39 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

When did the 25 years climb back start? It's a crucial question for me. The way my drinking's going I could be pushing up daisies before I see any silverware at the Giants.

In 1988 your club was just about the worst club in the league.......

Springfield, Bramley, Runcorn, Carlisle and Mansfield were all much better than your club.

By 1998 you had managed to creep into SL but were the joke side of the comp.

You scored 17 victories in 109 games, embarrassed yourselves "merging" with Sheffield, before you had to make way for Widnes.

In 2003 Ken Davey managed to help you recover from what some thought was a terminal illness.

To hope that Fartown could lift trophies only 9 years on from that is pie in the sky.

Your club is propped up by a "sugar daddy" (NO apologies for that term) in an area of the games heartlands that is a mess*, with only Leeds able to compete with RL's big guns.....

The only way forward is to do what the successful clubs do which is bring on top junior talent, alongside top class international talent.

Now list me your top junior talents, and top class international talents, and we can take the joint analysis on from there......


* West Yorkshire RL is at a low ebb. At one point this year Leeds nearly imploded. There seems to me to be no doubt a second West Yorks club can rise and compete at the top level. With Davey's money and the clubs history behind it, it could be Fartown. There is however a lot of catching up to do...

[Wellsy4HullFC]

In 1988 your club was just about the worst club in the league.......

Springfield, Bramley, Runcorn, Carlisle and Mansfield were all much better than your club.

By 1998 you had managed to creep into SL but were the joke side of the comp.

You scored 17 victories in 109 games, embarrassed yourselves "merging" with Sheffield, before you had to make way for Widnes.

In 2003 Ken Davey managed to help you recover from what some thought was a terminal illness.

To hope that Fartown could lift trophies only 9 years on from that is pie in the sky.

Your club is propped up by a "sugar daddy" (NO apologies for that term) in an area of the games heartlands that is a mess*, with only Leeds able to compete with RL's big guns.....

The only way forward is to do what the successful clubs do which is bring on top junior talent, alongside top class international talent.

Now list me your top junior talents, and top class international talents, and we can take the joint analysis on from there......


* West Yorkshire RL is at a low ebb. At one point this year Leeds nearly imploded. There seems to me to be no doubt a second West Yorks club can rise and compete at the top level. With Davey's money and the clubs history behind it, it could be Fartown. There is however a lot of catching up to do...

Is this tongue in cheek?

Remember Hull Sharks? How long until Hull FC won a trophy after that farce?

Huddersfield have 5 players from their academy in their starting 17. There are plenty more from the academy in the squad, as well as plenty of young English players they've picked up from other clubs and developed at their club. Their academy is really starting to bare fruit at the moment and soon they will be winning trophies in my opinion, just not next season I reckon.

[The Parksider]

1. Is this tongue in cheek?

2. Remember Hull Sharks? How long until Hull FC won a trophy after that farce?

3. Huddersfield have 5 players from their academy in their starting 17. There are plenty more from the academy in the squad, as well as plenty of young English players they've picked up from other clubs and developed at their club. Their academy is really starting to bare fruit at the moment and soon they will be winning trophies in my opinion, just not next season I reckon.

1. There's really no need for remarks like that, we're all entitled to an opinion without that sort of remark.

2. I was delighted when Hull won the cup, and shouted for them at Old Trafford. I remember their team at the time with that front row of Dowes, Swain and Carvell, and behind them Cooke and Horne steering things around and the deadly combo of Yeaman and Raynor.

I understand (and respect) your point because Hull achieved something pretty quickly post their Sharks and Hull-Gateshead phase. A few home grown gems but a lot of bought in players.

3. I think that Huddersfield as you indicate have looked to bring in the best they can find including young players from other clubs just like Hull did, but I feel Superleague has moved on and all clubs are now concentrating more on developing players through their academy - so Fartown have their share of good young players - I appreciate that of course - but so do most other clubs and the Fartown kids will need to be better than those coming in at Leeds, Saints, Wigan and warrington if they are to lift trophies.

Most trophy winners also have an international star or two somewhere in their make up. Fartown's talisman Brett Hodgson sadly decided to look for success elsewhere.

