they see the world, no other approach is viable.

It doesn't matter to me how it's run BP, although it would be far better if the people on the ground ran the show, just as long as we could get another pro comp off the ground.

[deluded pom?]

I think it's great. Will it help the rest of Fiji team?

Will it help the rest of the Fiji team? He'll be 39 by the time the WC comes around and someone who has done the hard yards will have to step aside to make way for him. At the end of the day he's still an Aussie with secondary Fijian heritage. This is a last hurrah for Civonaceva. If he felt that strongly for his Fijian roots then he would have declared for Fiji much sooner.

[Big Picture]

It doesn't matter to me how it's run BP, although it would be far better if the people on the ground ran the show, just as long as we could get another pro comp off the ground.

The point I was trying to make is that to get it off the ground will take American investors. Selling them on it will require showing them that the organizers understand how the pro sports business works in the US, and that's far more likely if the league's run by Americans than expats. There's a model that works in the US market and that's what organizers need to have in place.