151 replies to this topic

[paley]

What are the board's thoughts?

It is looking inevitable they will default, revert to their own currency and devalue.

Their current debts are unsustainable and piling on more debt won't achieve anything. The IMF are involved which is always a dreadful sign as their solution to everything is sell all your assets to help their mates out.

[Johnoco]

Some geezer called Andreas Whittam Smith sums it up pretty well in todays i. 'They can't pay or won't pay and the sooner we accept that the better'

ie it's too late. He likens it to a man owing £1M and only earning £30K, no matter how hard you try or do without, you're never going to pay it back.

[Tiny Tim]

Had to smile at the ads at the top of the page that this thread is throwing up....'Buy Properties in Greece'


Maybe not.

[Griff9of13]

Had to smile at the ads at the top of the page that this thread is throwing up....'Buy Properties in Greece'

Maybe not.

Well, not yet. But if you wait a bit...

[Li0nhead]

Had to smile at the ads at the top of the page that this thread is throwing up....'Buy Properties in Greece'


Maybe not.

I geta load of 'write off your debts' services....

Pahaps we could send the links to the Greek govt?

According to the experts it simply a case of tax collection:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/14/greece-taxes-debt-opinions-contributors-richard-murphy.html

"Average tax payments in Greece should, if tax were paid, be more than 30% of average income. So, when Greece's current deficit is running at just over 13% of its GDP it's easy to see that if 30% tax was collected on the 30% shadow economy, then the deficit would fall to about 4% of GDP overnight --very close to the target, which is 3%. In a nutshell, Greece's problems could be almost solved if only all tax due was paid."

Ok that peice is from last year but surly the greeks should be concentrating on collecting people dues.

[Griff9of13]

I geta load of 'write off your debts' services....

Pahaps we could send the links to the Greek govt?

According to the experts it simply a case of tax collection:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/14/greece-taxes-debt-opinions-contributors-richard-murphy.html

"Average tax payments in Greece should, if tax were paid, be more than 30% of average income. So, when Greece's current deficit is running at just over 13% of its GDP it's easy to see that if 30% tax was collected on the 30% shadow economy, then the deficit would fall to about 4% of GDP overnight --very close to the target, which is 3%. In a nutshell, Greece's problems could be almost solved if only all tax due was paid."

Ok that peice is from last year but surly the greeks should be concentrating on collecting people dues.

I used to live in Greece back in my yoof. They don't 'do' tax much, or they certainly didn't when I lived there. They tended to operate a 'cash' economy where everything is paid in that way. When I was there this even included the electricity, where a bloke came round to collect every month.

It is quite possible that even though the country is on it's financial knees, large parts of the population may not be suffering quite so much.

[Johnoco]

I geta load of 'write off your debts' services....

Pahaps we could send the links to the Greek govt?

Have they tried Ocean Finance? You can consolidate all your debts into one manageable repayment.

[tonyXIII]

I geta load of 'write off your debts' services....

Pahaps we could send the links to the Greek govt?

According to the experts it simply a case of tax collection:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/14/greece-taxes-debt-opinions-contributors-richard-murphy.html

"Average tax payments in Greece should, if tax were paid, be more than 30% of average income. So, when Greece's current deficit is running at just over 13% of its GDP it's easy to see that if 30% tax was collected on the 30% shadow economy, then the deficit would fall to about 4% of GDP overnight --very close to the target, which is 3%. In a nutshell, Greece's problems could be almost solved if only all tax due was paid."

Ok that peice is from last year but surly the greeks should be concentrating on collecting people dues.

When you put it like that, it sounds very easy. The reality is different. Two examples, one fairly clear, the other as clear as mud.

Firstly, a taverna proprietor that I know openly admits that he doesn't pay his tax. I suspect he pays a certain amount - enough to keep the taxman off his back - but nowhere near what he should. When I asked him if he didn't think he should pay his tax properly, he simply said that he would pay his tax when they (the authorities - politicians and the like) paid theirs. I believe that most Greeks share that sentiment.