So I think it's fair to conclude that to win trophies Fartown need to have youngsters coming through/developing that better those at their rivals, and need a couple of big stars at the helm. I don't see that.

[The Parksider]

"Their academy is really starting to bare fruit at the moment and soon they will be winning trophies in my opinion, just not next season I reckon".

I can see that as in your 2012 final standings thread you predict Fartown for 7th. place in Superleague 2012.

The average position across all the opinions was Fartown for 6th. So you don't rate them for next year.

Do you know how the Fartown academy has been faring this last few years? Have their young players been outdoing the academies of the top clubs??

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1. There's really no need for remarks like that, we're all entitled to an opinion without that sort of remark.

2. I was delighted when Hull won the cup, and shouted for them at Old Trafford. I remember their team at the time with that front row of Dowes, Swain and Carvell, and behind them Cooke and Horne steering things around and the deadly combo of Yeaman and Raynor.

I understand (and respect) your point because Hull achieved something pretty quickly post their Sharks and Hull-Gateshead phase. A few home grown gems but a lot of bought in players.

3. I think that Huddersfield as you indicate have looked to bring in the best they can find including young players from other clubs just like Hull did, but I feel Superleague has moved on and all clubs are now concentrating more on developing players through their academy - so Fartown have their share of good young players - I appreciate that of course - but so do most other clubs and the Fartown kids will need to be better than those coming in at Leeds, Saints, Wigan and warrington if they are to lift trophies.

Most trophy winners also have an international star or two somewhere in their make up. Fartown's talisman Brett Hodgson sadly decided to look for success elsewhere.

So I think it's fair to conclude that to win trophies Fartown need to have youngsters coming through/developing that better those at their rivals, and need a couple of big stars at the helm. I don't see that.

1. It wasn't a remark, it was a question. I honestly didn't think anyone could suggest it is "pie in the sky" to win something in less than a decade after being relegated. At the end of the day, they were 3rd in SL two years ago and favourites to win the Challenge Cup. To suggest it's pie in the sky is well off, hence the question.

Your, as usually, over the top touchy remark suggests that it wasn't. You really need to grow a thicker skin lad.

2. We brought in a lot of young players and developed them from there. Raynor, Carvell, Whiting, Dowes. Some other talented but discarded young English players in Thackray, Saxton and Briscoe, and some quality overseas players in Swain and Blacklock (although I personally thought the latter was past it for us). Add to that our academy products in Horne, Cooke, King and Yeaman.

This was in a season that we finished 5th in what I thought was a pretty average year for us, 3 of the then "Big 4" above us (this was around the time of Wigan's implosion) and Wire + Johns in 4th. Pretty similar to how it'd be for Huddersfield this year.

3. Agree with this, which is why I don't quite think they're there yet. But players like Brough and Robinson are international class when they're on form. Their backs are young but more experienced. They have some huge forwards. They're not far off at all.

The only reason I have them in 7th in my predictions for next season is mainly down to me wondering if they've come through their problems with form (if they have a poor run of form to start the season on top of the poor run to end it, would there be a possibility of Brown getting the boot you think?). That, and I really want to believe that Hull will do better than them!

[The Parksider]

1. You really need to grow a thicker skin lad.

2. The only reason I have them in 7th in my predictions for next season is mainly down to me wondering if they've come through their problems with form.

1. I have a very thick skin and have taken the most ignorant drivel from the keyboard warriors with a pinch of salt and a report to the Mods fr a long time now. Your not a keyboard warrior, but an intelligent, fair minded well mannered guy, you just suprise me at times.

2. I think the cliche that your only as good as your league position/results is a good one. I can't allow you to use "form" as an excuse. I went to the two big Leeds/Fartown clashes at the end of the season and they were well outplayed and outclassed by Leeds.

But you based your future predictions of them winning trophies on the young academy players Fartown have coming through. Again I suggest that Wigan, Leeds, Wire and Saints all have much better production lines, plus these four attract the cream of the overseas stars.

So who are the Fartown young guns to look out for??. Certainly Wardle.....

Edit - just checked the academy table, Fartown were near to the bottom in the under 20's section?

Edited by The Parksider, 11 December 2011 - 11:36 AM.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1. I have a very thick skin and have taken the most ignorant drivel from the keyboard warriors with a pinch of salt and a report to the Mods fr a long time now. Your not a keyboard warrior, but an intelligent, fair minded well mannered guy, you just suprise me at times.

Well you react OTT to a lot of things, including innocent questions. It probably causes more thread drift than the original thing that winds you up.

2. I think the cliche that your only as good as your league position/results is a good one. I can't allow you to use "form" as an excuse. I went to the two big Leeds/Fartown clashes at the end of the season and they were well outplayed and outclassed by Leeds.

But you based your future predictions of them winning trophies on the young academy players Fartown have coming through. Again I suggest that Wigan, Leeds, Wire and Saints all have much better production lines, plus these four attract the cream of the overseas stars.

So who are the Fartown young guns to look out for??. Certainly Wardle.....

Edit - just checked the academy table, Fartown were near to the bottom in the under 20's section?

Form is temporary, class is permanent they say. However, class teams don't always win trophies, and form teams often do. That's all it takes. Leeds where not the best team in the league this season, they just hit form when it mattered. Opposite of Huddersfield. I remember Huddersfield stuffing Saints and beating Warrington this year as well, means nothing.

I didn't base my predictions on their academy, I based it on numerous things (including the academy). No team in the league has a champion side based purely on the academy.

How well a side does in the youth league is no indication of the talent that can come through either. Often teams rely on a lot of youngsters in their first team, significantly weakening their U20s side. Teams also loan out a lot of their youth to get better experience.

[The Parksider]

I didn't base my predictions on their academy, I based it on numerous things (including the academy). No team in the league has a champion side based purely on the academy.

You said................

"Their academy is really starting to bare fruit at the moment and soon they will be winning trophies in my opinion"

Tell you what, If Giantstrides or Steve May think the fruits of their academy will help them win trophies soon then I'll concede the point.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

You said................

"Their academy is really starting to bare fruit at the moment and soon they will be winning trophies in my opinion"

Tell you what, If Giantstrides or Steve May think the fruits of their academy will help them win trophies soon then I'll concede the point.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that's the only reason they'll do well. It's a huge factor, but that alone doesn't get you a champion side. Look at every team that's won the league. Their side isn't based purely on their academy players. There's a bit of everything. You've got to get all the bits right, and Huddersfield are starting to get that way.

You don't have to concede your point, as it is an opinion. But if all it takes is for someone else to tell you the opposite based purely on the fact that they're a fan of that club, then you can't really believe much in that point. I wouldn't want someone to change their opinion of Hull FC just because I think differently.

[The Parksider]

1. (the acedemy's) a huge factor, but that alone doesn't get you a champion side. Look at every team that's won the league. Their side isn't based purely on their academy players.

2. You don't have to concede your point, as it is an opinion. But if all it takes is for someone else to tell you the opposite based purely on the fact that they're a fan of that club....

1. Of course the academy is a huge factor. Problem is the Fartown academy is in it's early stages in terms of producing the quality of players the cup winning sides produce from their academy. You did say "Their academy is really starting to bare fruit at the moment and soon they will be winning trophies in my opinion".

If having really top class overseas players in your side like Brent Webb, Matt Gidley, Matt King, Jeff Lima etc is another factor, as I say Hodgson hi-tailed it to a club he thought may win something.

So I don't see enough of the "factors" neccessary to win cups at Fartown yet unless you can point me to other factors.

2. I see no reason respecting such as GS and SM's opinions and taking them on board. I suspect they will know their club, it's ambitions, it's capabilities and it's playing staff better than both of us put together.

[Steve May]

When did the 25 years climb back start? It's a crucial question for me. The way my drinking's going I could be pushing up daisies before I see any silverware at the Giants.

When Mick Murphy, Dave Parker and Jim Collins bought the club in 1990 or thereabouts.

[Steve May]

Most trophy winners also have an international star or two somewhere in their make up. Fartown's talisman Brett Hodgson sadly decided to look for success elsewhere.