Secondly, I took my car in for repair. When it came to paying, I was asked if I wanted to pay the whole bill or just some of it. The guy tried to explain how it worked. There were two bills. One was for parts and was 'fixed'. The other was for the labour and was open to some form of negotiation which ultimately meant paying less tax. It sounded iffy and I wasn't sure I'd understood the explanation fully, so I just paid in full. I should add that this was not a bloke working from his home, but the main dealer for my make of car in my town. If an operation like this can 'fiddle' its tax, they all can.

They all do. Fixing Greece's tax collection shortfall will not be straightforward. If they could fix it, it would solve the debt problem in a few years.

[Methven Hornet]

What are the board's thoughts?

It is looking inevitable they will default, revert to their own currency and devalue.

Their current debts are unsustainable and piling on more debt won't achieve anything. The IMF are involved which is always a dreadful sign as their solution to everything is sell all your assets to help their mates out.

If Greece defaulted on its debts, then reverted to the Drachma (how the hell do they do that in practical terms? ), the currency wouldn't so much devalue as reduce to infinitesimally small values.

The real problem for the rest of us would be that those financial institutions that hold Greek debt would be up ****-creek. Bank Bail Out 2 - sounds like one of these crappy sequels.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

will it make holidays cheaper?
I write as a fan of the Greek Islands. I'm sure Padge is keen to know as well

[bowes]

will it make holidays cheaper?
I write as a fan of the Greek Islands. I'm sure Padge is keen to know as well

You'll be able to buy one of the islands soon.

[Northern Sol]

Some geezer called Andreas Whittam Smith sums it up pretty well in todays i. 'They can't pay or won't pay and the sooner we accept that the better'

ie it's too late. He likens it to a man owing £1M and only earning £30K, no matter how hard you try or do without, you're never going to pay it back.

The thing he didn't mention is that much or indeed most of the debt is monies owed by the Greek state to Greek banks and Greek people (i.e. pensions and the like). If they defaulted then it would be economic meltdown for Greece.

The Greeks don't want to reform, they want everybody else to bail them out, I think the best solution would be to cut their EU subsidies off completely, use the cash to pay off debts owed to non-Greeks and let the Greeks do what they wish to. If they want to borrow more cash than they can afford (assuming anyone would lend to them ever again), spend it on pointless non-jobs for socialist party supporters and then forget to collect any taxes then they ought to deal with the consequences themselves.

The Greek government even presented false statistics to the EU in order to get into the Euro in the first place. And the EU being the EU was too busy with some Eurofederalist fantasy to even care that the figures were fraudulent.

Edited by Northern Sol, 23 June 2011 - 07:42 PM.

[bobbruce]

You'll be able to buy one of the islands soon.

Nice will they be on EBay i might put a £20 bid in on Kos

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Nice will they be on EBay i might put a £20 bid in on Kos

you can have it mate
I'm staking a £50 claim for zante

[bobbruce]

you can have it mate
I'm staking a £50 claim for zante

Keep it quiet though we don't want them all getting onto it

[CrushersForever]

What are the board's thoughts?

Thank God for Greece. Ireland doesn't look so bad in comparison...

[Northern Sol]

Thank God for Greece. Ireland doesn't look so bad in comparison...

It will if they default. A Greek default will have huge implications for Ireland.

[Ullman]

It will if they default. A Greek default will have huge implications for Ireland.

Wouldn't that in turn have serious implications for the UK?

[Bedford Roughyed]

Bailing them out will cost us billions.

Letting them fail will cost us billions (bailing out more banks, euro plumeting etc).

Not much of a silver lining in there!

[paley]

Bailing them out will cost us billions.

Letting them fail will cost us billions (bailing out more banks, euro plumeting etc).

Not much of a silver lining in there!

May as well take the hit now. No need to bail out banks though, sod 'em.