Actually he decided to take the offer of a two year contract rather than the one year contract he was being offered at Huddersfield.

[Steve May]

1. Of course the academy is a huge factor. Problem is the Fartown academy is in it's early stages in terms of producing the quality of players the cup winning sides produce from their academy. You did say "Their academy is really starting to bare fruit at the moment and soon they will be winning trophies in my opinion".

The harsh truth is that probably only Wigan, Saints and Leeds really have top class junior development at the moment. The rest, including Huddersfield, are following behind. No doubt fans of lots of clubs will chip in and say "what about Hull KR, Wire, Widnes, Cas, blah blah" but when you take the blinkers it still remains the case that most clubs are off the pace. It needs to change of course.

That said, the maths of it is that a club only needs to produce one or perhaps two young players a year to replenish the first team. The Huddersfield Academy setup is doing that pretty well now and has been for a couple of years. What's not happening is a large surplus of young players feeding into other SL clubs, or the emergence of any undisputed World Class talents. So far.

[Steve May]

How well a side does in the youth league is no indication of the talent that can come through either. Often teams rely on a lot of youngsters in their first team, significantly weakening their U20s side. Teams also loan out a lot of their youth to get better experience.

This is true. I don't think Huddersfield take the U20 competition very seriously. They tend to ship young players who are any good out on loan to Championship clubs rather than put them in the U20s. I seem to recall Nathan Brown saying at some point that he feels the standard in the U20s wasn't high enough to push most players development.


Halifax, Batley and Barrow seem to be common destinations for young Huddersfield lads making their way into the game.

[The Parksider]

The harsh truth is that probably only Wigan, Saints and Leeds really have top class junior development at the moment. The rest, including Huddersfield, are following behind. No doubt fans of lots of clubs will chip in and say "what about Hull KR, Wire, Widnes, Cas, blah blah" but when you take the blinkers it still remains the case that most clubs are off the pace. It needs to change of course.

That said, the maths of it is that a club only needs to produce one or perhaps two young players a year to replenish the first team. The Huddersfield Academy setup is doing that pretty well now and has been for a couple of years. What's not happening is a large surplus of young players feeding into other SL clubs, or the emergence of any undisputed World Class talents. So far.

Thanks for that Steve,

I always go back to Hetherington in the early part of SL declaring Leeds would "produce their own players" and assigning Dean Bell the job. He then soon went to Wigan to do that job for them. There is of course "producing players" and producing top class players, I appreciate the "maths" - you need a throughput of proportion to get the one or two a year.

Even out of that one or two "replenishing the first team" there needs to be that extra class for cup success and I suppose at Leeds you could say that McGuire, Sinfield, JJB, Ablett, Smith, Burrow, Watkins, Jones-Bishop, Hall, McShane etc have given the club a bigger share of the class players.

The "mechanics" as opposed to the maths is interesting. We don't simply see the young players from an area go to the local academy. They are of course prepared to travel, especially the top prospects. So the top clubs, attractive to the best juniors, get an advantage by signing the top juniors not just from under the noses of championship clubs, but also rival SL clubs. Wasn't Wardle from the Bradford area but felt he'd have better prospects with Fartown? Burrow was apparently from Castleford.

So just having an academy will supply players, but if you want it to supply cup winning players you have to have the muscle, wether financially or success wise or probably both to attract the very best.

From next year there'll be five SL academies in one small area of Lancashire, and equally five in one small area of Yorkshire. The battle begins getting the best local kids to sign for you and not one of the other four or even nine??

Clearly over the recent years there hasn't been enough young players capable of meeting the pro standard, hence all the imports, so again we'll have ten academies looking for young players of likely pro standard, and there aren't enough which of course has led to the RFL working hard on promoting and extending Junior RL geographically to avoid imports.

It's not just an academy system that's needed - a scouting system will be very important too to find those players that aren't all on the doorstep.

Edited by The Parksider, 12 December 2011 - 08:08 AM.

[The Parksider]

I seem to recall Nathan Brown saying at some point that he feels the standard in the U20s wasn't high enough to push most players development.Halifax, Batley and Barrow seem to be common destinations for young Huddersfield lads making their way into the game.

Back to feeder clubs??

No - onward to a feeder league!!

When will the Under 20's be fully replaced by the Championship??

We already have clubs in Championship 1, being geared up with Superleague clubs.

[Ant]

Why not, it makes sense. And didnt Leeds do this with Bramley some years ago (start of SL)

My first thought of when the Giants started their climb back was 1989 - so we have 2 more years to go

And after a couple of cup finals and some semis in recent seasons its still growing. But there is absolutely no argument that the Giants need to win something to kick on. Its getting close though.

They have the foundations right, and long term plans in place for the continued growth and success of the club. The days of skirting disaster are long gone thankfully and Ken Davey is working to both make the club the premier club in Yorkshire but also to make it self sustaining - and is close on both accounts.

The team is healthily populated by home grown players, some of whome might grow to be top class internationals. They also have some seasoned players who can, on their day, challenge the very best in the world. I do feel like the team is missing one real "marquee" name to add that unnacountable sparkle. Who that might be and in what position is another question.

I was about to say the days of us signing journeymen aussies are also long gone, but then remembered Jamie Simpson was still on the books.

[TBC]

Ken Davy has undoubtedly been a 'sugar daddy'. However, over the last few years his aim has been to get the club to a point where they are not reliant on his dosh. He's taken on board the weaknesses highlighted by each franchise bid and concentrated in these areas - namely junior development and supporter base.

Damien McGrath was recruited from Leicester Tigers over 3 years ago to restructure the academy and to put inplace a progression path for young kids which takes account not only of their playing needs but also makes sure their educational needs are also met. His 3 years came to a close this summer. We saw the U16's tour Australia (I think for the first time ever) and it is these kids and the ones that follow that will hopefully bear the fruit not the U20's as previously mentioned.

There are now close ties with local clubs and schools which should go some way to preventing talented players drifting to other clubs. There was a time not long ago when we lost academy players to other clubs and now we actually attract them. Joe Wardle from Bradford and Greg Eden from Cas are 2 examples of players who have turned down contracts at their clubs to join Hudds.

We are still a way off your Wigans, Leeds and Saints but the gap is slowly closing and only further hard work to turn the talented juniors into super league players (and winning a trophy) will convince anybody (including me) that the Giants are a top club.

The OP asked is the appointment of Robbie H-P a shrewd move - well it's another brick in a big wall and definately a step in the right direction. How far the wall is off completeion is anybody's guess - I just hope we get to see the topping out ceremony.

[Steve May]

So just having an academy will supply players, but if you want it to supply cup winning players you have to have the muscle, wether financially or success wise or probably both to attract the very best.

...

It's not just an academy system that's needed - a scouting system will be very important too to find those players that aren't all on the doorstep.

Facilities. And good staff.

A young kid starting out will certainly look to his salary, but he also wants to develop as a player and as a person. What will attract him is a setup that will do that. He doesn't want to be training in a public gym or on a park pitch. He wants, and needs, top class facilities to support him as he progresses through his career.

I'm not sure what the deal is with the franchise awards, but I think the training facilities need to be factored in there. I'm no expert but it seems to me that an SL player needs a top notch weights room, a decent swimming pool, a large indoor area, maybe an all weather pitch, a selection of meeting rooms including one big enough that every player on the club's books can sit down to listen to the coaching staff, an IT setup that provides them with facilities to review matches, clips selected by the coaches, training logs. There's a bunch of support stuff that an SL clubs should be doing that would be unimaginable to a player from the start of SL, let alone 30 or 40 years ago.

As well, I think you need a genuine commitment by the club to support a player's training and education outside the game. All players are one bad injury from putting up scaffolding for a living, and the harsh fact is that most players in a club's junior setup will never make a living out of the game. All players at a club should be required to train in some way for a life outside the game right from the moment they start out. For some players that might mean a law degree, for others it might mean training as a sparky. Doesn't matter, as long as they aren't chucked on the scrap heap when it all comes to an end.

Once you've found a lad and got him into your setup, that's just the start. It's not "This Sporting Life" anymore.

[The Parksider]

Three great posts there.....